the latest Israel-Palistine conflicts ...

[manofsummer]

As I stated in my post #46 the Ottomans were as muslim as anyone in the middle east but they too had difficultly governing the arabs.

Agree or disagree but in the arab view their land was stolen and there's very little evidence that its because these people are jewish that they are objecting.

They didn't much like the british either.

And historically speaking european jews received far worse treatment from the christians in europe than the jews who were living in arab lands received from the muslims.

Correct. It's not jews that Arabs have a problem with, but any occupier, regardless of his race and religion.
When the jews migrated, the arabs welcomed them. But how did Israelis return the favor? By pillaging Palestinian villages and driving people ouf of their homes.
Palestinians are not just muslims. They are christian and jewish as well.
Yasser Arafat protected the Palestinian jews.
But some rednecks can't be objective when it comes to Israel. They will take any side as long as it opposes the Arab side.
They will twist the truth to suit their Islamphobic and Anti-Arab propaganda, because for them arab blood is cheap.
When Israel attacks hospitals, mosques and they call it an act of self-defense.
When Hamas reacts to a blockade, they call it terrorism.
When thousands of innocents die, they blame Hamas them for using as human shields.
Most Israelis are dying of fear and heart attacks, while Palestinian children are getting ripped into pieces.

And although I'm not religious, Islam is not any more than Christianity or Judaism.
There are extremists in every religion.
And the fact Hezbollah killed much more soldiers than civilians, is because they are seeking to achieve a military victory, while Israel's strategy consists of causing casualties as much as possible in order to make the resistance less popular.

 

[Kulindahr]

More speculation and fortune telling. You are so quick to protest the US's actions of "war on terror" and label Palestinians as terrorists but so defensive to the idea that Israel could possibly have done any kind of unethical or immoral acts that also can be labeled terrorism. Why? What are you trying to protect? Why deny yourself the opportunity to see the issue in the Middle East was created by both sides and will only end when both sides make compromises?

Because it wasn't "created by both sides", any more than WW II (Europe) was created by both sides. In the Middle East, the Arabs were the aggressors, and they haven't quit their war that started in '48.
Israel has made compromise after compromise -- and every time their enemies demand more. The only "compromise" their enemies will accept is all the Jews packing up and leaving -- and then they'll pursue the Jews around the world, to kill them in their new homes.
The Arab civilians in the area are just pawns of terrorists, who are proxies of Iran and other Arab states still pursuing their war of extermination. In Gaza, they voted in terrorists, which in the terrorists' own definitions makes them all fighters -- so these "Palestinians" are, by their own decision, part of the war. So by their terms, there haven't been any civilians killed, just fighters who didn't happen to be armed at the time.
That's to point out the hypocrisy by the "Palestinians" and their media friends: they want a double standard, where they can declare all "Zionists" of any age or gender to be enemies and legitimate to kill, but when some of their own -- by their definition legitimate targets -- get hurt. So Israel does better than any military in history at keeping down civilian -- by their definition -- casualties, while the terrorist state in Gaza tries to maximize them, but it's Israel which gets demonized.

 

[Kulindahr]

And historically speaking european jews received far worse treatment from the christians in europe than the jews who were living in arab lands received from the muslims.

If you can believe some of the headlines - anti-semitism is on the rise in Europe today.

Yeah, in the Middle Ages, Jews in Europe were forced into the banking occupation, and then roundly condemned for being money-handlers. There were bishops who tried to protect the Jews, but when mobs tried to burn their cathedrals, their "superiors" ordered them to relent. I wish I could recall the tome I read (1200 pages!) of the history of Jews in Europe, but it was sickening.

And anti-Semitism is on the rise in many places, due to the successful terrorist and Arab propaganda demonizing Israel for trying to survive.

 

[manofsummer]

^ I will only support an Israeli state if you support an Amerindian state in the USA and an aboriginal state in Australia.

 

[Kulindahr]

And the fact Hezbollah killed much more soldiers than civilians, is because they are seeking to achieve a military victory, while Israel's strategy consists of causing casualties as much as possible in order to make the resistance less popular.

