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The expanding Israel-Hamas war

Norri said:
This “war” is based on the idea that Iran having nuclear weapons is an existential threat to the survival of the state of Israel...

Only a paranoid individual would call the Iranians an existential threat to any country. Basing your policy on a belief that a country of 90 million people would commit national suicide is absurd.
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Norri meet Benny. Benny meet Norri.


View attachment TDS-Israel’s Urgent Iran Strike_20250616.mp4
 
rareboy said:
I imagine that part of TrumpCo's 2 week delay was to allow this to happen.


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It's damned for sure it wasn't a "surprise attack" as claimed by the Pentagon.

Hell, I'm sure some kindergarteners had figured out it was gonna be Saturday night, as usual, after the news hour.
 
rareboy said:
uh oh.

www.rawstory.com

'I'm sick of it': Marjorie Taylor Greene unloads on Trump for bombing Iran

Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene (R-GA) lashed out at President Donald Trump's decision to bomb Iran.In a Sunday post on X, Greene gave her thoughts about the president's military operation."I don't know anyone in America who has been the victim of a crime or killed by Iran," she complained. "America...
www.rawstory.com www.rawstory.com
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Norri said:
Give her credit she is sticking with what she has always said and believes even if it means crossing Trump. She is actually more MAGA than the Orange Jesus.
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Notably, there's a bill being written in the House to limit Trump's "war powers"- a seemingly unnecessary bill since the Constitution grants Congress the power to declare war.

Majorie Taylor-Greene isn't a sponsor of the bill.

If we've learned anything recently, it's that it's easy to say that you don't support a President- when he's declaring emergencies to grant himself powers, when he's levying tariff that only Congress can levy, when he's devising budgets that explode the deficit, when he's laying off workers and shuttering agencies that Congress has funded and when he's bombing countries without informing Congress...

But when it's time to vote against that President, MTG falls in line like the rest of them because she wants to keep that pitiful gavel they gave her in January..

Any chicken-shit politician can have their comms team send out a Tweet. Those same politicians won't put actions behind their words.
 
Iran should have stayed out of this; it is a conflict between Hamas and Israel. Yes, I am aware of the accusations against Israel and the situation in Palestine, just like I am aware of the terrorist tactics of Hamas.

I am not so much taking sides here; I am on the side of peace and love. I simply deem that Iran should have stayed out of this. Getting involved in it and repeatedly striking Israel only—as expected—aggravated matters, causing both Israel and the United States to retaliate, and Iran striking the U.S. may only escalate matters further.

Besides, between Iran and Israel, the U.S. will always ultimately side w/ Israel. It was folly for Iran to get involved in it in the first place.
 
Arckangel said:
Iran should have stayed out of this; it is a conflict between Hamas and Israel. Yes, I am aware of the accusations against Israel and the situation in Palestine, just like I am aware of the terrorist tactics of Hamas...
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Hamas is a proxy of Iran.

I made an earlier comment about how countries like the US love to blow up things but they're not as good about planning for the day after the bombs.

The same thing is true of Israel. In the 20th century, Israel created a power vacuum in Lebanon, particularly in south Lebanon. This led to the rise of Hezbollah, which is a Shi'a group sponsored by Iran. What makes these organizations so different from the Western concept of "government" is that groups like Hezbollah are religious groups that function as a promoter of Islam, a charity and a political party.

Israel's displacement of the Palestinians after WWI and the fall of the Ottoman Empire set the stage for another power vacuum that neighboring countries took advantage of. Hamas is nominally Sunni, and like Hezbollah, it is a promoter of Islam, a charity and a political party. Hamas started as an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood which was underwritten by Sunnis in Egypt but more recently, Hamas has received financial support from UAE (Sunni), Qatar (Sunni) and, notably, Iran (Shi'a).

What Israel is doing is trying to remove Iran's influence in Lebanon and Gaza. The path to do this is to attack Iran's proxies, Hezbollah and Hamas, and now Israel has decided to take on Iran directly. Israel has also succeeded in dragging the US into it by taking advantage of America's bad history with Iran.

Why? There's a lot of reasons but a big reason is that Netanyahu and the Ultra-Orthodox Jewish far-right coalition that keeps Netanyahu in power see it as their path to remaining in power in Israel. Netanyahu had been underwriting Hamas and allowing financial support from neighboring countries to pour into Hamas. Netanyahu was hoping that by financially supporting Hamas, it would weaken the PLO which is the controlling party in the West Bank. This blew up in Netanyahu's face on October 7. Now, in order to keep in power, he has to cover up his history with Hamas with hyper-aggressive actions in Lebanon, Gaza and Iran. Netanyahu has succeeded- his popularity in Israel has risen since he started the war in Gaza and with Iran, as many Israelis have felt that Hamas and Hezbollah (and Iran) are threats to their feeling of security.

All of these countries have something in common- they are becoming more and more religiously conservative, and those religious conservatives want to remain in power and will do anything to hold on to power.
 
