The Pope on gay marriage

[zoltanspawn]

The Pope made a mistake. That happens, right? Even if it was a rather disgraceful one?

There are some on both sides of this issue, over-attacking and over-defending.

I think it's only fair to notice both his accomplishments and his failings.

 

[kallipolis]

I am always amused by the anti religion zealots posting on this thread whose progressive values include demanding that one person namely, Kim Davis should not be allowed to speak to Francis because she's a bad girl...who has done bad things....

 

[kallipolis]

Kim Davis must be very pleased that her antics have guaranteed her an enormous amount of advertising on gay discussion boards....

 

[otters]

Look in the mirror, my tolerant and compassionate pro-Pope friend. The fact that the Pope is a head of state has nothing to do with him choosing to meet with an anti-gay bigot. If anything it makes it worse. Criticizing the Pope's choices isn't anti-Catholic. Endorsing deliberate or negligent anti-gay behavior is anti-gay. See also the anti-gay choices made by the Pope in Argentina.

Actually, the Pontiff is the one who must be veeeeery tolerant, since he "chose" to meet MANY Anti-Catholic bigot douchebags during his state visit, basically all US American Protestants who believe that the Pontiff is some dangerous (Anti-Christian) warlock, or Anti-Christ himself — including Ms Kim Davis…

 

[TX-Beau]

Do you have any idea with how many douchebags of all shades a mere politician, let alone a Head of State like the Pontiff, has to meet?

And do you have any idea whether or not the mere politician in question, let alone a Head of State like the Pontiff, has any chance to choose whom exactly they'll meet when?

Buddy, you don't have any idea, apparently. Often even the closest family members of a politician, let alone a Head of State, have to make schedule arrangements with the politician's staff [!], not with herself or himself.

Then all he has to do is say he doesn't agree with her. What do you think the chances of that are?

By the way they have handled this so far, it's pretty apparent they knew, and yet, not one peep that the "inclusive" pontiff disagreed in any way whatsoever.

 

[kallipolis]

Then all he has to do is say he doesn't agree with her. What do you think the chances of that are?

By the way they have handled this so far, it's pretty apparent they knew, and yet, not one peep that the "inclusive" pontiff disagreed in any way whatsoever.

All this assumes that you know what transpired as conversation between Francis, and Kim Davis.

Francis may well believe that a private conversation, should not be divulged to the world's press.

Or, are you relying on the public relations exercise provided by Kim Davis' handlers?

 

[Spensed]

The Pope made a mistake. That happens, right? Even if it was a rather disgraceful one?

There are some on both sides of this issue, over-attacking and over-defending.

I think it's only fair to notice both his accomplishments and his failings.

I agree with you. The trouble is that many gay Catholics and their allies are so used to contorting themselves to fit in with the hierarchy's anti-gay positions that no criticism can be tolerated. I think one can be a gay Catholic without with pink glasses.

I didn't to suggest that the Kim Davis meeting wiped out the Pope's good side. But it is inconsistent with his message of tolerance and inclusion and it is a reminder of his rabidly anti-gay past.

 

[KaraBulut]

Huffington Posts' alleged "transcript" of the meeting:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...ng-with-pope-francis_560c2fcce4b0dd85030a555d

 

[kallipolis]

I agree with you. The trouble is that many gay Catholics and their allies are so used to contorting themselves to fit in with the hierarchy's anti-gay positions that no criticism can be tolerated. I think one can be a gay Catholic without with pink glasses.

I didn't to suggest that the Kim Davis meeting wiped out the Pope's good side. But it is inconsistent with his message of tolerance and inclusion and it is a reminder of his rabidly anti-gay past.

I would hazard a guess that the content of a private meeting between Francis, and Kim Davis is private....

...and that the ongoing stream of speculation on this thread, from well established anti religion posters speaks more of their prejudices that it does of the content of the conversation between the pope, and Kim Davis....that remains confidential.

 

[Spensed]

I am always amused by the anti religion zealots posting on this thread whose progressive values include demanding that one person namely, Kim Davis should not be allowed to speak to Francis because she's a bad girl...who has done bad things....