Well, that's false. Seems to me that the IDF has been calling ahead, warning people of the imminent strikes, and giving them time to get clear. If you call that "causing casualties as much as possible", there's something seriously wrong.
The IDF trains in fighting so as to minimize civilian casualties, even though by the enemy's definitions those are not civilians; anyone from the age of 12 up is, by their definition, a fighter.

 

[Kulindahr]

^ I will only support an Israeli state if you support an Amerindian state in the USA and an aboriginal state in Australia.

Well, that at least acknowledges that the Jews belong there.

I've advocated for years that every "reservation" in the U.S. be its own state, with its own Senators and Representatives. Of course, that would increase the size of the Senate by at least 40%, but they'd get used to it.

I've never really thought about the aboriginal situation, but it would seem reasonable to do the same there: carve out a huge state -- for fun, call it "Outback" -- and give the aboriginals their own representatives in Parliament.

My solution to the Israeli situation would be a two-state confederation, altering their constitution so that the 'West Bank' and Gaza would form one state and current Israel would form the second. But the terrorist state in Gaza would never go for that; they want the Jews exterminated, in all the world, and terror would just go on no matter what concessions Israel makes.

 

[SoulSearcher]

Because it wasn't "created by both sides", any more than WW II (Europe) was created by both sides. In the Middle East, the Arabs were the aggressors, and they haven't quit their war that started in '48.
Israel has made compromise after compromise -- and every time their enemies demand more. The only "compromise" their enemies will accept is all the Jews packing up and leaving -- and then they'll pursue the Jews around the world, to kill them in their new homes.
The Arab civilians in the area are just pawns of terrorists, who are proxies of Iran and other Arab states still pursuing their war of extermination. In Gaza, they voted in terrorists, which in the terrorists' own definitions makes them all fighters -- so these "Palestinians" are, by their own decision, part of the war. So by their terms, there haven't been any civilians killed, just fighters who didn't happen to be armed at the time.
That's to point out the hypocrisy by the "Palestinians" and their media friends: they want a double standard, where they can declare all "Zionists" of any age or gender to be enemies and legitimate to kill, but when some of their own -- by their definition legitimate targets -- get hurt. So Israel does better than any military in history at keeping down civilian -- by their definition -- casualties, while the terrorist state in Gaza tries to maximize them, but it's Israel which gets demonized.

I think people like yourself are part of the Christian conspiracy to rot Judaism from the inside, like Christianity so very much already is. Even though Jesus was "Prince of Peace", Christians raped and pillaged the earth through the Crusades, World War I and II, Colonialism, Cross Atlantic Slavery, annihilation of natives in the Americas, Australia and New Zealand, and yet Islam and Muslims are evil. Christians and Europeans in particular invented virulent anti-Semitism, and yet today, Americans pretend like they care so much about Jews. Its not Jews they care about, they want to get Jews to indulge in morally reprehensbile acts, so that Jews renege from the historical Jewish legacy of always standing up for the underdogs, the weak and the voiceless. If they cared about Jews and Judaism, instead of giving unconditional support for any and every Israeli action, they'd be willing to tell us when we are wrong. But no. Judaism will not rot like Christianity, and even though circumstances and external forces have made a whole lot of Israelis blind to Palestinian suffering, the heart of Judaism is still very much true to its legacy of hope and renewal, and Jews will take back this legacy soon enough.

 

[manofsummer]

And anti-Semitism is on the rise in many places, due to the successful terrorist and Arab propaganda demonizing Israel for trying to survive.

It's anti-zionism that's on the rise, because people are no longer buying Israeli and American propaganda.
Latest news:
1-Israel is using white phosphorus shells considered illegal by International law.
2-Israeli artillery hits hospital.
3-Israeli raid killed at least four paramedics as they tried to reach wounded Palestinians. Ambulances have also been hit in the attacks.

How long will you keep defending Israel?
I would have respected you if you condemned violence on both sides, but you seem to consider every Palestinian a legitimate target.

