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The stereotypical Gay Man

rather than focusing on convincing everyone to be okay with a stereotype of their group as 'effeminate'.... shouldn't we be more focused on convincing everyone that being gay is a very diverse thing, not covered by any one image?

In people's haste to validate 'the stereotype' as something we shouldn't be 'ashamed of', it feels an awful lot like people slide into saying "well if you don't fit it just deal with it." Saying it's okay to be effeminate (or any other stereotypic trait) should be separate from telling people to be okay with being stereotyped. In this thread it's a little too close to equated as one and the same.

I AM doing that. By being gay, by being out, by being visible, and by being me. And maybe that's what you're driving it. To me, the danger comes from gay guys being all too willing to draw distinctions between themselves and the effeminate gay guys. "I'M not like THAT." As I said earlier, my goal isn't to draw lines between the stereotype and myself. It's to draw circles around the stereotype and myself. Instead of saying "Don't lump me in with them", I say "Yes. Lump me in with them."

Lex
 
I AM doing that. By being gay, by being out, by being visible, and by being me. And maybe that's what you're driving it. To me, the danger comes from gay guys being all too willing to draw distinctions between themselves and the effeminate gay guys. "I'M not like THAT." As I said earlier, my goal isn't to draw lines between the stereotype and myself. It's to draw circles around the stereotype and myself. Instead of saying "Don't lump me in with them", I say "Yes. Lump me in with them."

Lex

Most stereotypes are defined by people outside the group itself.

Do all women feel compelled to say they identify with ultra feminine women? With masculine women? Or do they choose their own identity within the gamut?
Many people object to being placed in categories that they do not identify with. Think about elderly people who rebel against old age stereotypes.
You can and should accept diversity, but you're allowed to have your own identity within a group too.
 
^ I guess really boiled down, my point would be this, (oops this is @thatgirl's post)

rather than focusing on convincing everyone to be okay with a stereotype of their group as 'effeminate'.... shouldn't we be more focused on convincing everyone that being gay is a very diverse thing, not covered by any one image?

In people's haste to validate 'the stereotype' as something we shouldn't be 'ashamed of', it feels an awful lot like people slide into saying "well if you don't fit it just deal with it." Saying it's okay to be effeminate (or any other stereotypic trait) should be separate from telling people to be okay with being stereotyped. In this thread it's a little too close to equated as one and the same.

I am sorry, but the "if you don't fit it just deal with it" part is in your head. Nobody here is saying that. Convincing everyone to be okay with the "effeminate" stereotype is beneficial to the gay community because it puts an end to an existing syndrome of ostracizing a big (I'd say perhaps even major) part of it. And this in no way contradicts with convincing "everyone" that being gay is a very diverse thing, not covered by any one image. I mean, if you see a masculine guy and, upon learning he is gay, you decide to think he is feminine, that kind of makes you a moron, no?

And yes, generally speaking, you should not care if you are stereotyped. The people whose opinion matter would either not stereotype you, or learn quickly. The others are whatever. It doesn't mean you're "ok" with being stereotyped, just that it is not a big enough deal for you to create things like this defensive mechanism you are showing in the first part of your post. I mean, seriously, masculine men feel persecuted and excluded in the gay community? Come on!
 
I am sorry, but the "if you don't fit it just deal with it" part is in your head. Nobody here is saying that. Convincing everyone to be okay with the "effeminate" stereotype is beneficial to the gay community because it puts an end to an existing syndrome of ostracizing a big (I'd say perhaps even major) part of it. And this in no way contradicts with convincing "everyone" that being gay is a very diverse thing, not covered by any one image. I mean, if you see a masculine guy and, upon learning he is gay, you decide to think he is feminine, that kind of makes you a moron, no?

And yes, generally speaking, you should not care if you are stereotyped. The people whose opinion matter would either not stereotype you, or learn quickly. The others are whatever. It doesn't mean you're "ok" with being stereotyped, just that it is not a big enough deal for you to create things like this defensive mechanism you are showing in the first part of your post. I mean, seriously, masculine men feel persecuted and excluded in the gay community? Come on!

Well I do have to say... this is the part where my back goes up a little bit.

Yeah, it was said in this thread, in more or less words, by 3 people at least. I'm not making things up out of thin air.

And yes, generally speaking, you should not care if you are stereotyped

Considering the very very (understandably) volatile reaction some posters have demonstrated, in this very thread, to negative stereotypes or imagery surrounding shamefulness or anything else surrounding femininity or "stereotypically gay qualities", I think you should examine how much you are working from this rule of "don't care if you're stereotyped" consistently vs. applying it for the positions you agree with and not the ones you don't.

