To all married or divorced guys. Lets start fighting our corner!

[bludevl32]

To use a quote from a "person" I do not necessarily believe existed:

Let he among you who is without sin cast the first stone.

 

[dodo2761]

I am fed up with guys who have never been married to a woman making off hand comments or being judgemental about us who did but who are gay.

They have no idea what pressures we may have been put under or have no idea exactly why we did it.
They have no idea of the pressure to maintain the relationship either by being faithful or not.
They have no idea about how difficult it might be to break away from that relationship once we have children.
They have no idea how difficult it is to tell your wife or children that you are gay.
they have no idea how difficult it is to leave a marital home. the home you have spent years investing in.
The financial loss alone is potentially huge- I lost over £150,000.

So guys lets start fighting back- lets tell those guys who are so all knowing what it was like.
Tell of the tears the heartbreak- the bags on the lawn. Having to sleep in a car.
All the trauma we went through to be who we really are.
Some of us are even to scared to make the break- lets tell them how difficult we have had it.

I didnt say they were my bags on the lawn or that i slept in the car

 

[mpdan]

…….And it doesn’t matter dodo. Because in your post you came out swinging, and what resulted was a spirited fray that got some hot under the collar and others defensive. It was a post every bit worthy of the Hot Topics! Forum on JUB and absolutely no-one made a statement that wasn’t dear to their heart, nor at the very core of their beliefs. Never married men were educated and married or formerly married men were shown the other side of the coin – the justified resentment for thinking they were somehow entitled to "have your cake and eat it too".

It was so much better than just another post along the lines of “what color is your car?” I loved it. Thank-you.

And now it’s time to join Elwood and me in telling your story. Along with EricCage and each of the 2gayguys, and all of the married men who participated in this discussion -it’s time. For deep in the halls of the No Flame Relationship forum is a thread titled “Married Men coming out” – and (so far!) we have been affirmed. It was started by a man named megustamyn, - and “explore” the description of his lovers’ coming out. It may have a familiar coincidence to it! Pay attention to the posts by Smaq44; for if married guys were to give a “Mother Theresa” award for selflessness it would have to be to his wife of 33 years – for he is a gay man who remains faithful to his wife; and she to him! Yet like many married men in this section his original posts were slammed by detractors. The post can be found here:
http://justusboys.com/forum/showthread.php?t=82857

And please, gentlemen this section is a no flame zone – and the post is asking for replies from married or formally married men.

I’d like to tell one more personal story. When I return to camp this year as a guest; I will be greeted by a nice enough man named Howie who owns the site across from us. I’m not particularly fond of Howie, but I am good friends with an employee of his who works as a caretaker at one of his properties. Howie has been married for more than 50 years; He and his wife own a large estate on the Island, as well as 2 winter vacation homes in the sunbelt states and (conveniently) a summer home near the gay campground. They have an adult child and grandchildren. Now I frankly cannot believe after 50 years his wife would not have inkling that her husband is gay, but it is not my concern. Nor it is my concern that he has grandchildren, which from conversation we have had, he loves very much. It simply is not my business. Nor is it my business to call his wife and report how much he drinks, or smokes.

I am not fond of Howie because he has an annoying habit of asking everyone he meets their education levels. I prefer to judge a man on his merits, if he is an interesting conversationalist; - or if he is at the level of success where he wants to be. Howie will greet me warmly – either because he seems to be fascinated with the college I graduated from, or because like him I'm also a daddy, or because he thinks I have a big dick. (I assure you if he ever sees the latter he will be sorely mistaken) Either way, I would never pass judgment on him because he has a family – I do not know them, and doubt I ever will. It is simply not my place.

 

[luminum]

But you would pass judgement on him based on his merits if he ever cheated on his wife of 50 years?

 

[NickCole]

I didnt say they were my bags on the lawn or that i slept in the car

Nope, you didn't.

But from the very first reponse it's clear that's how we all read your post, it wasn't by accident, and you didn't "correct" that assumption until I called you on an inconsistency. Closeted married men are steeped in deception, it runs through their veins and every element of their self-presentation. They're liars to the people they claim most imtimately to be truthful with. And the pain and destruction that causes is part of my point.

