The expanding Israel-Hamas war

[ravenstone]

It's much more than states that are Muslim. Seeing babies blown to bits every day in countries as far flung as Indonesia and Malaysia.

You can be sure that young anti-Zionists are finding groups that will let them become terrorists in the cause.

And much of it could have been averted if Israel had not indulged itself in this all-too-historic retribution.

So you think Israel should have left Hamas intact so they could do an Oct 7th every couple of years?

 

[Norri]

The Dominican Republic was the only country willing to let Jews in from Nazi Germany.

The rest of you goyim have blood on your hands.

This goyim was born after WW2 and when he looks at his hands sees no blood. But let me ask you after the killing of many women and children in Gaza how much does a mother with two children living in Tel Aviv have on her hands?

 

[NotHardUp1]

So you think Israel should have left Hamas intact so they could do an Oct 7th every couple of years?

Not at all.

But they are not destroying Hamas, only delaying them. They aren't going away.

And killing all the civilians is only going to grow many more fighters. This is a short-term strategy that loses in the long run.

 

[KaraBulut]

But they are not destroying Hamas, only delaying them. They aren't going away.

And killing all the civilians is only going to grow many more fighters. This is a short-term strategy that loses in the long run.

It's also important to remember how we got here. There was a major Israeli intelligence failure in the lead-up to Oct 7th. Thousands of Hamas fighters crossed the border without anyone noticing. And once the attacks started, it took half a day for Israel to mount a military response, which allowed Hamas terrorist to invade homes to kidnap or kill more Israelis.

Netanyahu knowingly allowed Hamas to continue receiving funding from other countries. He had a strategy that he thought would pit the Palestinians in Gaza against the Palestinians in the West Bank. Netanyahu also sabotaged the Obama Administration's attempts to slow Iran's nuclear weapons program which means that he is about to have another country with nuclear weapons aimed in Israel's direction.

A decent human being would have resigned in shame at all of these failures. Instead, his focus has been on staying in power. He's destroying the limited amount of goodwill that Israel has built up in the international community and he's creating yet another generation of Sunnis an Shi'ites intent on ending the Jews in Israel.

 

[fotojungs]

So when do we fight Netanyahu like Putin?

 

[NotHardUp1]

So when do we fight Netanyahu like Putin?

That would be the question.

We don't fight Putin, btw, but the Russian state, and target Putin as the de facto dictator of the state.

We're not ever likely to go to war, even with proxies, against Israel, not only due to the powerful Jewish poliical influence in the U.S, but obviously due to disproportionate influence in media and academia, much like the Episcopal Church had for centuries here, but on steroids.

Add to that the superstitious regard of Evangelicals for the State of Israel and you have the reason a string of presidents have tolerated the intolerable.

But, even with those aside, it comes down to the nature of Israel's problems being somewhat internal, like a civil war, and the unlikely case for America ever invading a nuclear power, another nastly little exception granted Israel. We go batshit crazy all the time with warnings of North Korea or Iran being on the verge of nuclear arms, yet we remain silent to Israel's holding them. Plus, every action with Israel and the Arabs is a lose/lose, as you're siding with bad actors on either side.

Now, we've seen clear evidence that Israel has no qualms with prosecuting its own genocide of its neighbors without the bother of ideology and whatnot: just blow them to smithereens while claiming every child is a shield for your enemy. Marvelously effective that.

Since there is zero chance Israel will ever surrender its own nukes, it becomes inevitable that Iran or one of the Arab states will eventually arm. And with Israel's demonstrated bloodthist this year, a great deal of those looking on are less sure she would use them in a last-ditch fight.

Gee, don'tcha miss WWI?

 

[fotojungs]

That would be the question.

We don't fight Putin, btw, but the Russian state, and target Putin as the de facto dictator of the state.

We're not ever likely to go to war, even with proxies, against Israel, not only due to the powerful Jewish poliical influence in the U.S, but obviously due to disproportionate influence in media and academia, much like the Episcopal Church had for centuries here, but on steroids.

Add to that the superstitious regard of Evangelicals for the State of Israel and you have the reason a string of presidents have tolerated the intolerable.

But, even with those aside, it comes down to the nature of Israel's problems being somewhat internal, like a civil war, and the unlikely case for America ever invading a nuclear power, another nastly little exception granted Israel. We go batshit crazy all the time with warnings of North Korea or Iran being on the verge of nuclear arms, yet we remain silent to Israel's holding them. Plus, every action with Israel and the Arabs is a lose/lose, as you're siding with bad actors on either side.

