The Official "Big Brother 12" Discussion Thread!

[falconfan]

Brendan and his bald head currently working out in the backyard shirtless totally looks like a Prison Bitch.

THat works for me. Screencaps please.

 

[falconfan]

Oh there can be no question that the "Brigade" rode Matt perfectly. Now they've just traded him for Brendon. Who has less allies to rely on and lacks a history of succeeding in Endurance. I say it every year No good comes from winning endurance (even those as anti-climatic as these years) they're the most memorable victories and make everyone in the house see you as a threat especially as everyone is keenly aware that's part of the final HOH.

 

[bobobo]

Has anyone noticed that, as a group, they are, um, stupid. What idiot would put an "I know your secret" note in someone's bed, then say, "I made your bed for you"? As well, everyone has believed every one of Ragan's Saboteur tricks though every one was false.

 

[aijalon18]

Aijalon, what integrity and principle is at work when the other members of the Brigade had every intention of ditching Matt before F4 (which goes against the deal the four of them made) and in fact sold him out to Britney this week? Don't get me wrong, I think those three guys had every right within the game to do that, but my point then is you can't hold Matt to some ridiculous standard that 1) has no place in a game and 2) the other members of the alliance haven't lived up to either.

Technically, Matt has done way more for the Brigade than they ever did for him since he won 2 HOHs for them, didn't use the Diamond to backdoor a Brigade, and has thus far refused to out any of them.

It seems you are determined to argue with me, but the other guys are not the same as Matt b/c none of them are pretending their wife has a disease. Personally i think lying about a sick family member for sympathy is as low as you can go. I dont think there's a place for that in this or any other game.

On top of that I dont agree with him messing Ragan about. Obviously Ragan is an adult but I think gay people deserve a little special consideration. So many gay guys have a rough time for being gay and just want to be respected and accepted by the straight guys. Matt pretended to do this but then makes fun of how Ragan is in love with him. That is perfectly fine w/in the game but i dont like it. Not every guy has it in them to flirt with a gay guy in order to win a game.

Matt is far worse than the brigade. He screwed himself out of the final 4. He got way to cocky and made himself untrustworthy. They would be stupid to keep him to f4 if he cant be trusted. What are they supposed to think if Ragan is crying and pleading in order to save Matt? They thought he turned first.

 

[Sgt Pepper]

It seems you are determined to argue with me, but the other guys are not the same as Matt b/c none of them are pretending their wife has a disease. Personally i think lying about a sick family member for sympathy is as low as you can go. I dont think there's a place for that in this or any other game.

I'm not determined to argue with you. I simply disagree with your conflation of moral values (which belong in the real world) and game moves (which belong in the game).

Remember, I don't like Matt either. I wasn't talking about Matt as a person (personally yes, I agree he's far worse and more weasly than Hayden/Enzo/Lane, and I can't stand his self-aggrandizing), I was referring instead to your curious assertion that there should be some kind of integrity in terms of not selling out your alliance, even if it's to save yourself, and that Matt should be held to this standard, when in reality the Brigade has already "betrayed" him. I also pointed out that they were correct in terms or gameplay to betray him, and therefore Matt would be similarly correct in terms of gameplay to betray them.

What are they supposed to think if Ragan is crying and pleading in order to save Matt? They thought he turned first.

Lane had his side alliance with Britney and Hayden had his side alliance with Kristin (and he outright said he would choose Kristin over the Brigade) so none of them are completely and only loyal to the Brigade.

But I can just not reply to your posts if you prefer.

 

[Sgt Pepper]

Also, Matt must have a weed-wacker in his pants. Remember his wife's mouth from a few weeks ago? Yech! He should've told them she had an oral disease; everyone would believe it.

 

[aijalon18]

I'm not determined to argue with you. I simply disagree with your conflation of moral values (which belong in the real world) and game moves (which belong in the game).

Remember, I don't like Matt either. I wasn't talking about Matt as a person (personally yes, I agree he's far worse and more weasly than Hayden/Enzo/Lane, and I can't stand his self-aggrandizing), I was referring instead to your curious assertion that there should be some kind of integrity in terms of not selling out your alliance, even if it's to save yourself, and that Matt should be held to this standard, when in reality the Brigade has already "betrayed" him. I also pointed out that they were correct in terms or gameplay to betray him, and therefore Matt would be similarly correct in terms of gameplay to betray them.

Even if that is your point it isnt really valid b/c they may have betrayed Matt but still never outed the brigade. They betrayed him b/c they felt they had to. He made the wrong moves. Trying to fuck up everyone's game just b/c ur going is completely fucked up and just shows you are a brat who cant handle a game.getting rid of someone who has become a liability is part of the game, being a poor sport baby is not.

