The Pope on gay marriage

[kallipolis]

Significance of the Ms-Davis-meeting? Zero, IMHO.
Reason:
The Pontifex isn't always or merely a religious leader; he's also and predominantly when paying a state visit a (foreign) Head of State (insofar, "outsider" is correct). And in that role, paying a state visit, he meets dissidents — of all shades. That may be disenthraling in that particular case, but it's no different if another Head of State is meeting dissidents. It's just a diplomatic custom, after all.

Francis also assumes the position of mediator, and spiritual advisor with those with whom he may not be entirely comfortable.

As is often the case on this forum there is a presumption of guilt, when religous leaders such as Francis meet with people who are considered by many here to be the enemy of the enlightenment.

 

[kallipolis]

It is my impression that Apostolic Christians do not adhere to the idea of papal infallibility. And at least some Apostolic Christians do not subscribe to the concept of the Trinity as three separate entities. In that general context, can anyone shed some light on the religious significance (if any) of Mrs. Davis’ counsel from Pope Francis. Does the outcome of their meeting constitute an endorsement of Mrs. Davis' positions and actions from an outsider, or does it qualify as a significant blessing of some sort from the leader of a sect of the faith that is not Apostolic Christian?

Those who post here with their predictable agenda driven angst believe that Francis endorses the position of Kim Davies, simply because he met her in private, and gave her a gift of rosary beads. That's all we know.....the rest is speculation, driven by anger, and bitterness that Francis should dare to meet with Kim Davis.

Jesus of Nazareth met with many of his detractors, particularly the Pharisees who for the most part, represented the opposite of everything that Jesus expressed as the word of God.

In retrospect had Francis not relied upon the advice of several American bishops, and had received wiser counsel he would not have met with Kim Davies....I understand this morning from my pal working in The Vatican that the more progressive elements there are annoyed with the actions of those American bishops who acted so inappropriately by arranging this meeting with Kim Davis.

We should recall that Francis is an Argentine with little, or no understanding of the American Puritan mindset...I blame Oliver Cromwell

 

[kallipolis]

And, when gullibility is the judge, the verdict always not guilty.

Speculation and hatred have nothing to do with it. One doesn't need to get into the content of the meeting to know, as now confirmed, that the Pope took the time to meet with a rabidly anti-gay polemicist. He was then directly questioned on the issue and failed to disclose a meeting, which is at the core of what he is talking about. He's supposed to be a moral leader, not a poker player. The choice, symbolism and impact of the meeting is unavoidable and speaks for itself.

At odds with the compassion and respect towards gays that he preached. At best, the Pope was politically naive. At worst, hateful and duplicitous.

Your speculative forays into this forum always follow a predictable pattern filled with judgement, and angst resonating with those here who are determined that Francis is guilty...as charged....all based on the assumption that face, to face association with Kim Davis is sufficient evidence of guilt.

 

[Jacquemar]

LOL, I guess you misunderstood me completely. The Pontiff quite certainly doesn't care what she opposes regarding the Pontiff's policies. The point is: She can be considered a dissident regarding the state he is visiting. She doesn't have the significance of an Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, that's completely clear. But she is some sort of dissident, and that's the point where diplomatic customs play a role

Yes, I completely misunderstood you. Thank you very much for clarifying.

And now that I read your first post again, I'm laughing at my own error.

 

[Spensed]

Your speculative forays into this forum always follow a predictable pattern filled with judgement, and angst resonating with those here who are determined that Francis is guilty...as charged....all based on the assumption that face, to face association with Kim Davis is sufficient evidence of guilt.

You're missing the point. All that is being asserted is that the Pope found the time to meet with a very divisive religious bigot as opposed to, say, another victim of the Church's abuse of children or showing mercy to a terminally ill patient. In the context of a papal state visit, that choice speaks for itself.

I am happy to wait to see what else unfolds so no need for your knee-jerk apologias.

 

[kallipolis]

You're missing the point. All that is being asserted is that the Pope found the time to meet with a very divisive religious bigot as opposed to, say, another victim of the Church's abuse of children or showing mercy to a terminally ill patient. In the context of a papal state visit, that choice speaks for itself.

I am happy to wait to see what else unfolds so no need for your knee-jerk apologias.