Now, we've seen clear evidence that Israel has no qualms with prosecuting its own genocide of its neighbors without the bother of ideology and whatnot: just blow them to smithereens while claiming every child is a shield for your enemy. Marvelously effective that.

Since there is zero chance Israel will ever surrender its own nukes, it becomes inevitable that Iran or one of the Arab states will eventually arm. And with Israel's demonstrated bloodthist this year, a great deal of those looking on are less sure she would use them in a last-ditch fight.

Gee, don'tcha miss WWI?

I am convinced that Putin is waging war for domestic political reasons - just like Netanyahu.

My first thought two years ago when I stepped out of Yad Vashem into the sunlight: how can this people, how can this government! do THAT with Gaza?
Doesn't it show all the mendacity... selfishness and distortion of history?
Or is it 'just' the respective rulers maintaining power?

if it is the rulers, what prevents us from the revolution?

 

[TX-Beau]

I am convinced that Putin is waging war for domestic political reasons - just like Netanyahu.

My first thought two years ago when I stepped out of Yad Vashem into the sunlight: how can this people, how can this government! do THAT with Gaza?
Doesn't it show all the mendacity... selfishness and distortion of history?
Or is it 'just' the respective rulers maintaining power?

if it is the rulers, what prevents us from the revolution?

It's right-wing religious fundamentalism both here, in Israel, Hamas, and in Russia. Religious extremism being used to further political dominance.

 

[rareboy]

Religion is such a convenient excuse for slaughter.

One of the reasons I am cheering on Ukraine's outlawing of the Rzzzn Orthodox FSB 'Church' is that it effectively identifies that branch with terrorism and politics.

It leaves the Orthodox Church in Ukraine intact, but demolishes the ability of the Kremlin to use religion internally to subvert the state.

As for right wing faiths of all stripes...I am cheering on their destruction at every turn.

Sick and tired of all of them.

 

[KaraBulut]

It's right-wing religious fundamentalism both here, in Israel, Hamas, and in Russia. Religious extremism being used to further political dominance.

What it all has in common is a religious zeal to restore a past empire. In the case of Israel, it's Zionism. In the case of Hamas, it's restoration of the Caliphate which requires expulsion of the Jewish majority. In the case of Russia, it's to restore the Russian Empire under the Russian Orthodox Church.

In the Russia thread, I had linked to a story in "The Atlantic" about a split in the Orthodox Church. Reunification of the Ukraine and Russian Orthodox Church is part of the motive for Putin. Ironically, he's destroying a lot of the Ukrainian Church property and landmarks in the process.

Post in thread 'Russian Invasion of Ukraine'

May 5, 2024

...So I doubt the other Orthodox churches will be saying much of anything, even if they're as scandalized as I am by clergy at the mother monastery of East Slavic Christianity advocating violence against their neighbors.

^ I hope that the FSB Orthodox Church is left in ruins after this, but am not optimistic. The power brokers in the Kremlin and the Church all know how to transition from one autocratic kleptocracy to the next by mutually supporting each other...although they all seem to inexplicably still support PutinCo., even though it does not seem in their best interests.

...

• KaraBulut

 

[rareboy]

I realized when we were in RRRxxxzzzia in 2012 that the resurrection and the glorification of the ROC was purely a political act.

Putin, Kirill and the Kremlin don't care about the 'church' per se...they realized that it was an incredibly powerful tool in consolidating and holding onto power. Our guide basically told us this.

All the gilding and the glorification and the sainting of the Romanovs is all designed to prop up the notion of Empire.

And at the end of the day, so it is with Israel and the Muslims and all the other politically based religions. It is why the US should be fucking terrified of the Southern Baptist Convention and the militant Roman Catholics.

What they want more than anything else is power. And for most of them, the religious nonsense is the best way to get it.

 

[TX-Beau]

What it all has in common is a religious zeal to restore a past empire. In the case of Israel, it's Zionism. In the case of Hamas, it's restoration of the Caliphate which requires expulsion of the Jewish majority. In the case of Russia, it's to restore the Russian Empire under the Russian Orthodox Church.

In the Russia thread, I had linked to a story in "The Atlantic" about a split in the Orthodox Church. Reunification of the Ukraine and Russian Orthodox Church is part of the motive for Putin. Ironically, he's destroying a lot of the Ukrainian Church property and landmarks in the process.

Post in thread 'Russian Invasion of Ukraine'

May 5, 2024

...So I doubt the other Orthodox churches will be saying much of anything, even if they're as scandalized as I am by clergy at the mother monastery of East Slavic Christianity advocating violence against their neighbors.

