Theory of being gay

[Benvolio]

Of course, the problem is, children are not raised in a vacuum. They learn behaviors, and speech is one behavior that is only learned, not innate. Left in the absence of an example, no child speaks on his own, but only babbles.

The accent that we speak is always learned. We simply do not begin speaking with a Cockney or Aussie accent by choice. We mimic.

And I've yet to hear a child have the gay voice before it became a trope on television, cinema, and internet. As a child, I never encountered a child who evinced a lisp or lilt until adolescence. It would probably be short work for a linguist to establish research controls and prove the point, but to what end? Again, society isn't going to reward such research and gay men themselves are prejudiced on the subject.

It isn't troubling to consider that there may be multiple origins for homosexuality, but it is damaging to suggest that gays are inherently effeminate. Some are feminine, and some are not. The club is not exclusive.

Read my -osts again. I did not say gays are feminine; many, I think most, are not. But some seem clearly to be inherently. i.e. physically, feminine and would like not to be.

 

[gsdx]

Read my -osts again. I did not say gays are feminine; many, I think most, are not. But some seem clearly to be inherently. i.e. physically, feminine and would like not to be.

Yes, they are, but that's more of a hormone thing and not a sexual thing. There are many straight men who look feminine. It can be fixed with hormonal treatment, but, in all likelihood, would have to continue throughout their lives.

Acting gay (as in the gay stereotype) is just that: acting. It is not real. It is an intentional, developed behaviour.

 

[peeonme]

Yes, they are, but that's more of a hormone thing and not a sexual thing. There are many straight men who look feminine. It can be fixed with hormonal treatment, but, in all likelihood, would have to continue throughout their lives.

Acting gay (as in the gay stereotype) is just that: acting. It is not real. It is an intentional, developed behaviour.

I have known a number of men with a limp wrist and gay speech type of talk. It is the persona that they are comfortable with.
I don't believe that it was intentionally developed by them, any more than the guy who acts like a cave man.
It's hard to think that one makes a decision to act sissified.

 

[gsdx]

It is the persona that they are comfortable with.

But it wasn't a persona that they were born with. It is one they developed, ad, if they made a decision to develop it, they had to do it intentionally.

That's why it's called a stereotype.

 

[peeonme]

But it wasn't a persona that they were born with. It is one they developed, ad, if they made a decision to develop it, they had to do it intentionally.

That's why it's called a stereotype.

We develop many habits and mannerisms as we mature, most are not cognitive intentional actions, but rather re-actions to our surroundings and a way to feel more comfortable with ourselves.

Not all are born to act like John Wayne.
What is normal? Who is to say?

 

[SaskGuy]

Some straight guys are more effeminate, and some gay guys are more masculine. Every guy has different mannerisms and personalities.

One thing that annoys me though, is when people make claims such as "masculinity is a social construct". Just because some guys aren't as masculine as they make themselves out to be, doesn't mean a lot of guys in general aren't naturally masculine.

If a guy is interested in cooking, or some other such stereotypically feminine activity, of course he should be encouraged.... but it also works the other way. Some people view masculinity as "toxic" and will try to shame guys for being masculine.... that's just as bad as trying to shame a guy for being feminine, and it's just as regressive.

 

[rareboy]

I'm sorry you choose to live in such fear. Besides your bomb shelter, you could always build a wall between Canada and the US and send us the bill.

What the fuck does this reply even mean? It has nothing to do with the point being made...but nice attempt at a derail.

 

[MakeDigitalLove]

Some straight guys are more effeminate, and some gay guys are more masculine. Every guy has different mannerisms and personalities.

One thing that annoys me though, is when people make claims such as "masculinity is a social construct". Just because some guys aren't as masculine as they make themselves out to be, doesn't mean a lot of guys in general aren't naturally masculine.