Your predictable choice of words reveals another agenda clearly enunciated in your opening post on this thread....no ambiguity when you post.

Francis met several victims of clerical abuse, privately (1)....I note that, that meeting is not being discussed here....clearly you are unaware that he did meet several sexual abuse victims...and, Francis met with sick pilgrims during his street tours.

Knee jerk reactions otherwise known as, speculative deductions are also a predictable reality on this forum.


(1) http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/27/pope-meets-with-sexual-abuse-victims-philadelphia

I quote:

The pontiff met five victims, now adults, in a private meeting on Sunday morning before starting public engagements in Philadelphia, which was gearing up for a huge, farewell mass.

 

[otters]

You're missing the point. All that is being asserted is that the Pope found the time to meet with a very divisive religious bigot as opposed to, say, another victim of the Church's abuse of children or showing mercy to a terminally ill patient. In the context of a papal state visit, that choice speaks for itself.

I am happy to wait to see what else unfolds so no need for your knee-jerk apologias.

Do you have any idea with how many douchebags of all shades a mere politician, let alone a Head of State like the Pontiff, has to meet?

And do you have any idea whether or not the mere politician in question, let alone a Head of State like the Pontiff, has any chance to choose whom exactly they'll meet when?

Buddy, you don't have any idea, apparently. Often even the closest family members of a politician, let alone a Head of State, have to make schedule arrangements with the politician's staff [!], not with herself or himself.

 

[Telstra]

The pope hugged kim Davis and said "Thank you for your courage, stay strong "

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-10-01/pope-secretly-met-kentucky-clerk-in-gay-marriage-row/6818448

 

[otters]

The pope hugged kim Davis and said "Thank you for your courage, stay strong "

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-10-01/pope-secretly-met-kentucky-clerk-in-gay-marriage-row/6818448

Do you have any idea how often a politician, let alone a Head of State like the Pontiff, has to hug another person, even if they deem that particular person actually repulsive?

Obviously, as so often, you don't have any idea, Telstra.

 

[Telstra]

Do you have any idea how often a politician, let alone a Head of State like the Pontiff, has to hug another person, even if they deem that particular person actually repulsive?

Obviously, as so often, you don't have any idea, Telstra.

Is she that important that the pope has to meet her?
Meaning the pope is supporting her.

 

[otters]

Is she that important that the pope has to meet her?
Meaning the pope is supporting her.

You suppose actual "support"? Because Ms Kim Davis and her advocates claim that?

As stated previously, whenever a Head of State is paying a state visit, they have to meet a lot of people, may these people douchebags, or not.

 

[KaraBulut]

...As stated previously, whenever a Head of State is paying a state visit, they have to meet a lot of people, may these people douchebags, or not.

And stay tuned because whoever arranged the audience is probably going to retire or be moved to "special projects".

 

[otters]

And stay tuned because whoever arranged the audience is probably going to retire or be moved to "special projects".

Exactly

 

[KaraBulut]

Do you have any idea how often a politician, let alone a Head of State like the Pontiff, has to hug another person, even if they deem that particular person actually repulsive?

Or had a picture made with someone that they just met?

 

[Spensed]

Same old partisan pitter-patter. The Pope can do no wrong. He can meet with a divisive religious bigot because he has ticked off the boxes with some sexual abuse victims, etc. Or, he can meet with a divisive religious bigot because someone else is in control of his schedule. He couldn't possibly have met with her because he is fundamentally antithetical to gays, despite his fine words, or because he made an error of judgment.

Glib to paint anyone who criticizes the Pope as having an animus towards him. I don't I just think the meeting was a willful or negligent mistake that contradicts his message of compassion and inclusion and probably shows the Pope in the true anti-gay colors that he wore in Argentina.

A good thing that comes from this is the emphasis on the primacy of conscience, a premise in the Catechism used by many Catholics to ignore the hierarchy's teachings on gay sex, contraception, etc. If informed conscience means that one just needs to be fully aware of the hierarchy's theories but steer one's own course, that one's home and dry.

 

[otters]

blah blah blah

Spensed, your Anti-Catholic drivel is completely pointless because you unfortunately aren't perceptive enough that the Pontiff isn't just a religious leader, but also — and especially regarding the merely some 30 years history of Holy See/United States full diplomatic relations —, a foreign HEAD OF STATE.

