Time to remove T&B from LGBT?

[Apollo]

It is so sad that this topic has been created.

I would love to see those 10 people who voted yes, this should have happened years ago try and explain their point of view.

 

[Sinister Dexter]

^ I must say this about the unwieldiness of the acronym: I've seen someone use LGBTQQC (Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, Queer, Questioning, Curious). Talk about unwieldy! (also, I don't see much difference between the second Q and the C)

I completely agree with you. I understand that we sexual deviants enjoy labeling ourselves, but it gets ridiculous. It would be great to think up a new word, but I don't think you'll ever convince the whole community that it applies to them. Even something like Queer (which I had always thought meant something reasonably simple along the lines of Lex's non-straight) is often controversial.

I'm not touching the Bi discussion...

 

[The Yattering]

Tribalism: the most debilitating, dangerous and fucking moronic hold over of our evolutionary history, and a severe fault that may one day end up costing our species much more than it already has. Put it down folks; the people across the water are alot like you, probably moreso than you even realise. Common biology and evolutionary ancestry has a habit of producing remarkably similar specimens, regardless of the divisions we construct between ourselves.

 

[The Yattering]

^You wanna take that out of prose and into something a lot more digestible?

Nah, I like it the way it is. It's purdy.

 

[Sinister Dexter]

Why not touch the Bi discussion? Have anything against them?

Oh no, I'm have nothing against them. I just don't want to get involved in the discussion because it's been discussed before, and people get passionate about it.

 

[Guy89]

The fourth option pretty much summarizes my opinion.

 

[treanir]

Something I've been thinking about all day:

I seem to remember a time when the accepted abbreviation was GLBT, not LGBT. When did that change? And more importantly: why?

 

[Lube]

Bent
.......

>>>My only problem with all the letters in the acronym is that they're unweildy, especially when we try to make more people feel included and add more letters on. I wish we had a shorter, more inclusive name that still honors the constituent parts. Like "Human," or something.

I've always been partial to "alt-sexed" and "non-straight".

Lex

 

[BabiGayPimp]

U-N-I-T-Y. "If we don't hang together, we will most assuredly hang separately." When first came out, as a gay man, I was befriended by Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, AND transgendred individuals who populated our community. While would I turn my back on my friends?

 

[G-Lexington]

>>>And On A Personal Note I Know Of No Gay Man Who Has Entered Into A Relationship With A Bisexual Man And Come Out Of It Better Off For Having Done So.

Ditto. Because either they stay in the relationship - in which case the bisexual guy "was just a fag but too chicken shit to admit it", or the relationship ends - in which case "you can't trust a bi-guy - he'll dump you for a bitch the second your back is turned."

Lex

 

[JasunStrikesBack]

OK, before we get TOO upset about the OP, The term "LGBT" doesn't really represent an actual "community."

Transgendered people will get angry and often will get downright offended if you try to lump them in with gay people. Most of them think of themselves as heterosexual people who were born in the "wrong" body.

Many bisexual people don't consider themselves part of the greater "LGBT Community" either. They'll often say they stay as far away from the gay community and gay life as possible. A recent poll in the bisexual forum had the result of something like 85% of them in the closet with no intention of ever coming out. No judgements... live you life how you want... but if you're staying away from the community and you're not active in the community, you're not really part of the community.

Gay men and Lesbians don't really have that long of a rich history together either. It's gotten a lot better. But the hippie-dippy Utopian idea of Gays, Lesbians, the Transgendered and Bisexual people all being united really doesn't have much basis in reality.

 

[TickTockMan]

A recent poll in the bisexual forum had the result of something like 85% of them in the closet with no intention of ever coming out.

That doesn’t really prove anything though. This is a web forum where people can be whatever they want to be. Most of the out bi people I know never use forums, they go to bars, church or their clubs they are members of. A little poll on one site proves nothing.

Do you really think those that are fully out and about want to hang out on a web site?