If a guy is interested in cooking, or some other such stereotypically feminine activity, of course he should be encouraged.... but it also works the other way. Some people view masculinity as "toxic" and will try to shame guys for being masculine.... that's just as bad as trying to shame a guy for being feminine, and it's just as regressive.

But masculinity or feminine are quite a bit of a social construct, since people tend to not do things or do things because it is either seen as "feminine" or "masculine." People change their behavior because of it. All colors are neutral, but we decided that blue is for boys and pink is for girls.

The fault isn't in either of these, the fault in these is that people make them out to be either good or bad. If a woman is seen as masculine it is wrong and if a man is seen as feminine it is wrong or both of these individuals are assumed to be homosexuals. I think it is silly that people generally want to put themselves into the category of either feminine or masculine, I tend to think a lot, if not all people have both of these traits but a lot of us decide what the public gets to see because of how society chooses to see it.

And as we grow up we are either directly taught or indirectly taught these things, it might not be completely a social construct, but for the most part it is. Otherwise certain actions, behaviors, activities, etc wouldn't be seen as masculine or feminine. They would be seen for what they really are, just neutral actions, behaviors, activities, etc.

 

[Benvolio]

Nevertheless, I don't think Richard Simmons can be like Tom Selleck if he chooses. And I think he would choose to be more masculine if he could. Something more is going on than construct, or acting etc. I continue to believe the evidence suggests that for some gays, at least, it is a physical, i.e. genetic or physiological difference.

 

[gsdx]

^ Or, it could be nothing more than exaggeration. It worked for Richard and Liberace. Look how popular and rich they became.

Homosexuality is not genetic.

 

[sixthson]

What the fuck does this reply even mean? It has nothing to do with the point being made...but nice attempt at a derail.

Calm your tits down and take your meds. Life is to short to be so angry.

 

[SaskGuy]

But masculinity or feminine are quite a bit of a social construct, since people tend to not do things or do things because it is either seen as "feminine" or "masculine." People change their behavior because of it. All colors are neutral, but we decided that blue is for boys and pink is for girls.

The fault isn't in either of these, the fault in these is that people make them out to be either good or bad. If a woman is seen as masculine it is wrong and if a man is seen as feminine it is wrong or both of these individuals are assumed to be homosexuals. I think it is silly that people generally want to put themselves into the category of either feminine or masculine, I tend to think a lot, if not all people have both of these traits but a lot of us decide what the public gets to see because of how society chooses to see it.

And as we grow up we are either directly taught or indirectly taught these things, it might not be completely a social construct, but for the most part it is. Otherwise certain actions, behaviors, activities, etc wouldn't be seen as masculine or feminine. They would be seen for what they really are, just neutral actions, behaviors, activities, etc.

Like I said, some guys are masculine because it's the way they were brought up, but that doesn't mean a lot of guys aren't masculine because that's who they are.
A lot of women are naturally very feminine. A lot of men are naturally very masculine. I would not call masculinity or femininity as a whole, a "social construct."
Not all people have those traits, and those who don't shouldn't be shamed for it, but the fact is, a lot of people do.

It's like if I said that heterosexuality is a social construct, all men are gay, and they're only pretending to be straight because society dictates it. The fact is, 90% of people are straight.

I also pointed out that whether a guy is very feminine, or very masculine, he should be accepted for who he is. The way some people shame men and boys for being masculine, teaching them about BS like "toxic masculinity", etc, is not at all different from shaming men and boys for being feminine. What's wrong with accepting people for who they naturally are?

 

[mikey3000]

What nonsense.

Yeah, calm your tits down. (I just felt like saying that .)

Actually, I don't want pity ("it's not his fault he's gay, he was born that way"). I prefer to have the freedom and the legal right to choose whom I wish to spend my life with.

 

[MakeDigitalLove]

Like I said, some guys are masculine because it's the way they were brought up, but that doesn't mean a lot of guys aren't masculine because that's who they are.
A lot of women are naturally very feminine. A lot of men are naturally very masculine. I would not call masculinity or femininity as a whole, a "social construct."
Not all people have those traits, and those who don't shouldn't be shamed for it, but the fact is, a lot of people do.

