The Secret-Gender Baby

[BlondeCanadian]

Blackbeltninja did you read the article in it entirety? Because the parents acknowledged the potential for bullying.. They said that likely everyone in their life is bullied at some point or another... Those who are bullied because they are not able to confirm to the social norms that their parents enforced will likely have a harder time dealing with it and will be less likely to stand up when others are bullied then their children will be... Doesnt exactly seem illogical... and seems a valid point....

And progress is never easy are you suggesting that we stop trying for change so as not to be bullied?

 

[fetaby]

And if it has the misfortune of going to school with the kind of shitty misanthropic sociopaths I went to school with, this will carry on for many, many years as "haha, that's the boy who came to school in a dress!" right up through high school and beyond.

The kid is a girl. The kid is not you.

 

[TofuEater]

It's a dangerous and irresponsible experiment.

Gender identity may be abused by dominant forces in societies, but removing them altogether may be fundamentally damaging to the psyche of a developing mind. We may romanticize the ideal, imagining a world without expectations and impositions, but there are certain anchorings that are a stabilizing force for the individual.
I speak from being raised half of my childhood in a household that deliberately sought to be countercultural in many ways. It was not our choice as children, and it was not my choice as an individual. It felt oppressive in trying to make me into what my mother wanted for herself. I have since seen the effects in the second generation removed, and it still is a detrimental influence.

After alll the ranting we hear about indoctrination of children being wrong, and this sort of thing gets a walk. In my opinion, THIS is dangerous indoctrination of a standard of choice that is false and unsustainable in society.

Simple lunacy. What's to stop some animal rights extremist from disguising the species of their child. Why not raise the kid as a horse, or a dog, and let it find its own species role?

+100000000000

I think people are confusing "sex" and "gender." It makes no sense to keep this child's sex a secret. You're either born a boy or a girl (barring hermaphrodites), there is no ifs, and, or but about that.

Now, if we are talking in terms of gender and gender roles, which is a social construction, then by all means, they can do what they want. That wouldn't be so much of an issue at all.

But sex? I don't see why they would do this at all. It just makes left winging people look crazy, even if we all don't agree...I blame michael moore

 

[fetaby]

I think people are confusing "sex" and "gender." It makes no sense to keep this child's sex a secret. You're either born a boy or a girl (barring hermaphrodites), there is no ifs, and, or but about that.

If by people you mean nearly every person in the world, then yes.

What you end up with between your legs is the basis of relation to the world even before you exit the womb. People use it to direct thought and intentions and for what reason?

Gender identity may be abused by dominant forces in societies, but

So you give abuse a pass? Ok.

 

[blackbeltninja]

The kid is a girl. The kid is not you.

And I wasn't bullied. Ribbed occasionally, perhaps, but nothing serious and nothing long-lasting (as in for more than a minute) which wasn't just a bit of clowning around. But others were.

Blackbeltninja did you read the article in it entirety? Because the parents acknowledged the potential for bullying.. They said that likely everyone in their life is bullied at some point or another... Those who are bullied because they are not able to confirm to the social norms that their parents enforced will likely have a harder time dealing with it and will be less likely to stand up when others are bullied then their children will be... Doesnt exactly seem illogical... and seems a valid point....

And progress is never easy are you suggesting that we stop trying for change so as not to be bullied?

I'm suggesting that when this happens the first time the parents aren't there to step in, the kid is going to have a crisis of confidence which could really bugger everything up. I don't think it's fair to try this sort of thing out on a kid who is an unwitting participant. When s/he is older and decides for him/herself that s/he wants to try something different, sure - go for it. Know that their are risks, understand what they are, weigh up the pros and cons, and take a leap if you still want to. Doing this to a clueless kid is a fucking stupid idea.

I'd be interested - how many of us in here wish our parents had tried this on us? I'm happy to be a guy; always have been. I might have avoided pink like the plague as a little boy, but I bought tons of day-glo pink stuff in the late 80s when I was 12, knowing I might get some stick for it but wanting to do it anyway. But that was MY decision, not something my mother foisted on me to see what would happen.