Last edited:
So Trump has declared that Iran and Israel came begging him for peace.

And that there is a ceasefire.

And now the Middle East is solved.

Nobel Peace Prize please.
 
And a familiar name from the past joins the chat...

On Monday, Reza Pahlavi — the son of Iran’s last shah — gave a speech proclaiming the Islamic Republic’s end was near. “This is our Berlin Wall moment,” Pahlavi declared. He was dressed in a white shirt, a blue tie and a crisp suit with an Iran-shaped lapel pin. The future, he said, was bright. Together, Iranians would build a better country, free of tyranny. “Imagine this new Iran,” he said. “A free and democratic Iran, living at peace with our neighbors, an engine of growth and opportunity.”

If Pahlavi sounds a little like a presidential contender giving a campaign speech, that is because, in a sense, he is: Reza Pahlavi is running to be Iran’s next leader. The erstwhile crown prince has been criticizing the country’s Islamist autocracy since he went into exile almost five decades ago. But in recent years, he has become increasingly vocal — and increasingly insistent that he should lead any pivot. “I am stepping forward to lead this national transition,” Pahlavi said. “I have a clear plan.”
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KaraBulut said:
Hamas is a proxy of Iran.

I made an earlier comment about how countries like the US love to blow up things but they're not as good about planning for the day after the bombs.

The same thing is true of Israel. In the 20th century, Israel created a power vacuum in Lebanon, particularly in south Lebanon. This led to the rise of Hezbollah, which is a Shi'a group sponsored by Iran. What makes these organizations so different from the Western concept of "government" is that groups like Hezbollah are religious groups that function as a promoter of Islam, a charity and a political party.

Israel's displacement of the Palestinians after WWI and the fall of the Ottoman Empire set the stage for another power vacuum that neighboring countries took advantage of. Hamas is nominally Sunni, and like Hezbollah, it is a promoter of Islam, a charity and a political party. Hamas started as an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood which was underwritten by Sunnis in Egypt but more recently, Hamas has received financial support from UAE (Sunni), Qatar (Sunni) and, notably, Iran (Shi'a).

What Israel is doing is trying to remove Iran's influence in Lebanon and Gaza. The path to do this is to attack Iran's proxies, Hezbollah and Hamas, and now Israel has decided to take on Iran directly. Israel has also succeeded in dragging the US into it by taking advantage of America's bad history with iran.

Why? There's a lot of reasons but a big reason is that Netanyahu and the Ultra-Orthodox Jewish coalition that keeps Netanyahu in power see it as their path to remaining in power in Israel. Netanyahu had been underwriting Hamas and allowing financial support from neighboring countries to pour into Hamas. Netanyahu was hoping that by financially supporting Hamas, it would weaken the PLO which is the controlling party in the West Bank. This blew up in Netanyahu's face on October 7. Now, in order to keep in power, he has to cover up his history with Hamas with hyper-aggressive actions in Lebanon, Gaza and Iran. Netanyahu has succeeded- his popularity in Israel has risen since he started the war in Gaza and with Iran, as many Israelis have felt that Hamas and Hezbollah (and Iran) are threats to their feeling of security.

All of these countries have something in common- they are becoming more and more religiously conservative, and those religious conservatives want to remain in power and will do anything to hold on to power.
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As I mentioned earlier, the current problem lies in the tactics of Hamas.

Among the reported actions of Hamas: shooting up kids in a nursery (photo evidence); torturing parents in front of children, and then piling up those children and setting them on fire; intruding family homes and shooting up members of all ages of those families or dismembering them; undressing women, parading them stark naked in the streets; raping women—even among corpses, even raping corpses; sexually penetrating women with knives, dismembering them, blowing up a house after doing that to one of them; baking a baby in an oven...

Some may deny and dismiss those reports as pure propaganda fabrication, but the fact is, they were reported—I'm not making any of these up—and there is evidence of some of those reports at least. Add to that all the hostages made by Hamas, a number of whom were assassinated.


Evidently, ambushing a very large group of innocent people of different ethnicities and confessions, and then shooting them up and committing further atrocities (incl. mass rape) was not going to solve any problem or redress any situation.

Hamas knew very well how Israel would react; Israelis saw it as a mini-Holocaust after the world stated: "Never again!" decades earlier. And much of the whole world was horrified by that onslaught that even targeted minors.

Obviously, Hamas was not acting in favour of the Palestinians, knowing the retaliation and unrest that would ensue. Without disregarding the actions of Israel, I cannot in good conscience champion for Hamas, recognized as a terrorist organization by many countries.
 
Arckangel said:
As I mentioned earlier, the current problem lies in the tactics of Hamas.
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The problem is that the west views Hamas as a group of terrorists. The people in Palestine view it like it is Catholic Charities. Their food, their healthcare and their government services are all Hamas.

Hamas was only marginally popular in Gaza and the West Bank before the Israeli bombings- the polls had their candidates running between 25-50% in pre-election polls. Since the bombings, Hamas' popularity has risen and polls in support of the October 7th raids poll around 70-80% in favor of Hamas' murdering of Israelis. If they had their choice, they would also throw out Abbas from the West Bank and replace him with Hamas.