 

[Kulindahr]

I think people like yourself are part of the Christian conspiracy to rot Judaism from the inside, like Christianity so very much already is. Even though Jesus was "Prince of Peace", Christians raped and pillaged the earth through the Crusades, World War I and II, Colonialism, Cross Atlantic Slavery, annihilation of natives in the Americas, Australia and New Zealand, and yet Islam and Muslims are evil. Christians and Europeans in particular invented virulent anti-Semitism, and yet today, Americans pretend like they care so much about Jews. Its not Jews they care about, they want to get Jews to indulge in morally reprehensbile acts, so that Jews renege from the historical Jewish legacy of always standing up for the underdogs, the weak and the voiceless. If they cared about Jews and Judaism, instead of giving unconditional support for any and every Israeli action, they'd be willing to tell us when we are wrong. But no. Judaism will not rot like Christianity, and even though circumstances and external forces have made a whole lot of Israelis blind to Palestinian suffering, the heart of Judaism is still very much true to its legacy of hope and renewal, and Jews will take back this legacy soon enough.

That's truly warped.
Americans do tell the Israelis when they're wrong.
And I'm not defending Israeli screw-ups, just pointing out that they do not deliberately target civilians, they go out of their way not to more than any military in history, and they've canceled operations when they didn't see a way to keep civilian casualties low. I'm only clarifying that they are not the aggressors in this, and only want to live in peace, but have to defend themselves against aggression.

 

[Kulindahr]

It's anti-zionism that's on the rise, because people are no longer buying Israeli and American propaganda.
Latest news:
1-Israel is using white phosphorus shells considered illegal by International law.
2-Israeli artillery hits hospital.
3-Israeli raid killed at least four paramedics as they tried to reach wounded Palestinians. Ambulances have also been hit in the attacks.

How long will you keep defending Israel?
I would have respected you if you condemned violence on both sides, but you seem to consider every Palestinian a legitimate target.

1. WP isn't illegal under international law; it would be covered under the Chemical Weapons Convention, and it isn't. Many nations have it in their arsenals, primarily for use generating smokescreens; only a handful have actually used it in combat (Russia and the U.S. are in that number).
2. When terrorists use a hospital as a military post, it becomes a military target.
3. Accidents happen in war.

No, the "Palestinians", i.e. Hamas, consider every "Palestinian" as a target, because they consider every Jew as a target. Their constant violation of the various conventions shows them as hypocrites when they appeal to those conventions to generate sympathy.

 

[syntax]

1. WP isn't illegal under international law; it would be covered under the Chemical Weapons Convention, and it isn't. Many nations have it in their arsenals, primarily for use generating smokescreens; only a handful have actually used it in combat (Russia and the U.S. are in that number).

In a addendum to the Geneva Convention, the use of WP is illegal as a conventional weapon when used against civilians. The US did not sign the section banning the weapon.

The use of incendiary weapons against civilians was banned (by signatory countries) in the 1980 Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons Protocol III. The USA has signed Articles I and II, but not Protocols III, IV, and V.

http://www.answers.com/topic/white-phosphorus

An Italian Radio network reported that the US used WP against civilians in its assault on Fallujah in Nov. 2004.

http://www.dawn.com
/2005/11/09/int3.htm

The Pentagon initially denied the claim that it was used against people, but only as illumination. It later amended the denial to state that it was used against people, but only "enemy combatants" not "civilians."

Also, the US used Mark77 in its initial assault on Iraq in 2003. Mark 77 is closely related to napalm.

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/08/08/1060145870882.html

 

[naked gent]

Yeah, in the Middle Ages, Jews in Europe were forced into the banking occupation, and then roundly condemned for being money-handlers.

I don't know so much that they were forced it was more that the catholic church banned usury which meant good christians could not lend money and collect interest so it more or less fell to the jews to be the moneylenders. (and it had the added benefit of being a profession with liquid assets which unlike land could be taken with them should the ruling authority kick them out)

Its worth remembering that today's Zionist movement began in the 19th century when most of the jews were forced out of Germany and into Russia which did not exactly welcome them.

