The expanding Israel-Hamas war

[rareboy]

So today, Israel took the war right into Beirut, killing a raft of the most senior Hamas leadership.

Including Saleh Al-Arouri, deputy head of Hamas, Abu Amer, leader of Hamas ops in Lebanon, Smair Fandi and Azzma Al Aqraa.

Beirut is pissed and Hamas in Gaza have said they will cease talks on hostages and ceasefires with the assassinations.

 

[jmyers95628]

It is why we watch no televised media coverage.

Only news is from print reports.

Certainly, a massacre at a music festival must have made the heads of TV news orgs as hard as a rock.

I’m seriously getting to this point too. And now, news outlets are reporting that “the US & its allies are growing weary of Netanyahu’s unwillingness to give an end date of the siege.” Um, apparently not weary enough to raise a fucking finger to stop Israel from killing more innocent ppl though. Seriously, Israel has been playing a game of chicken with the Palestinians for decades now, and when Palestinians have finally had enough of Israel’s bullshit, they retaliate, bc let’s face it, you can only kick a dog so much before it bites you. Israel has been encouraging Jewish settlers to encroach upon Palestinian land for decades, and it’s happening right now. Israeli settlers feel emboldened by the success of prior settlers, and they continue with their campaign of intimidation, fear, theft, and now, mass-murder.

 

[opinterph]

As long as Muslims think there are 72 virgins waiting for them

Not many of them actualy believe in that 27 virgins​

To be fair, the belief in 72 virgins is not a monolithic concept within the Islamic world.

Misconceptions about the belief in 72 virgins have, at times, fueled Islamophobia and reinforced negative perceptions of Islam. By debunking these misconceptions, we can contribute to a more nuanced and unbiased view of Islam, recognizing the diversity within the Muslim community and the depth of its theological traditions.

Headline: Unraveling the Meaning of 72 Virgins in Islam (Religions Facts; July 24, 2023)

 

[rareboy]

I stand upbraided.

And I would say that I have been very clear over the last 17 years here that I reject the notion of Islam as a monolithic religion.

But I would say that we have seen cynical extremist theologians seeking to inflame young muslim men to violence preaching this doctrine.

 

[Norri]

Seriously, Israel has been playing a game of chicken with the Palestinians for decades now, and when Palestinians have finally had enough of Israel’s bullshit, they retaliate, bc let’s face it, you can only kick a dog so much before it bites you.

In the Jewish historical memory they have been the dog that gets repeatedly kicked and while most of the world sees them doing the kicking now the irony here is I don’t think they see that at all. It’s as if their past abuse throughout history has put them beyond the judgement of those who have victimized them in the past. War is no time for introspection I suppose.

 

[TX-Beau]

In the Jewish historical memory they have been the dog that gets repeatedly kicked and while most of the world sees them doing the kicking now the irony here is I don’t think they see that at all. It’s as if their past abuse throughout history has put them beyond the judgement of those who have victimized them in the past. War is no time for introspection I suppose.

I didn't victimize Israel, and they are acting like the abusers, not the victims. It's folly if they think they have some right to murder with impunity because of history. I don't think that is the opinion of all Israelis, I know it's not the opinion of all Jews. This is the end result of decades of religious fundamentalism and right-wing policy. Jews, Muslims, Christians, that same set is always the bloody abuser.

A whole lot of people rightly or wrongly have been slow to call Israel out for its ethnic cleansing, violence, and forced displacements because of history. That was a mistake.

As long as there is a right-wing pseudo-fascist in power in Israel, I want nothing to do with Israeli policy. Stop the money, stop the tacit support.

 

[rareboy]

In other ironic/cynical news today, the UAE Foreign Ministry calls for a humanitarian ceasefire in Gaza to end the bloodshed and facilitate the immediate delivery of relief and humanitarian aid.

Surely for a war they likely also helped Hamas finance...they must have given some small thought to the possibility that once again, the civilians of Gaza would bear the savage brunt?