 

[JasunStrikesBack]

That doesn’t really prove anything though.

Totally. JUB is a microcosm of people who spend too much time on their computers, not the gay community as large... I tried very hard NOT to say the poll "proved" or "showed" anything but "had the result."

I guess my point is that I don't really know many bi people out in the community at large.

And I'm saying this, of course, while at home on a saturday night, exhausted and tired from a VERY long day of shooting. So I might feel different tomorrow.

 

[JasunStrikesBack]

I'd be careful with identifying "most" trans folk as heterosexual. I've seen a pretty damn wide range of sexual orientations in trans folk.

Most I've known, I guess. I've only known a couple homophobic transexual people.



OH... one very big mistake people are making in this thread.

they attribute the Stonewall Riots to the Transgendered. This isn't accurate. It wasn't transexuals who started the riots, it was drag queens. Gay men who dressed in women's clothes for recreation or fun or shows... they weren't trans men or women.

 

[slnattak]

The main cause of contradictory and ambivalence in the gay community has a lot to do with subjectivity vs. objectivity.

Only *You* know what it's like to have great meaning or depth about something. Whether this is being gay or liking the color vomit green when everybody else picked 'Ruby Red.' It is based on your own personal feelings, and they are UNIQUELY yours. There is no one else quite like you. This is where self-acceptance is the key because you can't understand anybody's subjective perceptions any more than they can understand yours! It is truly personal and YOU have to own it, and stop looking for 'society' to make it happen because as I'll explain in a little bit it is IMPOSSIBLE for a society/government to objectively like or accept something.

However, objectively speaking there are issues that we all face, that we all have to deal with. There are things that *everybody* in a given society goes through eventually no matter who they are. Everybody deserves the same general opportunities or the WHOLE fucking thing falls apart -- for EVERYBODY. If we want a full-functioning society then you have to include everybody, given the same potentiality in that way, or nothing will work out. I mean, are we really gonna be stupid and not hire the next African American (just cause the employer doesn't personally like black people) -- he could possibly cure cancer! There's a common collective goal based on interdependence and the greater good for all. So you shouldn't fire somebody from a job just cause they're gay nor you should harm them in any way OBJECTIVELY speaking. You can have whatever personal beliefs about bisexuals or trannies or straight people or gay people or latinos or whoever you like.

You don't have to like me. I repeat. You don't have to like me. You are allowed to not like me. It is your birthright as a free, liberated human being NOT to like me. But as soon as you try to harm me in a way where there is OBJECTIVE evidence that an outside source could witness, then we have problems buddy.

However, the gay community falls flat on its face because it frequently does silly little plays and shows trying to get people to LIKE us. But it is really annoying because you soon realize that nobody can force ANYBODY to like them. It is both patronizing and impossible. It is subjective again. Either people like you or they don't. You can't make anybody like you no matter how pretty you look and act (how witty and 'nice' you are as a gay man that tries so hard to be respectable), and this is the kind of 'political correction' that South Park writers love to make fun of.

I can't get you to like playing Shamans on World of Warcraft if you want to be a Mage. I can't get you to enjoy winter if your favorite season is summer. It feels very romantic and OMG AWESOME when our subjective realities match up with other peoples. That's where our true friend and family come in. But you can't get 'the world' to see something that only a few people see.

So just like everybody else- our community has to learn how to not be so idealistic. Use cold-hearted *facts.* Nobody cares about your hurt feelings besides you and the people in your own emotional circle. Stop trying to make everybody like you and instead use objective FACTS to win the arguement.

 

[treanir]

I've seen it both ways. I don't think there is an official one way or the other. But I do notice that when people say it unabbreviated, it usually comes out, "lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender."

Meh. They can do TBLG or BGTL for all I care.

Why is this G suddenly craving a BLT sandwich?

And now all of you: groan in unison. Groan I say!

 

[GL]

"the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few."

"we sink or swim together."