Certainly none of you demonstrated an "I don't care about stereotypes" attitude when you saw str8top's post.
 
No, it's an inability to consider alternative viewpoints that you've shown. You show little desire to listen.

Back on topic, is there anything wrong with having masculine and feminine gay role models, instead of a single gay stereotype in mainstream media?

Using personal attacks to cover for a lack of proof and inability to find quotes - THAT's one gay stereotype for sure, as far as JUB is concerned...


And, um, the mainstream media is full of masculine gay role models:

Neil Patrick Harris
Ian McKellen
Mat Bomer
Sean Maher

And that's just off the top of my head, and just actors.
 
Using personal attacks to cover for a lack of proof and inability to find quotes - THAT's one gay stereotype for sure, as far as JUB is concerned...

And, um, the mainstream media is full of masculine gay role models:

Neil Patrick Harris
Ian McKellen
Mat Bomer
Sean Maher

And that's just off the top of my head, and just actors.

It's a commentary on your debating style. If you want to take that personally, then maybe it's because it's relevant.
A stereotype, as above, is generally defined by people outside the group. There's no obligation to sign up to a description of yourself that's been applied by outsiders.
 
Well I do have to say... this is the part where my back goes up a little bit.

Yeah, it was said in this thread, in more or less words, by 3 people at least. I'm not making things up out of thin air.

My problem with this claim is that it is a matter of interpretation. Sure, if you interpret "you should not have negative response to being stereotyped if the stereotype doesn't fit" as "if you don't fit it just deal with it", then I guess that IS what people have said, but I don't mean it in the negative connotation that the second quote implies, and I don't think anyone has. It's not a "tough luck" kind of situation at all. It's more a matter of "you should learn to not be bother, and ask yourself why being thought of as feminine is so disgusting for you". Refer to Lexington's last post. Drawing lines hurts us, and it doesn't really do much for the people drawing them either.

Considering the very very (understandably) volatile reaction some posters have demonstrated, in this very thread, to negative stereotypes or imagery surrounding shamefulness or anything else surrounding femininity or "stereotypically gay qualities", I think you should examine how much you are working from this rule of "don't care if you're stereotyped" consistently vs. applying it for the positions you agree with and not the ones you don't.

Certainly none of you demonstrated an "I don't care about stereotypes" attitude when you saw str8top's post.

Um, because he is supposedly gay (ah, sorry - "bisexual" *snicker*) and should know better than to use the offensive language he did? I definitely have different standards for communication with straight people than the ones I have with other homosexuals. Also, I never said we shouldn't be offended if someone is stereotyping us in order to insult us, or using degrading language. But I still don't feel that "enough product to catch flies" applies to me, even if the language bothers me, nor do I feel the urge to rail against being put in that pile just because I'm gay. And none of the examples YOU gave of "bad" stereotyping were phrased as insults the way washisface's were.
 
As far as gay stereotypes go, do you think being feminine should be on the top of people's list of gay of stereotypes that need to be actively debunked and combated? Is it as pernicious or threatening as the stereotypes that portray homosexuality as something perverse and dangerous? Should it be a priority? I'm just wondering.

And yes, across the board, stereotyping people is unfair and the diversity among gay men should be acknowledged and embraced. Hopefully, with more diverse representations of gay men in mainstream media, this will begin to change so more people will realize that gay men come in a wide variety like straight men.

But to me it seems like some masculine gay men would rather not have to deal with being associated in any way, shape or form with feminine gay men. This doesn't really seem like an inclusive approach to me and is counterproductive when it comes to, like you said, "convincing everyone that being gay is a very diverse thing." Although, to be fair, some feminine gay guys do react to this perceived rejection by implying that the masculine gay men are putting on an act to seem more like straight guys. It is a bit of a clusterfuck, I agree.

No. I just brought it up as the most common. I'm far more offended when people ask me about the "promiscuity" of gay men. Most of it's just annoyances, like when people think I'm into fashion or certain shows or certain music that utterly don't fit my personality or interests but they assume "oh well since you're gay I thought..." So these aren't things I'm mortally offended by. But I do think there's a legitimate discussion about the break between how people reacted to str8top vs. how they are telling others to react about other stereotypes if they would count themselves as included in those ones. That's all I'm driving at really.

Basically, I think it's a mistake to say "these stereotypes are bad, we should all militantly oppose these ones.... but these good ones, use these. Embrace them." I don't think that's the right way to go about a topic of generalization and stereotyping. Many people would consider a good fashion sense or knowing a lot about clothes to be a good thing. That doesn't change that it's a stereotype.