 

[Norri]

I didn't victimize Israel, and they are acting like the abusers, not the victims. It's folly if they think they have some right to murder with impunity because of history. I don't think that is the opinion of all Israelis, I know it's not the opinion of all Jews. This is the end result of decades of religious fundamentalism and right-wing policy. Jews, Muslims, Christians, that same set is always the bloody abuser.

A whole lot of people rightly or wrongly have been slow to call Israel out for its ethnic cleansing, violence, and forced displacements because of history. That was a mistake.

As long as there is a right-wing pseudo-fascist in power in Israel, I want nothing to do with Israeli policy. Stop the money, stop the tacit support.

I was just trying to give some insight into their thinking and its probably not the opinion of all Jews but all Jews alive today remember the Holocaust and recall that very few lifted their voices in horror at the time, certainly nothing like the outcry for the Palestinians today. If you don’t think these thoughts are uppermost in their minds you’ll never understand this war.

The current government in Israel has no interest in making peace with the Palestinians and there probably hasn’t been one since before the 1977 elections but before that I believe there was a government who was willing to cut a deal but the Palestinians were not interested. In the Camp David negotiations in 2000 Israel came up with an insulting swiss cheese layout for the proposed state and the PLO rightly rejected it but they never made a counter offer which I find more ominous than a bad map. I don’t see many victims here except for the kiddies, if Hamas had the capacity to remove the jews from that land they would lacking that ability does not make them virtuous.

 

[TX-Beau]

I was just trying to give some insight into their thinking and its probably not the opinion of all Jews but all Jews alive today remember the Holocaust and recall that very few lifted their voices in horror at the time, certainly nothing like the outcry for the Palestinians today. If you don’t think these thoughts are uppermost in their minds you’ll never understand this war.

The current government in Israel has no interest in making peace with the Palestinians and there probably hasn’t been one since before the 1977 elections but before that I believe there was a government who was willing to cut a deal but the Palestinians were not interested. In the Camp David negotiations in 2000 Israel came up with an insulting swiss cheese layout for the proposed state and the PLO rightly rejected it but they never made a counter offer which I find more ominous than a bad map. I don’t see many victims here except for the kiddies, if Hamas had the capacity to remove the jews from that land they would lacking that ability does not make them virtuous.

This war is not about the Holocaust, those aren't the Germans whose kids they are killing. I don't buy the argument that this is a spasm of historical "fear of oppression." Netanyahu knows full well what he is doing, he knows full well what the Israeli state has been up to for decades,, and plenty of Israelis are saying just that.

This is happening because NEITHER side's leaders want it to stop.

 

[TX-Beau]

Finally, it comes out.

...As some residents trickle back to their ruined neighborhoods, prominent politicians in Israel have questioned whether they should go home at all. Controversial proposals from some Israeli officials to evacuate Gazans to camps in Egypt or other countries are causing rifts with Washington, Europe and the United Nations, and have been included in a case filed against Israel at the International Court of Justice alleging “genocide” in Gaza. Far-right members of the governing coalition have proposed sending displaced Palestinians to Saudi Arabia, Jordan, the European Union or Chile...

MSN

This is particularly rich.

...A report in Israeli media last week said Netanyahu was in discussions with the Democratic Republic of Congo to receive “voluntary migration” from Gaza...

IBID

So much for the historic terror of another holocaust.

 

[rareboy]

This has only ever been about permanent seizure and occupation of Gaza and the forced exodus of Palestinians.

But I would note that with all the fabulously wealthy and 'sympathetic' Middle East countries, over the years, none of them have been willing to take in large numbers of Palestinian refugees.

Instead, they have helped keep them penned up in marginal subsistence camps in Gaza.

And let's face it. Hamas, funded by these states had basically built an entire military state and infrastructure designed to attack Israel.

And no colonial occupying power, uncluding all the modern ones like Great Britain and The United States would tolerate the threat. History is made up of tragedies like this.

