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The Gay Community Needs To Stop Hating on Femme/Camp/Queeny Gays.....

Inattention to our education, to our communities and to the various media as much as general self-interest and lack of empathy (with an "I'm okay, Jack" attitude) is how it comes to pass that in 2011 so many people, even those who are gay or bi and who interact with others who share same sex attraction are able to have no resonance or insight into homophobia and or heterocentricity. The recurring notion that effeminate behaviour is naturally rewarded with violence and ostracisation is erroneous, to say the very least. This is to argue that an aggressive person has no responsibility as the instigator of violence, rather is reacting to a clear and real provocation and threat. We see this claim in courts when young men are bashed and otherwise brutalised to death, and the man or men who commit these murders defend themselves, stating that they felt threatened by the fag! How is it that anyone here could in any way rationalize and make reasonable that bizarre, crazy claim? I think those I speak of would deny that it is their intention that I would draw such implications from their posts, but we must follow arguments to their logical conclusions.

There is no such thing as a silent revolution - it is an oxymoronic idea. There is nobody involved in any social modification that can claim or indicate their silent contribution to an altered manner of participation by the leaders and or grass-roots members of that society. Don't point to politicians who have gay kids: 1/ Not quiet or silent; 2/ Not gay themselves; 3/ By definition, not revolutionary - rather doing their fucking job of speaking and acting to the betterment of all citizens of their country. And certainly not subversive, which is what 'silence' would speak to or suggest.

There is much internalised homophobia here. There are so many posts of people stating that anyone recognized as queer has it coming, that it is to be expected, that it is natural for such persons to be identified as deviant, other-than, perverted, that violence or aggression is essentially provoked or 'asked for.' Further, when we state that kind of opinion and close our accusations with throw aways like, "Just saying..," what we are doing is trying to distance ourselves morally from any responsibility for the role we play in facilitating, developing and assisting the demonization process that bigots use when they diminish our allowable participation in general socialisation, or even kill us. And the deifinition of what is effeminate becomes a more expansive one; men who were affable become queer, men who hugged and touselled hair, become bashing victims. Maybe I should be less surprised at the ignorance of openly available information, and perhaps I can count myself fortunate to come from a family where social awareness stemming from the involvement of my family in Nazism has opened my heart and mind to a vigilance that seems to be missing from the general populations in non-Euro families where we learn that it comes from within. It is terrible that so many people have been insulted, bashed, even killed and have suicided or self-harmed because of reactions to perceived effeminacy, and that so many voices and pens comply with the notion that this has all been expected, accepted and is somehow natural. Fucking read more by sound and sensible writers guys! Society survives and evolves as much by strength of character and inclusiveness as it does by diversity, intelligence (a willingness to assist and understand and learn) and a desire to benefit from all successes and failures, and a self-aware participation by us all. Why is it harder to open the arms and experience solidarity than it is to capitulate to bigots and fuck-wits?
 
Really? People have a problem with your wardrobe - how effemnate of them to be so involved in your clothing!;) At any rate, you look very nicely presented, I'd say.
 
Inattention to our education, to our communities and to the various media as much as general self-interest and lack of empathy (with an "I'm okay, Jack" attitude) is how it comes to pass that in 2011 so many people, even those who are gay or bi and who interact with others who share same sex attraction are able to have no resonance or insight into homophobia and or heterocentricity. The recurring notion that effeminate behaviour is naturally rewarded with violence and ostracisation is erroneous, to say the very least. This is to argue that an aggressive person has no responsibility as the instigator of violence, rather is reacting to a clear and real provocation and threat. We see this claim in courts when young men are bashed and otherwise brutalised to death, and the man or men who commit these murders defend themselves, stating that they felt threatened by the fag! How is it that anyone here could in any way rationalize and make reasonable that bizarre, crazy claim? I think those I speak of would deny that it is their intention that I would draw such implications from their posts, but we must follow arguments to their logical conclusions.

There is no such thing as a silent revolution - it is an oxymoronic idea. There is nobody involved in any social modification that can claim or indicate their silent contribution to an altered manner of participation by the leaders and or grass-roots members of that society. Don't point to politicians who have gay kids: 1/ Not quiet or silent; 2/ Not gay themselves; 3/ By definition, not revolutionary - rather doing their fucking job of speaking and acting to the betterment of all citizens of their country. And certainly not subversive, which is what 'silence' would speak to or suggest.