Here's the thing that outsiders don't get: if you're a Gazan, you have Israeli bombs falling out of the sky and IDF soldiers shooting civilians. Hamas appears to them as the only group who are fighting for Palestinians. Hamas, or its successors, has a fertile recruiting ground for a new generation of the same old same old.
 
KaraBulut said:
And a familiar name from the past joins the chat...p

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The end of the Islamic régime would be a good thing.

Women were free in Persia before the Islamic Revolution of 1979, and LGBTs weren't as targeted—there was even talk of same-sex marriage!

Everything changed for the worse in 1979, and not long afterwards, Iran became a complete dictatorship. So many men and sometimes also women accused of the "crime of the people of Lot" (homosexuality) were put to death in public for that motive alone! So many of them, hundreds upon hundreds—even adolescents. Pet Shop Boys dedicated their album Fundamental to two of them, Iranian gay teenagers Mahmoud Asgari and Ayaz Marhoni, who were hanged on July 19, 2005. G*D have their souls!

In the following years, such taking of innocent human lives intensified:

Iran executes ‘high number’ of gays, says German intelligence

Up to 6,000 such killings took place.

As recently as 2022, further such executions and sentencings took place:

Iran executes 2 gay men over sodomy charges, rights group says

Iran sentences two LGBT activists to death

I just cannot garner any sympathy and support for the government of Iran, though I am very displeased by war.
 
KaraBulut said:
The problem is that the west views Hamas as a group of terrorists. The people in Palestine view it like it is Catholic Charities. Their food, their healthcare and their government services are all Hamas.

Hamas was only marginally popular in Gaza and the West Bank before the Israeli bombings- the polls had their candidates running between 25-50% in pre-election polls. Since the bombings, Hamas' popularity has risen and polls in support of the October 7th raids poll around 70-80% in favor of Hamas' murdering of Israelis. If they had their choice, they would also throw out Abbas from the West Bank and replace him with Hamas.

Here's the thing that outsiders don't get: if you're a Gazan, you have Israeli bombs falling out of the sky and IDF soldiers shooting civilians. Hamas appears to them as the only group who are fighting for Palestinians. Hamas, or its successors, has a fertile recruiting ground for a new generation of the same old same old.
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These explanations do not come anywhere close to justifying the horrific, murderous, rapist and child-killing actions of Hamas.

Supporting such unspeakable, highly perverted atrocities (incl. sex killings) is making those people just as bad as that régime they condemn, and here continues the vicious circle... People on one side calling to the complete obliteration of Gaza (yes, I remember a woman on TV news report calling for that), and people on the other side calling for the torture and murder of Israelis while chanting: "From the river to the sea..."

Violence only begets violence, and it never ends. It's just like people cheering for Luigi Mangione and sending him—who is already rich—over a million dollars... Like his alleged actions are actually going to solve things...
 
Arckangel said:
These explanations do not come anywhere close to justifying the horrific, murderous, rapist and child-killing actions of Hamas.

Supporting such unspeakable, highly perverted atrocities (incl. sex killings) is making those people just as bad as that régime they condemn, and here continues the vicious circle... People on one side calling to the complete obliteration of Gaza (yes, I remember a woman on TV news report calling for that), and people on the other side calling for the torture and murder of Israelis while chanting: "From the river to the sea..."

Violence only begets violence, and it never ends. It's just like people cheering for Luigi Mangione and sending him—who is already rich—over a million dollars... Like his alleged actions are actually going to solve things...
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I'm not trying to "explain" Hamas. I'm trying to give you the viewpoint of how it looks to people in the middle east. Atrocities and genocide are the norm there. There's an endless history of one group slaughtering another. As long as the west continues to view one side as "atrocities" while excusing the other side's actions, they will continue to get sucked into these genocidal wars that have been going on for millennia.

While I'm trying to give you insight, you keep returning to the same claims. This is a long history in which no one ever wins and unless you're a Palestinian or an Israeli, you're better off standing on the sidelines and realizing that all parties have plenty of blood on their hands.
 
^ This.

The only reason the west (US) continually gets sucked into sectarian violence in the Middle East is oil.

At this point, Israel with tens of thousands of deaths in GAZA has demonstrated it is no different or better than Hamas or Iran or Syria or any other player.

And where does that leave us now? When no country there has moral ascendancy?

It leaves me sick and tired of all the Abrahamic religions that have used their dogma as a cudgel in their tribal wars.

And we haven't even touched on how the west and rrrZZia exploit the region for their imperial proxy wars.

The fantasy of peace breaking out in the Middle East is just that.

Let them all kill one another. Just stop supplying any of these players with the arms and bombs to do it.
 
If you have any doubt about what this is all about....

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And this is the crux. IT only delays Iran. It doesn't stop them. We will see all of this all over again in another decade
or less if the IRG ends up seizing power.

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