 

[TX-Beau]

I'm not going to condemn anyone for not wanting to be forced to solve Israel's humanitarian crisis. Why should Congo or the EU be forced to pay for Israel's ethnic cleansing and forced displacement?

That said, there are no innocents in the Middle East. They all contributed to a greater or lesser degree, and all I will say is that our association with Israel has brought us mostly blame and grief, and our association with the Arab states has brought nothing better.

A pox on all their houses.

 

[rareboy]

Perhaps the saddest outcome in all of this is that Netanyahu and the far right fundamentalists are daily diminishing the horror and the lessons of the Holocaust.

I have read more than several comments where people are saying (again) that if the Jews were only given a homeland by Britain in order to commit genocide against Palestinians, then it is all relative.

The deaths of the Jews in Europe mean no more or less than the extermination of the Palestinians .

And where do we go with this?

That the genocide of American natives in the 1800's, of Armeniansin the 20th century, of African tribes, of Uyghurs, of Tibetans, of mass murders of Muslims by Serbia...of the attempts by the Kremlin to eradicate Ukrainians...that all these are in the end meaningless? That there is no lesson?

It seems that this is the case.

And that all of this noise is just a hollow mockery of history.

 

[TX-Beau]

It's a special kind of hypocrisy to use the Holocaust to justify mass murder. That demeans every life Hitler took.

I don't think that every Israeli is fine with that anyway, just like most Palestinians are not terrorists who don't deserve what Netanyahu is doing to them.

Israel is going to end any sympathy left over from WW2 with this violence, then Netanyahu and his far-right extremists are going to cry anti-sematism.

How very Toad-ian.

 

[rareboy]

For decades, anti-Zionist colonialism has been quickly slapped with the label of anti-semitism.

I have experienced this myself.

For some the two concepts cannot co-esist at the same time.

And invariably, it is always the hardcore right wingers...so certain in their bronze age view of the world...that cannot overlook what happened 3000 years ago.

And actually beleive there is a god given mandate.

 

[rareboy]

I think may be true. Personally and on a much broader scale although history has a way with discarding genocide.

 

[Norri]

Perhaps the saddest outcome in all of this is that Netanyahu and the far right fundamentalists are daily diminishing the horror and the lessons of the Holocaust.

I see more than sadness here, I see tragedy not so much for the state of Israel or the Palestinians but for the Jews. They are the parents of western morality, they are ‘people of the Book’. The world stands In judgement using Jewish morals to do so. Zionism was mostly a secular movement in the late 19th century as Orthodox Jews believed you couldn’t run a state and be a good Jew at the same time and they were right. They avoided hypocrisy for the last 2,000 yrs as they never had power but look at them now with the orthodox leading the way. They have sold their birthright for a piece of land and that is tragic.

Literature provides us with analogies for each group I believe. The Palestinians are Lorraine Hansberry’s dream deferred and on October 7th that dream popped like a raisin in the sun. For the Jews nothing less than Shakespeare will do, they are King Lear railing that the fates that have driven them here. Lear felt rage that no one really appreciated him, having your own morality thrown in your face just may feel the same way.

 

[rareboy]

Maybe the only interesting sidebar is that Israel actually has nuclear warheads.

And that American evangelical fundamentalists firmly believe that this all is part of the End Times.

So they are cheering this all on.

 

[Norri]

Oy!

 

[rareboy]

Palestine and Israel news today on map - Jerusalem today - Israel News today - Palestine News today - israelpalestine.liveuamap.com

Israeli-Palestine conflict in live news interactive map. Israeli-Palestinian war. Israeli-Lebanese war. War map

israelpalestine.liveuamap.com

As of today, northern Gaza appears to have been more effectively partitioned and under IDF control in all but about 5 pockets. It would also seem to imply that the control is both at the surface and the sub-surface level with more tunnel networks now not available to Hamas fighters.

IDF notes that they have found more weapons manufacturing facilities underground...but I imagine that these efforts by Hamas are at an end.

And it also seems that Hamas really has no more precision rockets or large ammo left to use in North Gaza.