There is much internalised homophobia here. There are so many posts of people stating that anyone recognized as queer has it coming, that it is to be expected, that it is natural for such persons to be identified as deviant, other-than, perverted, that violence or aggression is essentially provoked or 'asked for.' Further, when we state that kind of opinion and close our accusations with throw aways like, "Just saying..," what we are doing is trying to distance ourselves morally from any responsibility for the role we play in facilitating, developing and assisting the demonization process that bigots use when they diminish our allowable participation in general socialisation, or even kill us. And the deifinition of what is effeminate becomes a more expansive one; men who were affable become queer, men who hugged and touselled hair, become bashing victims. Maybe I should be less surprised at the ignorance of openly available information, and perhaps I can count myself fortunate to come from a family where social awareness stemming from the involvement of my family in Nazism has opened my heart and mind to a vigilance that seems to be missing from the general populations in non-Euro families where we learn that it comes from within. It is terrible that so many people have been insulted, bashed, even killed and have suicided or self-harmed because of reactions to perceived effeminacy, and that so many voices and pens comply with the notion that this has all been expected, accepted and is somehow natural. Fucking read more by sound and sensible writers guys! Society survives and evolves as much by strength of character and inclusiveness as it does by diversity, intelligence (a willingness to assist and understand and learn) and a desire to benefit from all successes and failures, and a self-aware participation by us all. Why is it harder to open the arms and experience solidarity than it is to capitulate to bigots and fuck-wits?

Tell us something of the revolution in Australia that resulted in the decriminalisation of homosexual acts. I am interested to note how UK legislation in 1967 (The Homosexual Reform Act) impacted on Australia's response to reform of its own anti gay laws.

Were there riots in Australia, in support of reform of anti queer laws of a comparable nature to those that occurred at Stonewall in New York in 1969?
 
Really? People have a problem with your wardrobe - how effemnate of them to be so involved in your clothing!;) At any rate, you look very nicely presented, I'd say.

Define your terms people. Your saying effeminate is a bad thing?
 
>>>If you are doing something outside of the social norm then, you are deviant and will be treated accordingly by society. Again, I don't write the rules.

But, see, they're not "rules". They're how people (in general) are conditioned to respond. People in general fear the unfamiliar, and they don't like having their preconceived notions challenged. I'm well-aware that, when confronted with "the other", it's easier just to put up walls, or be dismissive, or even react hostilely. I recognize that, as human animals, that's the natural reaction. But I also think it's important to move beyond mere instinct. "Fight or flight" might be instinct, but most of us know we can't solve most of our problems by running away or slugging them in the jaw. When somebody "moves into my territory", I don't piss on them. The animalistic internal response may be a given, but the actual physical response isn't, and in fact shouldn't be a given.

>>>in that particular example, the difference in that analogy is one between "performance" and "identity". The guy who paints his stomach for a Bruins game is performing, for one night/event whereas the guys who wear blush and just a touch of lipstick every day (shudder) do so to a point where it becomes integrated into their identity.

First off, I think we know plenty of sports fans who wear the jerseys on more than just game day. It's an aspect that they've made part of their personality. And I don't have any trouble with guys wearing make-up, any more than I have trouble with guys wearing sports jerseys, and for precisely the same reason. It's something they've decided to do, they enjoy it, so go on with your bad self. And yes, if they walked around bellowing "BRUINS!" all day long, they'd be douches. Or, more accurately, complete and utter bores. It means this one aspect of their personality has overwhelmed it. They have nothing to offer but "BRUINS!". And I guess I can picture a gay guy who has nothing to offer but make-up and "acting gay". But the thing is - I've never met one. I've met guys who wear make-up every day, and guys who are very effeminate. But that's never been the end of their personality. I've always found they've had something more to offer than just that. This doesn't mean I've befriended them all, or even liked them all. I've met some where we simply didn't have much common ground, and some who were annoying on a level that went beyond "effeminate". One wouldn't stop hitting on me, for instance, even after being rebuffed, and I find that annoying. But I try to take every person as they come, and accept or reject them based on what I learn about them. Perhaps you turn away the second you see eyeliner or unisex jeans. To me, that's like turning away the second you see the sports jersey.

>>>And by extension (or media focus), this also comes to define the "gay community" as a whole.

There IS a reason for that.

Several decades ago, the only "out" gay guys were the really effeminate ones. Those who could pass for straight did so, and kept their encounters, relationships and sexuality under wraps. But the effeminate guys basically lived out of the closet. Why shouldn't they? If they tried to pass for straight, nobody believed them anyway. So they just said "fuck this noise" (or whatever one said before that phrase came into being) and lived as out homosexuals. And as such, for years, the face of the homosexual population was the effeminate guys.