 

[falconfan]

On top of that I dont agree with him messing Ragan about. Obviously Ragan is an adult but I think gay people deserve a little special consideration. So many gay guys have a rough time for being gay and just want to be respected and accepted by the straight guys. Matt pretended to do this but then makes fun of how Ragan is in love with him. That is perfectly fine w/in the game but i dont like it. Not every guy has it in them to flirt with a gay guy in order to win a game.

Matt is far worse than the brigade. He screwed himself out of the final 4. He got way to cocky and made himself untrustworthy. They would be stupid to keep him to f4 if he cant be trusted. What are they supposed to think if Ragan is crying and pleading in order to save Matt? They thought he turned first.

I don't think gay people deserve any sort of special consideration. In fact I'd be insulted if someone told me that they handle handle me special because I'm oh so delicate.

I think the concept you're referring to is something wholly different and that's playing with someone's heart be they homosexual or heterosexual. I do understand how that could be seen as different than normal gameplay strategy/deceit. But many a person has taken advantage of someone having a crush in this game and I don't think it's the most henious thing ever. It's not like there's anything genuinely deep there that he's exploiting.

 

[falconfan]

Even if that is your point it isnt really valid b/c they may have betrayed Matt but still never outed the brigade. They betrayed him b/c they felt they had to. He made the wrong moves. Trying to fuck up everyone's game just b/c ur going is completely fucked up and just shows you are a brat who cant handle a game.getting rid of someone who has become a liability is part of the game, being a poor sport baby is not.

The betrayed him because they realized that in the end game Ragan and Brit would protect him over them unless they moved fast and they did move fast and they were keen on that insight. But by the time this week started they wanted Matt out. They wanted Brit to BD him before teh veto comp. And kudos to them and their boring but accurate gameplay. Which is something Matt, I promise, will be unable to say. He will be a sore loser. He just doesn't know this game like he thinks he does. He told Ragan if he could do something differently it would be putting Brit up instead of Kathy when Ragan told him he should've put up Hayden. Ragan was completely right of course because without Hayden Enzo and Lane would've been more vulnerable, less likely to be gunning for Matt and Brit would've had a throw away nominee to put up who she doesn't like, as apposed to Hayden who she gets along with.

 

[aijalon18]

I don't think gay people deserve any sort of special consideration. In fact I'd be insulted if someone told me that they handle handle me special because I'm oh so delicate.

I think the concept you're referring to is something wholly different and that's playing with someone's heart be they homosexual or heterosexual. I do understand how that could be seen as different than normal gameplay strategy/deceit. But many a person has taken advantage of someone having a crush in this game and I don't think it's the most henious thing ever. It's not like there's anything genuinely deep there that he's exploiting.

It's not about being delicate. Sometimes you should treat gay people different b/c they ARE different. Different doesnt always mean bad. Everyone has problems. but gay people have problems that everyone else has in addition to uniquely gay challenges. Gay guys, especially very feminine ones, often have a traumatic history with straight guys. People having special consideration for that shouldnt be treated as an insult but as someone being considerate. It isnt about people treating you like you're 5, but just someone thinking "i'm not gonna fuck with this gay guy's emotions and exploit him, he's prolly been through enough."

 

[falconfan]

It's not about being delicate. Sometimes you should treat gay people different b/c they ARE different. Different doesnt always mean bad. Everyone has problems. but gay people have problems that everyone else has in addition to uniquely gay challenges. Gay guys, especially very feminine ones, often have a traumatic history with straight guys. People having special consideration for that shouldnt be treated as an insult but as someone being considerate. It isnt about people treating you like you're 5, but just someone thinking "i'm not gonna fuck with this gay guy's emotions and exploit him, he's prolly been through enough."

It's not a "special condition." Everyone has thinks that strike a particular nerve more than others because of something that has happened in their life. But if you don't know their life you shouldn't assume you know what they've been through based on sexual orientation, race, gender, place of origin, or what have you. It's one thing to say so and so told him that when he was younger he had a crush on this straight guy for years and yada yada yada so he should know to be sensitive about that but to say he's gay so you should assume that he was just so hopelessly and hapless screwed over in some way shape or form by some straight guy at some point in time of course because that's how it goes... that's presumptious and a might silly.

 

[Sgt Pepper]

Even if that is your point it isnt really valid b/c they may have betrayed Matt but still never outed the brigade. They betrayed him b/c they felt they had to. He made the wrong moves. Trying to fuck up everyone's game just b/c ur going is completely fucked up and just shows you are a brat who cant handle a game.

My point is not that he should out the Brigade out of spite, but that he should do it as a last ditch effort to save himself. Something along the lines of, "Yeah I was with these guys, but now they've ditched me and so I have no loyalty to them anymore. So if you get rid of me, you're just keeping those three still intact, rather than keeping someone who could help you fight them."