 

[KaraBulut]

Same old partisan pitter-patter. The Pope can do no wrong. He can meet with a divisive religious bigot because he has ticked off the boxes with some sexual abuse victims, etc. Or, he can meet with a divisive religious bigot because someone else is in control of his schedule. He couldn't possibly have met with her because he is fundamentally antithetical to gays, despite his fine words, or because he made an error of judgment.

Spensed, your Anti-Catholic drivel is completely pointless because you unfortunately aren't perceptive enough that the Pontiff isn't just a religious leader, but also — and especially regarding the merely some 30 years history of Holy See/United States full diplomatic relations —, a foreign HEAD OF STATE.

There's a scene in Devil Wears Prada where the Miranda (the Streep character) is at a party and her two assistants are feeding her names and quick facts about the people she's about to meet.

That's pretty much the stagecraft of these events. The foreign dignitary usually has little or no clue who they are meeting (which is why the Pope was saying the few pablum english phrases he knows- like 'Pray for me'- which Davis in her ignorance and self-righteousness took as a 'personal message of encouragement from the Pope').

This was an audience that was arranged by someone in the US Catholic hierarchy. Davis was in town for the Values Voter Conference (hosted in part by Duggar's former employer, the Family Research Council).

The connection between the Values Voter Conference, Liberty Counsel and the US Conference of Bishops and how these things resulted in the private audience has yet to be explained. But given the bad optics and ugly press of the past couple of days, someone will probably be taking the fall for it.

 

[Spensed]

Spensed, your Anti-Catholic drivel is completely pointless because you unfortunately aren't perceptive enough that the Pontiff isn't just a religious leader, but also — and especially regarding the merely some 30 years history of Holy See/United States full diplomatic relations —, a foreign HEAD OF STATE.

Look in the mirror, my tolerant and compassionate pro-Pope friend. The fact that the Pope is a head of state has nothing to do with him choosing to meet with an anti-gay bigot. If anything it makes it worse. Criticizing the Pope's choices isn't anti-Catholic. Endorsing deliberate or negligent anti-gay behavior is anti-gay. See also the anti-gay choices made by the Pope in Argentina.

 

[Spensed]

There's a scene in Devil Wears Prada where the Miranda (the Streep character) is at a party and her two assistants are feeding her names and quick facts about the people she's about to meet.

That's pretty much the stagecraft of these events. The foreign dignitary usually has little or no clue who they are meeting (which is why the Pope was saying the few pablum english phrases he knows- like 'Pray for me'- which Davis in her ignorance and self-righteousness took as a 'personal message of encouragement from the Pope').

This was an audience that was arranged by someone in the US Catholic hierarchy. Davis was in town for the Values Voter Conference (hosted in part by Duggar's former employer, the Family Research Council).

The connection between the Values Voter Conference, Liberty Counsel and the US Conference of Bishops and how these things resulted in the private audience has yet to be explained. But given the bad optics and ugly press of the past couple of days, someone will probably be taking the fall for it.

I get all of that. But it doesn't absolve him of his role in what happened. Clearly, the sheepish Vatican response betokens an element of regret. The Pope could have made his point about conscience and religious freedom in many other ways without leaving a bad taste in the mouths of many of his supporters.

 

[Spensed]

As I said in my original post on this thread, the Pope's behavior, though very disappointing, is hardly surprising, given his anti-gay rhetoric in Argentina, which probably helped him get elected:

http://www.glaad.org/blog/new-pope-elected-record-anti-gay-language

He meets with a high profile anti-gay bigot, but refuses to engage with gay Catholics:

http://www.glaad.org/blog/wake-secret-kim-davis-meeting-glaad-renews-call-pope-meet-lgbt-catholic

That makes his calls for others not to be judgmental, and for inclusion, inconsistent and appear less than authentic.

I suspect that many Gay Catholics want to live with a romanticized notion of what the Pope and the Church's hierarchy really thinks about gays and, on the plus side, the meeting with Kim Davis is a wake up call and a necessary reminder, for some, that the Pope is not much of an ally and that there is much work left to be done.