You're trivializing and distorting the criticisms of the meeting. To complain about it does not make one an anti-religious zealot. Davis is not a bad girl, but a self-promoting anti-gay bigot. The problem is not the meeting, but the context, the message it sends and the lack of a balancing engagement with pro-gay Catholics and so on.

As you point out, the meeting has been taken by Davis as an endorsement and fed her apparent desire for self-promoting publicity. That is the opportunity the Pope gave her and she took it.

You seem to think that religious leaders can do not wrong and that it's hostile to criticize them. The fact remains that the meeting was disappointing for many of the Pope's supporters gay and straight and it taints his visit. If its purpose was to promote the primacy of conscience and the freedom of religion, it has failed miserably.

 

[kallipolis]

Huffington Posts' alleged "transcript" of the meeting:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...ng-with-pope-francis_560c2fcce4b0dd85030a555d

Hilariously funny...and, entertaining read....

 

[kallipolis]

You're trivializing and distorting the criticisms of the meeting. To complain about it does not make one an anti-religious zealot. Davis is not a bad girl, but a self-promoting anti-gay bigot. The problem is not the meeting, but the context, the message it sends and the lack of a balancing engagement with pro-gay Catholics and so on.

As you point out, the meeting has been taken by Davis as an endorsement and fed her apparent desire for self-promoting publicity. That is the opportunity the Pope gave her and she took it.

You seem to think that religious leaders can do not wrong and that it's hostile to criticize them. The fact remains that the meeting was disappointing for many of the Pope's supporters gay and straight and it taints his visit. If its purpose was to promote the primacy of conscience and the freedom of religion, it has failed miserably.

I believe that neither you, nor I have a right to deny people the right to meet with whom they please...that's a fundamental human right.

Tom Paine's words, explain why I believe this:

He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself.

 

[Spensed]

^I agree with you. But then you can't deny my right to criticize the decision to have the meeting, or to have it in the context of a formal state visit, or not have meetings with pro-Gay Catholic groups and so on. So please stop attacking people for exercising that right.

 

[kallipolis]

^I agree with you. But then you can't deny my right to criticize the decision to have the meeting, or to have it in the context of a formal state visit, or not have meetings with pro-Gay Catholic groups and so on. So please stop attacking people for exercising that right.

The issue being discussed here is the right of Francis, to meet with whom he likes...

Your right to be an anti religion bigot, by posting your predictable rants here is not being disputed...

 

[opinterph]

… speculation, driven by anger, and bitterness that Francis should dare to meet with Kim Davis.

… I understand this morning from my pal working in The Vatican that the more progressive elements there are annoyed with the actions of those American bishops who acted so inappropriately by arranging this meeting with Kim Davis.

It seems reasonable for the Pope to meet with Mrs. Davis – from his position of leadership or that of the Catholic Church. Perhaps the meeting was ill conceived from the perspective of progressive elements within the Vatican or from some rank and file Catholics. Much of the discussion in this thread centers upon the question of whether the Pope (or his schedulers) should have granted Mrs. Davis a meeting.

[The Pontiff] "chose" to meet MANY Anti-Catholic bigot douchebags during his state visit, basically all US American Protestants who believe that the Pontiff is some dangerous (Anti-Christian) warlock, or Anti-Christ himself — including Ms Kim Davis…

Your statement is closer to the clarification I was seeking in my earlier post. More specifically, it seems that Davis is part of a Protestant Christian sect that does not recognize the authority of the Pope. Maybe I didn’t choose the correct terms to convey that concept, but I was hoping to better understand why Davis (and her handlers) would seek a meeting with the leader of a rival religious organization.