I agree with most here that it probably wouldn't work -- partly because Matt is such a terrible salesman, and also because he has killed his own credibility by betraying Ragan (his #1 ally) which makes him look untrustworthy -- but he's got nothing left to lose, and he deserves the chance to try to save his own life in the game. To say that he shouldn't do so out of some sense of "integrity" or "principle" is silly. It's a game. There's no integrity other than obeying the rules of the game, and the rules allow you to say any damn thing you want to stay in the game.

This would be like playing chess with your best friend, and you have the opportunity to take their queen, and your friend says, "You're my best friend so you shouldn't take my queen. It says something about our relationship outside this game if you take my queen. You don't have any integrity, loyalty or principle if you take my queen." Do you see how obviously silly that is? Whoever you are in real life -- and whatever your value system is in real life (and certainly, you should have one) -- has no bearing on how well you play chess, or football, or Monopoly, or poker, or yes even Big Brother.

getting rid of someone who has become a liability is part of the game,

Finally, we agree. It's just a game. And that's why Matt should try whatever he can to stay. It won't work (and that's his own damn fault), but he should at least try. I find it more interesting to watch when every player is doing exactly what is best for him/her in the game.

 

[Sgt Pepper]

The betrayed him because they realized that in the end game Ragan and Brit would protect him over them unless they moved fast and they did move fast and they were keen on that insight. But by the time this week started they wanted Matt out. They wanted Brit to BD him before teh veto comp. And kudos to them and their boring but accurate gameplay. Which is something Matt, I promise, will be unable to say. He will be a sore loser. He just doesn't know this game like he thinks he does.

ITA. Matt is NOT a great player but he thinks he is -- for all the wrong reasons his fans think he is -- and he'll be unable to appreciate that someone like Hayden, a seemingly typical jock, actually outplayed him. The problem with players like Matt and Rachel and Brendan, is the same mantra that some fans of the show keep repeating (including here) i.e. "So and so is actually playing the game." And what they usually mean is, "So and so is winning competitions or making bold moves." Well you know what? That doesn't always indicate good gameplay (in fact it often indicates exactly the opposite). The best way to play Big Brother has always been to NOT play, and doggone it, Hayden and Enzo totally get that. Good for them! They seem to be the only people this season who do.

 

[falconfan]

The best way to play Big Brother has always been to NOT play, and doggone it, Hayden and Enzo totally get that. Good for them! They seem to be the only people this season who do.

Well you do have to play to some extent, to earn respect and not wind up like Erika in All-Stars. The key is balancing your reputation so you're not the most badass but once the badasses have been taken out you're the last badass standing.

 

[joesman]

ITA. Matt is NOT a great player but he thinks he is -- for all the wrong reasons his fans think he is -- and he'll be unable to appreciate that someone like Hayden, a seemingly typical jock, actually outplayed him. The problem with players like Matt and Rachel and Brendan, is the same mantra that some fans of the show keep repeating (including here) i.e. "So and so is actually playing the game." And what they usually mean is, "So and so is winning competitions or making bold moves." Well you know what? That doesn't always indicate good gameplay (in fact it often indicates exactly the opposite). The best way to play Big Brother has always been to NOT play, and doggone it, Hayden and Enzo totally get that. Good for them! They seem to be the only people this season who do.

Perhaps you are right but in playing by not playing you are also, not entertaining and this is an entertainment show. So I prefer people who play in the competitions, socially and physically. While I am not adverse to flying under the radar for some people (Dan did that very well but knew when he had to put out), I am not for slackers winning as Jordan did last year. I really thought that Natalie played a lot better game but her social game was nil and Jordan did nada which irked the hell out of me. Just because you are pretty, and likable as Jordan and Jeff were, does not mean you should be handed everything, as Jordan and Jeff were.

 

[Sgt Pepper]

Well you do have to play to some extent, to earn respect and not wind up like Erika in All-Stars. The key is balancing your reputation so you're not the most badass but once the badasses have been taken out you're the last badass standing.

I really do think now that Erika lost because -- and this says a lot about the numbskulls on the All Star jury -- she was fundamentally less well-liked than Boogie. It's hard to believe that anyone could stand being around Boogie but the fact is, he spent time bonding with people and having fun with them while Erika cried a lot. I think juries talk about "respect" and such -- and maybe it factors into their voting if there are two people they hate or love equally -- but in general, juries vote for who they like more.