I fail to understand why they can't apply the social norms and see how the kid reacts, then back off if necessary. Give the kid an idea of what is normal and accepted - we're all told not to touch our winkies and pick our noses in public; not socially acceptable - and if all hell breaks loose or they can see that the kid is uncomfortable, then tweak your approach a little. I don't see the point of avoiding it entirely - to me, that seems like a badly thought-out way to try to do this.

-d-

 

[fetaby]

And I wasn't bullied. Ribbed occasionally, perhaps, but nothing serious and nothing long-lasting (as in for more than a minute) which wasn't just a bit of clowning around. But others were.



I'm suggesting that when this happens the first time the parents aren't there to step in, the kid is going to have a crisis of confidence which could really bugger everything up. I don't think it's fair to try this sort of thing out on a kid who is an unwitting participant.

Just a couple things...

But others were.

And how did you deal with that? Did you try to protect these kids? Or did you allow them to be bullied?

I'm suggesting that when this happens the first time the parents aren't there to step in, the kid is going to have a crisis of confidence which could really bugger everything up.

The only way this will happen is if the child believes it is wrong. That it is wrong to do any of the things it has been allowed to do. So again, where is the harm?

Is it caused by something the child has/could do? Or is it brought to the kid by everyone else?

The basic function of clothing is to provide protection to our bodies. That color of the cloth is immaterial. Wearing a piece of pink cloth (despite the shape) serves that function. What the world thinks about pink doesn't change the fact that it still serves it's function.

I don't think it's fair to try this sort of thing out on a kid who is an unwitting participant.

Life's not fair. For a parent to proceed under that delusion is a far bigger crime...

 

[blackbeltninja]

And how did you deal with that? Did you try to protect these kids? Or did you allow them to be bullied?

It's not something I witnessed; more something I heard about. One of my oldest mates is our old headmaster's son, so we got to hear about a lot of behind the scenes stuff from him which most people were not privy to

The only way this will happen is if the child believes it is wrong. That it is wrong to do any of the things it has been allowed to do. So again, where is the harm?

How sure about this part are you? In my experience, kids are quite impressionable and are fairly easy to convince about almost anything. You tell a kid that if s/he misbehaves the police will come and lock them up in gaol for the night and the younger ones will believe you and be terrified (I watched my aunt do this to my cousins more than once; and in my video store days I had a few parents use that line on their misbehaving kids). Some bigger kid tells this kid it's wrong and I reckon this kid will believe it.

Is it caused by something the child has/could do? Or is it brought to the kid by everyone else?

Since no man (or anyone) is an island, the everyone else factor is always going to be an issue.

Life's not fair. For a parent to proceed under that delusion is a far bigger crime...

Of course nothing in life is fair. This is precisely why I think the parents are cocking this up by not giving the child some proper preparation for what is out there. I'm concerned that parents, at least one of whom is actually officially involved in education of children, can be this naive.

What next - "sure, talk to strangers. What could possibly go wrong?"

-d-

 

[hgmdedfgh]

all for the sake of being radical new ageists who have an obnoxious desire to step outside of the box of conformity.

basically all i have to say on this matter. im guessing they dont have a problem with all the money their getting from their story.

its rly unlikely that the child would even care if the parents didnt push all this pressure for the child to act like the other gender to sell a story

 

[Titanic]

Right, let's get one thing straight, the parents are choosing not to disclose the sex of their child (i.e. penis / vagina), not the gender (lives as a boy or girl). Babies under the age of one essentially don't have a "gender" in the manner that we speak.

Sex is biological. Gender role is up the individual to decide.

Making a choice not to limit who your child can be (outside of actions that may be harmful to him/her or others) is a beautiful choice to make.

That's just the problem, you are limiting who the child can be. This child is the social experiment, the guinea pig, the freak. It's not nice, but it's true, and I'm man enough to admit that if I knew someone who actively hid any outward signs of their sex then I'd feel a bit uncomfortable. Certainly I would think differently of them than the other guys and girls I meet on the street. And that's a limit in my eyes, buddy.

I agree, it would be nice to let boys play with girls' toys without anyone caring, or vice versa. So why can't we just do that rather than go to this extreme?

 

[fetaby]

It's not something I witnessed; more something I heard about. One of my oldest mates is our old headmaster's son, so we got to hear about a lot of behind the scenes stuff from him which most people were not privy to

So it's second hand anecdotal? Fine, assume it was happening in front of you. How would you react?