The Russian pogroms of 1881 ended the belief of poor jews in the possibility of assimilation and the Dreyfus affair ended it for rich jews in the 1890's.

Once that belief was gone the jews of Europe turned to the zionists to lead them to a homeland.

 

[Kulindahr]

In a addendum to the Geneva Convention, the use of WP is illegal as a conventional weapon when used against civilians. The US did not sign the section banning the weapon.

http://www.answers.com/topic/white-phosphorus

An Italian Radio network reported that the US used WP against civilians in its assault on Fallujah in Nov. 2004.

http://www.dawn.com
/2005/11/09/int3.htm

The Pentagon initially denied the claim that it was used against people, but only as illumination. It later amended the denial to state that it was used against people, but only "enemy combatants" not "civilians."

Also, the US used Mark77 in its initial assault on Iraq in 2003. Mark 77 is closely related to napalm.

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/08/08/1060145870882.html

I don't believe for a moment that Israel is intentionally targeting civilians (not that, given the terrorists' behavior, it's easy to tell who's a combatant), which is what is banned -- accidents aren't.

My point was that its use is not illegal -- just that it not be aimed deliberately at civilians.

 

[Kulindahr]

I don't know so much that they were forced it was more that the catholic church banned usury which meant good christians could not lend money and collect interest so it more or less fell to the jews to be the moneylenders. (and it had the added benefit of being a profession with liquid assets which unlike land could be taken with them should the ruling authority kick them out)

Its worth remembering that today's Zionist movement began in the 19th century when most of the jews were forced out of Germany and into Russia which did not exactly welcome them.

The Russian pogroms of 1881 ended the belief of poor jews in the possibility of assimilation and the Dreyfus affair ended it for rich jews in the 1890's.

Once that belief was gone the jews of Europe turned to the zionists to lead them to a homeland.

In many, many places Jews were banned from almost all useful occupations, and all they had left was being peasants or bankers. They were banned as butchers because of their "unChristian" practices -- i.e. keeping it all kosher -- and from other occupations because they were taking work from "good Christians". I can't remember were it was (Mainz, maybe), but in at least one place Jews were forbidden to do any job a Christian wanted to do -- which was everything except banking.

The brief background for the Zionist movement is appreciated -- I'd forgotten how those pieces fit together.

 

[MystikWizard]

I find it ironic that Americans are now preaching about peace.
How did the USA react to 9/11? Did they remain passive or launch a full scale war on Iraq? I agree that was is not in anyone's interest.

It may sound like a joke, but there's a difference between the American people and the Government of this country. We were given false intelligence by President Bush that Iraq was providing aid and sanctuary to the militant group that was responsible for the murder of 3,000 American people. Obviously, we were out for blood to avenge the deaths of of our citizens.

Had we been given the correct intelligence, that there was no relationship between Saddam and Al Qaeda, you would have never seen the American people giving support for the Iraq War. We were taken advantage of by our country's leadership, were duped when our emotions were high after 9/11, and we paid the price. And that is why there was a changing in the guard, because people have finally come to realize that we were lied to, and have recognized the toll of the Iraq War.

Make no bones about it, the American people are furious at Bush. He is now officially the most unpopular President in modern history. And the public overwhelmingly voting for Obama, even traditionally Republican states like Indiana, North Carolina, and Virginia. It was the American public's way of sending a message to Washington that they are fuming at Bush and the Republican Party.

So if we had to do it all over again and knowing what we know now, the Iraq War would have never took place.

As far as the War in the Middle East, I sadly see both sides' perspectives. And I honestly don't know who's right and who's wrong, as it is an extremely complicated matter. I debate between whether Israel has a right to exist or not, as one has to keep in mind that the Jewish people were actually the first to occupy that land, regardless of whether "God" said that they were entitled to that land (which I personally don't believe, as I am Agnostic and feel that religion was used merely as a political tool since the beginning of life), but that does not change the fact that the historical records still place the Jews in that land first-- as they shared the land with the Canaanites.