Will won BB2, Lisa won BB3 and Jun won BB4 despite seeming like weak competitors and despite not really doing anything flashy in terms of what fans consider bold moves (like Danielle convincing Marcellas not to use the veto etc). But they were either fun to be around, spent time bonding with people and/or sat in the finals with someone less liked. Technically -- according to your assumption falconfan -- Erika "played" more on All Stars than either of these three winners did on their respective seasons by 1) winning more competitions than all of them and 2) making a big bold move in getting Janelle to evict Will. And all three of those winners sat next to people in the finals who either won more competitions or made "bigger", "bolder" moves. The jury accused Erika of doing nothing -- most loudly by an embarrassingly drunk Janelle on Jury Q&A night -- but I think that accusation simply belied the fact that they just didn't like her very much.

Linda Holmes -- who spent years writing insightful recaps of Survivor and Big Brother on Television Without Pity and is now a pop-culture critic at NPR -- does a better job than I just did of explaining how juries vote on these shows (in an excellent criticism of the Russell Hantz hype, and the silly assumption that he "deserved" to win Survivor). You guys should read this full article, especially if you watched the last season of Survivor. Anyway, here's a snippet that is relevant to my point:

When I was out in Pasadena in January for the Television Critics Association press tour, we attended CBS's Survivor reunion event, where there were all kinds of people from all 20 seasons milling around.

At one point, I was talking to a couple of people and was explaining my theory that juries generally vote for people they like — at the very least, they won't vote for someone they dislike over someone they like, no matter how anyone played.

So I asked them, "Do you think it's true that jurors basically just vote for the person they like more?" They both not only agreed, but they treated this as the most obvious thing on the planet. They both sat on juries. They both know that people do not sit there and think, for instance, "Sure, Russell is a bullying jerk and Sandra seems like kind of a rad, funny lady, but I'm voting for him — you know, out of respect for his game play."

Doesn't happen. Hasn't ever happened. It is a million dollars. Think about whether you'd give a McDonalds coupon to someone you didn't like if your other choice was someone you did like, then think about how many McDonalds coupons are in a million dollars.

People vote for people they don't like, yes, but only when the other choice is someone they also dislike, and usually someone they dislike (or resent) more. That's why, if you aren't likable and you want to win, you'd better make sure the other choice is someone who also isn't likable. Game play — and all kinds of other wackadoodle factors drawn from psychology, sociology, and sleep deprivation — will enter into it if people are picking between two people they like, or two people they don't. But none of those factors will make people give a million dollars to someone they can't stand over someone they like.

I think she's quite right. I think jurors say things like "I will vote for the best player, I will vote for who I respect more" etc but I think they're either just hiding what they view as less-than-honorable motivations (likability, pettiness, the mysterious whims of personal interaction) OR -- in some cases -- they really do believe they're "objectively" choosing the best player when 1) No such thing exists and 2) Your subjective interpretation of the best player is highly influenced by your personal feelings toward the Final 2 and the outcome of the game in general.

And there is absolutely nothing wrong with this. It is fundamentally what the game is about. Jessica from Big Brother 8 actually (unintentionally) said it best when she cast her vote for Dick Donato on finale night: "I'm voting for who I enjoyed more in the House." It got a round of applause from the audience as a hilarious Jessica-comment but it actually is (I think) a universal maxim.

 

[Sgt Pepper]

Joesman, that's a good point about the distinction between entertainment and gameplay. People enjoy these shows for all sorts of different reasons, and if you're watching to be entertained by big moves, big wins and big personalities (which most people are), then I certainly don't blame you for rooting for those kinds of players. There's always some overlap anyway. Janelle had ZERO game but she's one of my personal favorites because I like her as a person and found her entertaining.

 

[Aratron]

So you think that let's say Sharon played better than Janelle?

 

[joesman]

These are pretty damn funny;

http://www.bsideblog.com/2010/08/big-brother-photocap-the-crying-game/

 

[Adrock-JD]

I never had any problem with them individually... they're just really boring. And the rest of the season is going to be slow, dwindling and predictable. I actually think I might start rooting for Brendon if Brit leaves but only if he continues not to mention Rachel that frequently.

I feel the same way. Brendon w/o Rachel isn't a bad character. He seems genuine and subdued. More natural acting.

If he'd just not say anything about her on camera ever again. Everytime he does, I stick my finger in my mouth. Even though no one else is in the room watching with me. Sometimes, I'll give the bird to the tv when he's drooling about her or calling her the love of his life. gag. vomit. For fuck's sake, dude, you just met her on a reality tv show and you could do so much better. She's way beneath you.
I just wanna slap the piss outta him, or shake him and say, Snap Out of It!

He's bringing down the curve for everyone. He's a very attractive man, what a waste.

The "show" they put on everynight for Showtime is stupid. Ragan always wants to discuss comps and production. Funny how they allow it on Showtime but cut the feeds or say "Stop that" on live feeds.