How sure about this part are you? In my experience, kids are quite impressionable and are fairly easy to convince about almost anything. You tell a kid that if s/he misbehaves the police will come and lock them up in gaol for the night and the younger ones will believe you and be terrified (I watched my aunt do this to my cousins more than once; and in my video store days I had a few parents use that line on their misbehaving kids). Some bigger kid tells this kid it's wrong and I reckon this kid will believe it.

About as sure as you are that the kid is going to crack the moment it's parents turn their back. Case in point, being gay. Their is nothing wrong with it, society says we shouldn't be it, but we are. Yeah, we've had to fight through a bunch of bullshit, or are currently fighting , but we do so. No one ever said life was going to be easy. But imagine if you can, that a support system in the form of two loving parents was there from the beginning... And besides, you should have introduced your aunt to Pavlov. The power of positive reinforcement is proven just as much as negative. If a kid experiences joy in an object or activity, they will pursue it again and again. Which is really why I'm looking for someone to tell me where the harm is.

Since no man (or anyone) is an island, the everyone else factor is always going to be an issue.

So you are saying there is no internal harm from a child participating in activities associated with it's opposite gender.

Of course nothing in life is fair. This is precisely why I think the parents are cocking this up by not giving the child some proper preparation for what is out there. I'm concerned that parents, at least one of whom is actually officially involved in education of children, can be this naive.

What next - "sure, talk to strangers. What could possibly go wrong?"

-d-

Then why are you talking to me? OR anyone here? People are strange. By the by, did you know that the majority of child sexual abuse if performed by family members and not strangers? Anyway....

So nothing is fair in life, but showing the kid how life isn't fair is cocking it up? Ok.

I agree, it would be nice to let boys play with girls' toys without anyone caring, or vice versa. So why can't we just do that rather than go to this extreme?

You've relegated an entire sex to a footnote, and engendered inanimate objects is why...

 

[Sha-Rok]

Pssh! Priceless! A bunch of gay guys talking down on parents who are allowing their child to decide their own gender path. I can't believe someone stated they are going to raise a "freak of nature." What the fuck does that make you?

 

[pat grimshaw]

…I'm almost certain amongst the mob of people screaming "freak," …

One person here said 'freak of nature' which is a metaphor or idiom. The Urban Dictionary says it is 'a phrase used to describe someone in either a good or bad way'

 

[Paws]

I'm far more worried about the stupid name - "Storm".

 

[blackbeltninja]

So it's second-hand anecdotal? Fine, assume it was happening in front of you. How would you react?

I can't imagine my old principal would tell us lies years after the fact. He's not saying he swooped in to save the day like Superman; just telling us some of the stuff we didn't know about our alma mater. What would be the purpose of his embellishing the details? All he's saying is that were some kids who were bullied. And I'm pretty sure that some of the kids I was at school with were bullies when they were younger.

Anyway, I was drawing cash from an ATM once when I witnessed a guy climb into his girlfriend. When a security guard (who also saw it) and I pulled him off her and he stormed off, she ran after him. That's all I can tell you.

And besides, you should have introduced your aunt to Pavlov. The power of positive reinforcement is proven just as much as negative. If a kid experiences joy in an object or activity, they will pursue it again and again. Which is really why I'm looking for someone to tell me where the harm is.

So if they experience joy in wreaking havoc and/or bullying another kid, then...?

So you are saying there is no internal harm from a child participating in activities associated with it's opposite gender.

Yup. Provided it knows that it might not perceived as okay by everyone. I just want the kid to have a heads-up.

Then why are you talking to me? OR anyone here?

Really? You're really asking me this question, as a 34-year-old well-educated male who stands 6 foot 3 and teaches karate on the side?

Okay, I'll answer it: because I'm old enough to make my own decisions and deal with the consequences, and because I can mostly take care of myself.

I seriously cannot believe you even threw this into your argument.

People are strange. By the by, did you know that the majority of child sexual abuse if performed by family members and not strangers? Anyway...

I did know that. And if it were true in 100% of cases and no kid was ever molested by a stranger, you might be making a good point. But it's not true, is it?