"there is strength in numbers."

i think it would be exceptionally narrow sighted to exclude any one group from our minority.

 

[BabiGayPimp]

OK, before we get TOO upset about the OP, The term "LGBT" doesn't really represent an actual "community."

Transgendered people will get angry and often will get downright offended if you try to lump them in with gay people. Most of them think of themselves as heterosexual people who were born in the "wrong" body.

Many bisexual people don't consider themselves part of the greater "LGBT Community" either. They'll often say they stay as far away from the gay community and gay life as possible. A recent poll in the bisexual forum had the result of something like 85% of them in the closet with no intention of ever coming out. No judgements... live you life how you want... but if you're staying away from the community and you're not active in the community, you're not really part of the community.

Gay men and Lesbians don't really have that long of a rich history together either. It's gotten a lot better. But the hippie-dippy Utopian idea of Gays, Lesbians, the Transgendered and Bisexual people all being united really doesn't have much basis in reality.

I disagree with the notion that there is no LGBT community.

Reminds me of those individuals who feverntly deny that there is an African American community, when I experience that community constantly.

Of course there is a LGBT community. Perhaps not as cohesive as some would like. And not fixed to a specific, place, form , and identity--but coalesces anytime and anywhere the opportunity is ripe, a critical mass of individuals form, and paths cross.

Walking through the gay villages of many cities and towns on those first few warm summer evening in late spring, there a paplable sense of community that can be observed and felt, and the collective identity tag is some variation of LGBT. People, even straights, are drawn to those areas for that reason. They don't hang out in the village looking for sex. They linger in the village to experience community of a unique sort, that comes from us.

Crisis exposes the community that is always there,even if is is frequently denied. We never value, or recognize what we have until it is threatened.

 

[Swellegant]

One of the things that causes confusion in these kinds of debates is the meanings of words and the different connotations and even denotations that people will apply to it.

For example, the word "community." When I hear people say that there is no LGBT community, I usually hear a rather childishly utopian definition of a community: a bunch of people who like each other, bound by common agreement to aid and assist each other in mutual benefit, who have barbecues and yard-sales together and all live in a happy little village... like the Smurfs.

But really, the LGBT community is more like a huge family. You don't get to choose your relatives, you don't even have to like all of your relatives, you don't have to live with your relatives or agree with your relatives or have anything at all to do with your relatives, nor they you. But they are still your relatives, and you are theirs. You have blood and DNA and history in common, and there's absolutely nothing you can do about that.

People who wish to flush their immediate family down the drain in order to be part of another branch of family are just reprehensible in my opinion. I may loathe my mother, have no use for my half-brothers, and harbor a deep desire to push my cousin down a flight of stairs, but I'm certainly not going to harm all of my family just because I don't like some of them, and certainly not for my own selfish gains.

 

[Swellegant]

I Was Hardly Surprised When I Was Roundly Criticized Here On JUB By What I Can Only Describe As Str8 Miscreants, Bullying Bi-boys, And A Homophobia Apologist Who Frequently Dominate Discussions In A Nefarious Attempt To Intimidate, Silence And Isolate Those Who Present A Non-Quixotic Pro Queer Point Of View.

I don't believe I fall into any of those groups, but I will also roundly criticize this practice... though not at much length, since it's off-topic.

To adopt the same methods that have harmed us doesn't really help us. Certainly it might give us some short-term benefits, especially those of us who get hired in a discriminatory atmosphere; but in the long run it will hurt the whole group because it's the wrong thing to do. Using discriminatory hiring practices makes a clear statement that discrimination is OK... but only so long as I get to discriminate, too.

The ultimate goal is not to get back at the straights, nor to lord it over the straights... the ultimate goal is to live in harmony and mutual respect with the straights, to create a world where gay and straight are quaint cultural differences, like being French-American or Italian-American, rather than an angry and hate-filled divide. And nobody is going to get there if we just perpetuate the same evils that we ourselves have suffered.