I am not certain Davis’ church is Protestant; however, that seems a reasonable conclusion. It is my impression that most Apostolic Christians in the US subscribe to a general perspective that resembles Methodist traditions. I did find a Catholic Apostolic Church in North America, but its website describes the organization as:

… a small body of Catholic parishes that welcomes all, regardless of race, national origin, marital status, sexual orientation, political beliefs, or economic status. [Link]

So my question involves the motivation for Davis (and/or her handlers) to seek an audience with the Pope. Was she trying to manipulate the meeting to somehow force him to publicly support her position on the issue – or was she seeking his spiritual guidance/blessing to help her navigate the persecution she is facing for “trying to do what is right?”

The latter case seems less plausible to me, in light of her religious affiliation and its apparent diversion from Catholic Doctrine.

[The Pope] meets with a high profile anti-gay bigot, but refuses to engage with gay Catholics:

http://www.glaad.org/blog/wake-secret-kim-davis-meeting-glaad-renews-call-pope-meet-lgbt-catholic

I think that link may have changed. Is this the article to which you were referring?

In wake of secret Kim Davis meeting, GLAAD renews call on Pope to meet with LGBT Catholics​

 

[kallipolis]

It seems reasonable for the Pope to meet with Mrs. Davis – from his position of leadership or that of the Catholic Church. Perhaps the meeting was ill conceived from the perspective of progressive elements within the Vatican or from some rank and file Catholics. Much of the discussion in this thread centers upon the question of whether the Pope (or his schedulers) should have granted Mrs. Davis a meeting.

No doubt in my mind that Francis was ill advised to meet with Kim Davis. Progressives in The Vatican have already voiced their opinions....but, free will ensures that each human person has a fundamental right to make their own choices....

The real issue is what Francis said to Kim Davies in that meeting.

The Huffington Post's amusingly contrived transcript of that meeting is worth reading for its entertainment value, and because it speaks to the inaneness of Kim Davis' defence of her actions. Here:http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...b0dd85030a555d

 

[kallipolis]

Here's the transcript of the official statement from the Vatican responding to the various insinuations on that meeting between Francis, and Kim Davis:

http://press.vatican.va/content/salastampa/it/bollettino/pubblico/2015/10/02/0749/01616.html

I quote. :

The brief meeting between Mrs. Kim Davis and Pope Francis at the Apostolic Nunciature in Washington, DC has continued to provoke comments and discussion. In order to contribute to an objective understanding of what transpired I am able to clarify the following points:

Pope Francis met with several dozen persons who had been invited by the Nunciature to greet him as he prepared to leave Washington for New York City. Such brief greetings occur on all papal visits and are due to the Pope’s characteristic kindness and availability. The only real audience granted by the Pope at the Nunciature was with one of his former students and his family.

The Pope did not enter into the details of the situation of Mrs. Davis and his meeting with her should not be considered a form of support of her position in all of its particular and complex aspects.

The highlighting is mine.

 

[kallipolis]

It appears that Kim Davis and her attention seeking, and publicity seeking team of promoters have overstepped their propaganda.

One hopes that this will be the end of hearing from this puppet of the right wing conservative morons who have put her up to posing as a hero and alleged martyr for her faith.

 

[Spensed]

The issue being discussed here is the right of Francis, to meet with whom he likes...

Your right to be an anti religion bigot, by posting your predictable rants here is not being disputed...

The issue was never whether the Pope can meet with whoever he wants. It is whether he should have met with such a polarizing figure in the context of this state visit and, thereby, appear to endorse her lawlessness and antipathy against gays. Imagine if he had used the papal visit to meet in secret with the Imperial Wizard of the Ku Klux Klan.

Even if you are blind to the problem, it now seems clear that the Vatican regrets the negative impact of the meeting, which is, at least, a step in the right direction.

 

[kallipolis]

The issue was never whether the Pope can meet with whoever he wants. It is whether he should have met with such a polarizing figure in the context of this state visit and, thereby, appear to endorse her lawlessness and antipathy against gays. Imagine if he had used the papal visit to meet in secret with the Imperial Wizard of the Ku Klux Klan.

Even if you are blind to the problem, it now seems clear that the Vatican regrets the negative impact of the meeting, which is, at least, a step in the right direction.

Of course it is....you want to be able to decide who the pope meets, or does not meet...that's been the focus of your campaign here.