So nothing is fair in life, but not showing the kid how life isn't fair is cocking it up.

Well, let me correct your misquote of what I said by inserting the important part of it in bold. I'd be pretty pissed if my parents told me life was all kitties and rainbows and it turned out that it was more rabid feral cats and hurricanes and they knew that already.

-d-

 

[pat grimshaw]

I'm far more worried about the stupid name - "Storm".

'The Calgary Herald' is assuming that Storm is a boy based on the photos.

Those cloying sites which suggest names for babies say the name 'Storm' is usually chosen for boys.

The father is a schoolteacher; the mother doesn't work and has not taken the father's name. I wonder if they chose the name in honour of the English writer— who was christened as Margaret but used the pen name Storm Jameson (1891–1986).

 

[Titanic]

Pssh! Priceless! A bunch of gay guys talking down on parents who are allowing their child to decide their own gender path. I can't believe someone stated they are going to raise a "freak of nature." What the fuck does that make you?

I'm not sure whether it was me you're referring to, but I don't think the child is a freak of nature - on the contrary, it's a freak of society, and I mean that in its purest, literal sense. Storm is bucking all trends and being different - well, its parents are anyway. And I can anticipate your reaction to that, that it's a good thing to be unique and different, but the fundamental difference here is that the child cannot choose to be different, it's having difference chosen for it, just as is a child born with a physical or mental defect. And I'm not saying it's any less of a person for not having a social sex, I just feel that it would prefer to be given the choice in the matter.

I've lost my train of thought on this now, I'm sort of failing to multi-task while I type this, but I'm sure you get my direction.

Um...sounds to me that people like you would be limiting this child, not the parents. You're not "man" by calling someone a freak because they don't meet your gender role requirements. You're bigoted.

I'm honest, that's what I am Naughty. And you're missing the point entirely. As I pointed out, sex and gender are by definition two fundamentally different things that you're getting confused about. The parents are not withholding the child's gender, they are withholding its sex. And you can act however you want around me, you can be camp or butch or bubbly, but I don't honestly think I'd feel as comfortable with someone if I don't know their sex. That's just how it is with me. I just happen to believe it's the same with a lot of other people.

 

[sixthson]

It is I they are referring to who made the freak of nature remark and I am the gay parent Naughty alludes to in his post, as if he didn't know. For whatever reason, he seems to find fault with everything I post. That is his privilege.
I state my opinion and leave it at that. I am fine with people disagreeing with me, but to continue to bring it up, post after post, especially when their friends join in the mix, only proves they have nothing new to say on a subject that has already gone way off-topic.

 

[fetaby]

What would be the purpose of his embellishing the details?

IDK, but your Aunt might...

And if it were true in 100% of cases and no kid was ever molested by a stranger, you might be making a good point. But it's not true, is it?

I'd say my point was better than yours in which all strangers molest every kid, when statistically it's not strangers doing the molesting anyway.

This is getting boring.

Provided it knows that it might not perceived as okay by everyone. I just want the kid to have a heads-up.

And thank you. Finally you've isolated the harm, an external source of suppression. How the parents go about relaying this message isn't our business. Through either positive or negative reinforcement, the child will learn this.

So if they experience joy in wreaking havoc and/or bullying another kid, then...?

Then they'll be here at JUB in about 20 years carrying on the same tired arguments for gender norms...

 

[fetaby]

It is I they are referring to who made the freak of nature remark and I am the gay parent Naughty alludes to in his post, as if he didn't know. For whatever reason, he seems to find fault with everything I post. That is his privilege.
I state my opinion and leave it at that. I am fine with people disagreeing with me, but to continue to bring it up, post after post, especially when their friends join in the mix, only proves they have nothing new to say on a subject that has already gone way off-topic.

If this were the case, this post wouldn't be here.

only proves they have nothing new to say on a subject that has already gone way off-topic.

Actually, your freak of nature post and the ensuing conversations stemming from it is exactly ON-topic. Your "opinion" is the reason these parents are doing what they are doing.

 

[sixthson]

Your "opinion" is the reason these parents are doing what they are doing.

I had no idea these parents knew me. I suppose this is where you tell me they may not know me personally, but they know my "type". Sweet.