Which brings us to the present day. If you have a problem with the face of the homosexual population, the problem isn't that "there's too many effeminate gay guys out there". It's that there aren't enough masculine gay guys out there. Or, to semi-quote Harvey Fierstein, if you don't like the look of the parade, don't go bitching at the queens for making it "not look like you". Go get INTO the parade so it DOES look more like you.

I joined the parade about two decades ago. I'd like to think I'm fairly masculine. I've gotten surprised looks, and mild snarky comments tossed my way, but that's it. Are there people out there who might think I'm effeminate, or wear make-up, or dress like a girl because I'm gay? Possibly. Maybe even probably. But who the fuck cares? The issue there isn't that "there are too many femmy gay guys giving us a bad name". It's that some people can be pretty ignorant. I sure as hell am not going to tell the femmy guys to "butch it up" and ditch the makeup so that strangers might not lump me in with them. I'm not interested in playing down to their level of ignorance - I'm more interested in educating them out of it.

Lex
 
Which brings us to the present day. If you have a problem with the face of the homosexual population, the problem isn't that "there's too many effeminate gay guys out there". It's that there aren't enough masculine gay guys out there. Or, to semi-quote Harvey Fierstein, if you don't like the look of the parade, don't go bitching at the queens for making it "not look like you". Go get INTO the parade so it DOES look more like you.

There's nothing I could ever do to make that parade look like me. And so what? That's not the point as I see it.

How about I just learn to stop being a dipshit and accept people for who they are no matter how they differ from me?
 
>>>There's nothing I could ever do to make that parade look like me. And so what? That's not the point as I see it.

The point wasn't to "make the parade look like you". If it was, I'd be telling the femmes and the bears and the rest to stay home. My point was to those who feel the "gay community" is represented solely by the effeminate guys in make-up and/or drag. The effeminate people are in the parade - both literally and metaphorically. And the way to send the message that "gays aren't just effeminate men in make-up" isn't to tell them to get out of the parade (both literally and metaphorically), or "act more like me". It's to JOIN the parade - both literally and metaphorically.

Lex
 
>>>There's nothing I could ever do to make that parade look like me. And so what? That's not the point as I see it.

The point wasn't to "make the parade look like you". If it was, I'd be telling the femmes and the bears and the rest to stay home. My point was to those who feel the "gay community" is represented solely by the effeminate guys in make-up and/or drag. The effeminate people are in the parade - both literally and metaphorically. And the way to send the message that "gays aren't just effeminate men in make-up" isn't to tell them to get out of the parade (both literally and metaphorically), or "act more like me". It's to JOIN the parade - both literally and metaphorically.

Lex

They could do that. No one's stopping them. But would they be offended if the media chose to pass over their respectable, normal selves in favor of featuring the glitter brigade on the six o'clock news? They would probably be. So just stay home.
 
They could do that. No one's stopping them. But would they be offended if the media chose to pass over their respectable, normal selves in favor of featuring the glitter brigade on the six o'clock news? They would probably be. So just stay home.

If staying home includes STFU, alright. :)
 
If staying home includes STFU, alright. :)

Well naturally.

But, you know, Lex is a gentleman. I have to respect the fact that he's willing to listen. I could take a lesson.
 
>>>They could do that. No one's stopping them. But would they be offended if the media chose to pass over their respectable, normal selves in favor of featuring the glitter brigade on the six o'clock news? They would probably be. So just stay home.

Well, again, I'm trying to make the "parade" both stand on its own and be a metaphor for life in general.

But let's start with actual parades. Will the regular masculine-acting folk be "offended" if the news mainly showed the glittery rainbow folk? Well, I'd say that would depend on why they joined the parade in the first place. Lord knows at least 90% of the Denver Pride Parade aren't glittery rainbow folk. Some you might peg as gay fairly easily, but they're not decked out in rainbow thongs or anything. And they're in the parade year after year. So obviously they're not offended by it.

And there's a bit of ad hoc reasoning there, because much of the footage I see of the parade on the news IS of the "non-flamboyant" type. Do they include footage of the drag queens and rainbow bois? You betcha. And why wouldn't they? They're a visually intriguing part of the parade, and something that sets it apart from (say) the St Patrick's Day parade. Footage of that parade usually includes people with green shamrock novelty glasses and "KISS ME I'M IRISH" t-shirts. And yes, there are those who feel that such people "give the Irish a band name". Same issue, different group. :)

So back to the metaphoric parade - life. By being not-easily-pegged-as-gay but out, I'd like to think I've joined that metaphorical parade. Where it's not just rainbow bois and drag queens. And when people meet me (and others like me), and are surprised I'm gay, I'm doing the same thing that being in the actual parade should do - showing the world that being gay is an extremely wide spectrum. Anybody can be gay. And no, people won't immediately think people who are like ME are gay...or think that most gays act like ME. I'd say that's the analogy to "being on the news". But that's not the point. I didn't come out to be "the face for gay people", other than to say "ANYBODY can be the face for gay people".