Yes, but people who are shamed for it are because of the social construct that surrounds it. Traits are only "masculine" and "feminine" because society decided certain traits were.

 

[SaskGuy]

But masculinity or feminine are quite a bit of a social construct, since people tend to not do things or do things because it is either seen as "feminine" or "masculine." People change their behavior because of it. All colors are neutral, but we decided that blue is for boys and pink is for girls.

The fault isn't in either of these, the fault in these is that people make them out to be either good or bad. If a woman is seen as masculine it is wrong and if a man is seen as feminine it is wrong or both of these individuals are assumed to be homosexuals. I think it is silly that people generally want to put themselves into the category of either feminine or masculine, I tend to think a lot, if not all people have both of these traits but a lot of us decide what the public gets to see because of how society chooses to see it.

And as we grow up we are either directly taught or indirectly taught these things, it might not be completely a social construct, but for the most part it is. Otherwise certain actions, behaviors, activities, etc wouldn't be seen as masculine or feminine. They would be seen for what they really are, just neutral actions, behaviors, activities, etc.

Yes, but people who are shamed for it are because of the social construct that surrounds it. Traits are only "masculine" and "feminine" because society decided certain traits were.

It's just another example of people being shamed for being different, and not following along with the majority (although thankfully, that mindset is changing for the most part.)
The fact is though, the majority of men are naturally masculine, and the majority of women are naturally feminine. Most of them don't just act like that because society tells them to. This doesn't mean that there aren't feminine men, and masculine women though.

 

[ballcaphair]

If I am understanding this thread, we are debating why the rose smells so sweet.

 

[NotHardUp1]

If I am understanding this thread, we are debating why the rose smells so sweet.

That would be entirely relative to where you are born on this planet. You might be smelling sweet roses in Soho, West Hollywood, or the Castro, or you might be finding yourself forced into straight marriage by family in India, Arabia, or shoved off a building's roof.

 

[Benvolio]

Yes, but people who are shamed for it are because of the social construct that surrounds it. Traits are only "masculine" and "feminine" because society decided certain traits were.

Much of what we call masculinity are traits which evolved to enable the male to hunt and protect the family from animals and other savage humans. That is why the male is bigger, stronger, and braver.

 

[peeonme]

Yeah, calm your tits down. (I just felt like saying that .)

Actually, I don't want pity ("it's not his fault he's gay, he was born that way"). I prefer to have the freedom and the legal right to choose whom I wish to spend my life with.

The big question that people have had to deal with is if there is any FAULT in being gay.
Many in society think that if some one chooses to be gay, then they are willingly going against nature and how they were made to behave sexually.

I have never known of any one who has chose to have an attraction for the same sex. The argument for gay rights hinges upon gay people being gay by no choice of their own.
If it's by nature then there is no choice. If it's by nurture then some think it can be undone, that a person can be "made straight".

Anyone can choose who they want to spend their life with, no one can choose who they are attracted to sexually.
Rights can not hang on choice when it comes to sexual attraction, the majority will never go that route.

 

[kallipolis]

Much of what we call masculinity are traits which evolved to enable the male to hunt and protect the family from animals and other savage humans. That is why the male is bigger, stronger, and braver.

"Big size" is not evidence of wisdom, or strength, or courage.

About ten years ago I attended a martial arts exhibition in Athens as a spectator. The most thrilling demonstrations of various Kung fu styles were provided by Chinese practioners male, and female over 65 years of age, who by Western standards were very short, and very thin, and although possessing good muscle tone, were not muscular....these "stars" invited local experienced martial artists in the audience to join them on stage, and hit them. Most of the volunteers who came forward were very young men in their early/mid twenties. None could land one punch on the old men, and women demonstrating their skills were not the result of being "bigger, stronger, and braver."