I'll give another example. "Asians are stingy." "Asians are all good at math."

Few people would have a negative reaction to the 2nd one. Far fewer than to the first one anyway. But the thought process is the same in either case, lumping and erasing individuality.
 
It's a commentary on your debating style. If you want to take that personally, then maybe it's because it's relevant.
A stereotype, as above, is generally defined by people outside the group. There's no obligation to sign up to a description of yourself that's been applied by outsiders.

Keep telling yourself that. I am not sure you even know which particular stereotypes you're even referring to anymore...

And as for the rest, I don't think someone who throws around accusations and then starts making personal "comments" when he is asked for proof, has any ground to stand on to comment on others' debating styles. You don't have a saddle for that high horse, I fear.
 
No. I just brought it up as the most common. I'm far more offended when people ask me about the "promiscuity" of gay men. Most of it's just annoyances, like when people think I'm into fashion or certain shows or certain music that utterly don't fit my personality or interests but they assume "oh well since you're gay I thought..." So these aren't things I'm mortally offended by. But I do think there's a legitimate discussion about the break between how people reacted to str8top vs. how they are telling others to react about other stereotypes if they would count themselves as included in those ones. That's all I'm driving at really.

Basically, I think it's a mistake to say "these stereotypes are bad, we should all militantly oppose these ones.... but these good ones, use these. Embrace them." I don't think that's the right way to go about a topic of generalization and stereotyping. Many people would consider a good fashion sense or knowing a lot about clothes to be a good thing. That doesn't change that it's a stereotype.

I'll give another example. "Asians are stingy." "Asians are all good at math."

Few people would have a negative reaction to the 2nd one. Far fewer than to the first one anyway. But the thought process is the same in either case, lumping and erasing individuality.

Well, let's be honest though - gay men ARE more promiscuous than straight men. Or rather, gay culture promotes promiscuity. So while that stereotype isn't flattering (though why shouldn't it be? Because good Christian boys only have sex with one person for forever and ever?), it most certainly is true.

In the end, this conversation is now stuck. Whatever I say, you can just respond "well, it bothers me when I'm stereotyped" and there's nothing I can say to change that. It doesn't bother ME. I like debunking other people's perceptions of me. I enjoy it. I'm not offended by them because stereotypes are shortcuts to figuring out where people stand in the giant tapestry of society and culture. I would go as far as to say we NEED stereotypes. They wouldn't exist if they didn't work well. They are the first step, and just because many people are stuck at that first step, unwilling or unable to make the next ones, isn't really a reason for me personally to be offended. I just tell them that no, I don't care about fashion so much, although yes, ermergerd, I just luuuuuuurv musical theater!
 
Well, let's be honest though - gay men ARE more promiscuous than straight men. Or rather, gay culture promotes promiscuity. So while that stereotype isn't flattering (though why shouldn't it be? Because good Christian boys only have sex with one person for forever and ever?), it most certainly is true.

In the end, this conversation is now stuck. Whatever I say, you can just respond "well, it bothers me when I'm stereotyped" and there's nothing I can say to change that. It doesn't bother ME. I like debunking other people's perceptions of me. I enjoy it. I'm not offended by them because stereotypes are shortcuts to figuring out where people stand in the giant tapestry of society and culture. I would go as far as to say we NEED stereotypes. They wouldn't exist if they didn't work well. They are the first step, and just because many people are stuck at that first step, unwilling or unable to make the next ones, isn't really a reason for me personally to be offended. I just tell them that no, I don't care about fashion so much, although yes, ermergerd, I just luuuuuuurv musical theater!

It's fine if it doesn't bother you. I'm not trying to tell you to be bothered by something you aren't bothered by. But I wouldn't ask you not to be offended by str8top's post, that's all I would expect in return.

And do you really think gay men are more promiscuous? Serious question. I have never looked at stats or numbers or research to know.
 
I guess I would suggested "getting over it". At least to some degree. Because although you can do some stuff to contradict it, it is going to keep happening. And it's best to just roll with it if you can. One guy online "I hear Lex will only work with people who let him suck their cocks." My response was "If that's true, I have to get to work on scheduling - there's about four hundred guys that owe me blowjobs." Everybody laughed, stereotype debunked, life goes on.

And I was less offended by the substance of str8's post than by its tone. And I'm assuming I'm not the only one.