Lex
 
^ Right. But I certainly admire those that are willing to try and be my face. That's so sweet of them. A for effort.
 
That's cool. I don't have a problem with the way you dress but other people will. All I'm saying. ;)

Inattention to our education, to our communities and to the ...fuck-wits?

Other people already do but it's not my problem. :badgrin:
I loved this exchange - sam's rebuttal of rjmrjm spot on, travisevian's short short story placing responsibility right where it belongs with... conciseness? concision? As some have noted, it's not a problem faced soley by the fems, but by anyone that's "different," which leads to the question, different from what? whom?

I got kicked out of a gay bar once because a couple of lesbians percieved me as a drunk, straight, redneck attempting to get felt up by a lesbian who was offering free massages. I've organised civil rights protests in town, got fired from a job solely for being gay and appeared on Oprah about it, but these kids didn't know that. I've worn a dress to a wedding and a funeral and to nights out on the town, but I was ostracised because I wasn't "gay enough." A fem ex assumed I didn't face the same sort of harrassment he did growing up because I could "pass," and resented me for it. HE had a lot of problems and was incredibly socially maladjusted because of the way people demonize the "fem," but failed to realise people demonize EVERYONE.

It's not just that us gay folks have forgotten we're ALL in the same boat; it's the whole fucking planet! No-one here gets out alive, and we're all bozos on this bus, and we all need to be reminded of it until it suppresses all rational thought like a sickening mantra and even then I'm not convinced it will be enough.

A recent exchange with my dad reminded me of how, in middle school, I confessed to intentionally getting low marks because if my gpa was too high the other kids in school wouldn't like me. Society has a way of rounding off all our square pegs, and we all have a little bit that sticks out.

I am so in love with myself, I never worry about some queen with a feather boa making me look like the sort of person a hunky baseball playing, mom-eating apple-pie loving guy could never identify with. I LOVE the guy with the feather boa for making his sticky-outie bit stick a little bit more outie in the face of his detractors. Maybe, if the baseball player gets enough exposure, he'll stop eating his mom.
 
^No one gets kicked out of a gay bar unless they've done something really really horrible.

I don't give a damn who's boat you're on. My allegience goes to whomever is least likely to sell me out for not living up to their standards. It's as simple as that.
 
^No one gets kicked out of a gay bar unless they've done something really really horrible.
Hmph.
you're not exactly calling me a liar, perhaps you imply I did something really really horrible that I'm not fessing up to? I could tell you the whole long story, but I long ago gave up the need to clarify and explain myself to those who seem so eager to discount the validity of my experiences.
 
Hmph.
you're not exactly calling me a liar, perhaps you imply I did something really really horrible that I'm not fessing up to? I could tell you the whole long story, but I long ago gave up the need to clarify and explain myself to those who seem so eager to discount the validity of my experiences.

Not doubting validity. Sounded interesting is all.
 
Tell us something of the revolution in Australia that resulted in the decriminalisation of homosexual acts. I am interested to note how UK legislation in 1967 (The Homosexual Reform Act) impacted on Australia's response to reform of its own anti gay laws.

Were there riots in Australia, in support of reform of anti queer laws of a comparable nature to those that occurred at Stonewall in New York in 1969?

We have 7 states.

The state known as 'South Australia' decriminalised some homosexual acts in 1972 due to a murky gay-bashing murder and a closet-queen Premier.
http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2002/s552142.htm.

A few other states followed after that.

The oldest and most populous state is known as 'New South Wales' (its capital is Sydney. It decriminalised homosexual acts in 1984 after lobbying behind closed doors and a few years of street rallies. There were a number of 'Stonewall-type' street riots over instances of police raids of gay saunas and bars during the 1980s.
 
I could tell you the whole long story, but I long ago gave up the need to clarify and explain myself to those who seem so eager to discount the validity of my experiences.

Long, short. I've heard enough. Who asked? You volunteered. End of.
 
Can't we all just get along?

Fems, Masculines, blacks, whites, kinky and prudes...

We are all gays!!!

Of course not! There can only be ONE way to be gay: the straight way.
 
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