^ I hope that the FSB Orthodox Church is left in ruins after this, but am not optimistic. The power brokers in the Kremlin and the Church all know how to transition from one autocratic kleptocracy to the next by mutually supporting each other...although they all seem to inexplicably still support PutinCo., even though it does not seem in their best interests.

...

• KaraBulut

You forgot in the US it's about restoring Jim Crow and White Supremacy.

 

[TX-Beau]

I realized when we were in RRRxxxzzzia in 2012 that the resurrection and the glorification of the ROC was purely a political act.

Putin, Kirill and the Kremlin don't care about the 'church' per se...they realized that it was an incredibly powerful tool in consolidating and holding onto power. Our guide basically told us this.

All the gilding and the glorification and the sainting of the Romanovs is all designed to prop up the notion of Empire.

And at the end of the day, so it is with Israel and the Muslims and all the other politically based religions. It is why the US should be fucking terrified of the Southern Baptist Convention and the militant Roman Catholics.

What they want more than anything else is power. And for most of them, the religious nonsense is the best way to get it.

Did they really make the Romanovs saints" Using what justification, divine arrogance and incompetence?

 

[rareboy]

Did they really make the Romanovs saints" Using what justification, divine arrogance and incompetence?

Canonization of the Romanovs - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

'By interring them in the Imperial Crypt and recognizing the tatter-scatter of the Romanov descendants in all but the ability to re-take the throne, they happily made up a nostalgic pretext for 'Vlad the Bad' to exert himself as Tsar by re-taking all the possession lost in the fall of the Soviet Union.

Ukraine has spoiled his attempt to position himself as Peter the Great 2.0.

And all the Oligarchs vying to be named as the equivalent of Dukes and Princes.

And I suspect that this galls him beyond measure.

 

[TX-Beau]

Canonization of the Romanovs - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

'By interring them in the Imperial Crypt and recognizing the tatter-scatter of the Romanov descendants in all but the ability to re-take the throne, they happily made up a nostalgic pretext for 'Vlad the Bad' to exert himself as Tsar by re-taking all the possession lost in the fall of the Soviet Union.

Ukraine has spoiled his attempt to position himself as Peter the Great 2.0.

And all the Oligarchs vying to be named as the equivalent of Dukes and Princes.

And I suspect that this galls him beyond measure.

Well, the sequel is never as good as the original...

Do people still buy into all that Imperial mysticism or is it more of a pro forma kind of thing.

--

I do not understand Monarchists of any stripe.

 

[KaraBulut]

You forgot in the US it's about restoring Jim Crow and White Supremacy.

It's similar but the US Constitution creates a situation where you don't have a single religion that is integrated into government. Fortunately, the writers of the Constitution knew too well the history in Europe and had seen the fallout from religious wars.

That, of course, is reality. That doesn't mean that there aren't a group of evangelicals that have created in their minds an imaginary history of the perfect society built around nuclear family where white people held power and women/gays/minorities knew their place. The irony is that these are the same people who were freaked out about "Sharia law" in the US a few year ago. They don't see what they're doing as theocracy, they see it at "restoring America to Christian values" and "Making America Great Again". These themes are found all through the Project 2025 document.

 

[rareboy]

Not to wander into the weeds, but I suspect that the fringe wacko 'Christian' Nationalists believe that they must control the US government in order to prepare for the 'end times' when a nuclear Israel will figure large in their Armageddon wet dream.

 

[TX-Beau]

Not to wander into the weeds, but I suspect that the fringe wacko 'Christian' Nationalists believe that they must control the US government in order to prepare for the 'end times' when a nuclear Israel will figure large in their Armageddon wet dream.

I believe that the end goal of that is that all Jews end up dead. So, it's kinda relevant.

 

[NotHardUp1]

Almost a month without comments, yet Israel is expanding the war aggresively now.

Maybe the thread is titled such that the Hezbollah campaign doesn't fit well, but there shouldn't need to be two threads for one Israeli war.

Or, maybe just the war is back to being where all wars for the state of Irael have been, hopeless causes where peace is not desired by either side, only extermination, so there's nothing really new to say.

 

[rareboy]

What is there left to say? Israel has been targeting Hezbollah for years while they attack from Lebanon. It is almost inevitable, that Lebanon, being another proxy for Iran's war against Israel, will become totally involved in this war as well.

People from Israel are now travelling the coast of Gaza to look at real estate and are openly talking about the takeover of land through annexation, like the West Bank.