Most figures I've seen show gay men are more promiscuous than straights. I don't see any problem with that datum. My usual response to it (here in America) is "Well, why shouldn't we be? It's not like we can get married or anything..."

Lex
 
Keep telling yourself that. I am not sure you even know which particular stereotypes you're even referring to anymore...

And as for the rest, I don't think someone who throws around accusations and then starts making personal "comments" when he is asked for proof, has any ground to stand on to comment on others' debating styles. You don't have a saddle for that high horse, I fear.

You're trying to bully people into agreeing with you, and if anyone calls you on your behavior you claim victim status. Try listening for once. It may be more effective.
 
really smart man got awsum nose on face size penis wot a 12 inch
& here go ya new baba &
^ but it no got awsum nose size a penis wot 12 inch ^
& no make da scripts luv just catch da babas spitin out &
" here go this land think a really smart man make googoo noiseys wen fartin "
& ooh &

@ Hi welcomes a land a fartin googoos @
& ooh &

or dat planet?


anyway

thankyou
 
It's fine if it doesn't bother you. I'm not trying to tell you to be bothered by something you aren't bothered by. But I wouldn't ask you not to be offended by str8top's post, that's all I would expect in return.

Fuck, my laptop crashed while responding... Ugh, yay memory.

Well, the comparison is simply incorrect. When a gay man is using offensive homophobic oversimplified ways to describe other gay men, we have a problem, and it's not even a problem of stereotypes, I'd say.

Don't get me wrong. Stereotyping might not bother me, but it tells me something of the people doing it. If you can't get beyond "Omg, you're gay, we should be besties and shop for clothes!", I likely won't be having anything to do with you. But not because I have a problem with stereotypes, simply because I would think you're a fucking idiot who can't think for yourself. Like I already said, stereotypes are shortcuts. They are not offensive on their own, though they could easily become so with the thought put behind them. For example, if I were to say that gay men were feminine, you'd know I don't mean it in a negative way at all.

There is another thing, which I talked about earlier, but nobody addressed it, so I assume it got lost. We do not own our choices, opinions, tastes, even our behavior. They have been premeditated for us by complex combinations of environment, our past and our subconscious mind. Sometimes it is possible to trace a thought or a reaction back to its source components - the childhood scene by the camp fire when your dad sang you that one awesome song is obviously the reason why you love that one awesome song. But most are not as simple as that, and often the reasons are subconscious. My position is that when we talk about aspects of homosexuality - WE, who are homosexuals, grown up in a time and in places where homosexuality, though more accepted than before, is still largely frowned upon - our circumstances growing up and dealing with our homosexuality play a MAJOR role in forming our opinions and responses on the subject.

You are of course free to disagree, but I think it would be a bold claim to say that it is entirely untrue. And if so, I would ask you to try and trace your problem with the gay stereotypes - as they are related to you - to its source, and tell me what it is, if not issues related to you being gay.

And do you really think gay men are more promiscuous? Serious question. I have never looked at stats or numbers or research to know.

Offtopic I guess, but who cares.

I believe MEN - straight and gay alike - are genetically designed to be sexually promiscuous. To spread our seed as far and wide as we can, so to speak :p The same way as women are the opposite - designed to screen all potential partners until they find the perfect one. Which is a good explanation to why lesbians are so territorial and why they mate seemingly for life. They are the werewolves to our decadent vampires :p

But of course, it goes beyond that for gay men. First of all, both partners are male, so the "screening process" that's supposed to keep our horniness in check, is not there. Second, gay culture is often very shallow and oversexualized. The bar scene is all about perfect bodies, sex jokes and easy sex. So it feeds into the rest.

That shouldn't be mistaken with romantic feelings though. I believe all human beings gravitate toward emotional monogamy. It is the most stable way to invest emotionally, and the least complicated. And I think the biggest percentage of gay drama - as well as the reason for why so many gay relationships are so short-lived - is due to the dissonance between emotional monogamy and sexual polygamy.
 
You're trying to bully people into agreeing with you, and if anyone calls you on your behavior you claim victim status. Try listening for once. It may be more effective.

I will gladly do that, once you offer anything to listen to, rather than rant at me when I asked you to prove a claim you made.

Should I assume you aren't going to do that btw?
 
ans they make a stew but neva figa wot put in it
* put it in *
$ nah take it out $
% ooh this a nice %
* oops ma shoe *
$ ooh dunno it taste quites a nice $

1st world education born

haaaaaaaa
 
I will gladly do that, once you offer anything to listen to, rather than rant at me when I asked you to prove a claim you made.

Should I assume you aren't going to do that btw?

I'm done. .
 
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