However, that does not change the fact that centuries went by afterwards, and the land changed hands several times ... resulting in the Muslims occupying that land for centuries afterwards. That would be like the hypothetical example if the Native Americans all got together to kick the American people out of the country because they occupied the land first, and the Europeans simply invaded it. Obviously not a realistic example, but the point remains the same ... that the notion is absurd after we have occupied this land for centuries, as well.

So my whole perspective is that it simply is not our business in that the U.S. has no business taking sides in this conflict, I would remain neutral in the entire affair, and may the best country/group win. I know that may sound heartless, but neither side is going to give up until the other is extinguished. Not in this generation, at least.

 

[spiderhead]

Ok so I read maybe the first ten or fifteen posts and I'm wondering why everyone is so quick to blame Hamas for starting this when Israel had enforced an embargo against them for months before this war ever started and was systematically starving everyone living in Gaza?

If there were people on our borders stopping us from getting our imports and that caused us to starve to death I'd think people would want to fire some rockets.

 

[manofsummer]

Ok so I read maybe the first ten or fifteen posts and I'm wondering why everyone is so quick to blame Hamas for starting this when Israel had enforced an embargo against them for months before this war ever started and was systematically starving everyone living in Gaza?

If there were people on our borders stopping us from getting our imports and that caused us to starve to death I'd think people would want to fire some rockets.

You're asolutelly right. A naval and air blockade is an act of war under international law and a military response is legal, no country would react otherwise to a blockade. The Israelis were no longer following the truce; they attacked and killed five people in Gaza on Nov. 4.

 

[Kulindahr]

Kant is not gospel, just a theory. And to be technical, PLO's and Hammas use civilians as secondary targets. The primary target is the stability of the oppresive gov't in their view. If they had Israel's resources they would attack their military and gov't. And just because civilans aren't targeted by Israel all the time doesn't make the actions of Israel just if Israel has no right to occupy that land in the first place!!

What does an old dead philosopher have to do with it?

Let's see:
Jews legally emigrated there.
They legally purchased land there.
They were legally assigned a section of that land for a homeland.
They were attacked with the intent of wiping them all out, but they successfully defended themselves, so they've paid blood for what was legally theirs.

I personally despise Israel and Palestine for their actions and what their fighting has done to the world. The Jews didn't need a homeland after WWII. They could have moved to NYC and been more safe than they are in Israel. Hmm, building a Jewish dagger in the heart of the Arab world, what a brilliant idea.

"Didn't need a homeland"?
It's always been their homeland. Jerusalem has always been their capital, even when it had been stolen. "Next year in Jerusalem!" is a dear hope of every Jew. They have never given up on getting their land back.

 

[Kulindahr]

Um, emmigration to the USA was a valid option in the Zionist movement and so was establishing an unoccupied part of Africa as a Jewish state. And yes it would be better for gays to move to Alaska then say team up and plow a part of Iran as their own, surrounded by people who would execute them.
But as it is Israel and Palestine need to draw two efficently drawn countries and call it a century. 9/11 would have never happened if it werent for fucking Israel and the Zionist ownership of US Middle East policy. I am truely sorry about the holocaust but it doesnt justify what Israel has done.

What "unoccupied part of Africa"?
Attempted genocide doesn't justify trying to have your own land that you can stand on and be your own people, to defend yourselves?
I'll start worrying about what Israel has done when they get even close to deliberately killing six million civilians.
They've been "guests" in other people's lands for two millennia. They just want to be home, and you begrudge them that?

 

[Kulindahr]

They aren't guests in the USA anymore the Christians are guests in the USA. We are all suppose to be equally protected under law (unless ur gay evidentally). A Jew has just as much right here as an Arab. And that is how it should be. Nationalism results in war. Democracy results in peace.

Jews are guests everywhere since they were driven out of their home. Christians never had a homeland, they're not a people.

Democracy has about as good a record at peace as monarchies, btw.