Not that being deceptive is unusual on the Internet, but your effort to deceive in this instance supports my point.

 

[NickCole]

I’d like to tell one more personal story. When I return to camp this year as a guest; I will be greeted by a nice enough man named Howie who owns the site across from us. I’m not particularly fond of Howie, but I am good friends with an employee of his who works as a caretaker at one of his properties. Howie has been married for more than 50 years; He and his wife own a large estate on the Island, as well as 2 winter vacation homes in the sunbelt states and (conveniently) a summer home near the gay campground. They have an adult child and grandchildren. Now I frankly cannot believe after 50 years his wife would not have inkling that her husband is gay, but it is not my concern. Nor it is my concern that he has grandchildren, which from conversation we have had, he loves very much. It simply is not my business. Nor is it my business to call his wife and report how much he drinks, or smokes.

I am not fond of Howie because he has an annoying habit of asking everyone he meets their education levels. I prefer to judge a man on his merits, if he is an interesting conversationalist; - or if he is at the level of success where he wants to be. Howie will greet me warmly – either because he seems to be fascinated with the college I graduated from, or because like him I'm also a daddy, or because he thinks I have a big dick. (I assure you if he ever sees the latter he will be sorely mistaken) Either way, I would never pass judgment on him because he has a family – I do not know them, and doubt I ever will. It is simply not my place.

I agree it's not your place to judge Howie on his relationship with his wife and children since you don't know the nature of those relationships anyway. You don't know whether or not his wife knows Howie is gay or bisexual, or what their arrangement is.

However, you imply that you believe Howie is secretly gay and, in the context of this post that's interesting. You wouldn't judge Howie being deceptive to his wife of 50 years, and his adult child and grandchildren, but you do judge him because he's not an interesting conversationalist?

Well to each his own.

I have no issue at all with people being curious about my education level, or anything else about me, but a guy who lies about his essential self to the people closest to him -- nuh uh.

 

[NickCole]

Oh, the bulk of gay men love married men with big dick snaking down inside their trousers and straining against the zipper of the fly. And some (which I don't get) consider it a feather in their sexuality bonnet to get married men in their bed (well, that isn't all that difficult) or rather to get a married man to "prefer" them as compared to their wives.

There's a militant group within the gay community who hate & despise the closeted married man and any married man found to be padding around a bathhouse, his big breeder dick swinging.

I suppose the strong reaction to such men (especially the latter) is because some gay men are so concerned about THE HOUSEWIVES OF AMERICA (note their particular interest in "Desperate Housewives").

Or they may think that a promise is a promise and that these married men PINKY SWORE (or make that left ring finger swore) that they would uphold fidelity in their marriage. And then there they are, standing in some XXX with three MEN taking turns sucking on their huge family-oriented (although not family-dedicated) erection. And such makes some gay men all steamed up because bottom line is that some gay men have a sense of morals or are really more Romantic at heart than any "Whose Wedding Is This Anyway?" episode following around a spoiled blonde Texas girl could ever illustrate.

But I also think some of the annoyed, angry reaction to married men who have sex with other men or who even have full blown romantic affairs with other men (you know, when the sex comes along with a golf weekend, too) is that really, really, really so many married men are extremely TEMPTING.

Often they are choice cuts of man. And so when a married man decides to flirt or have a fling with another man, he's as tempting to many gay men as he is to those sluttier types known as female office temps.

When a married man starts to tug down his zipper and fishes out his married meat, notice the gay men who can barely be restrained (I think the levees in New Orleans were stronger holding back the water than the LUST FOR MARRIED MEAT is contained within the "dam" of gay lust).

And that temptation - against all they believe - bugs some gay men. Its as if they get annoyed because they're saying, "Oh, Dear God. Why hath thou put this slab of married stud in my path this day? Lord, you know I try to only engage in fornication with other single men. So why. Why do you so tempt me? Am I being tested in the desert while I watch the husband of a good woman wag his cock at any taker as we all gather on this holy ground of the back room at "Daddy Chaps Saloon and Tapas Bar"?

Otherwise the whole issue wouldn't even be an issue to gay men. Unless on some level they're very tempted by married men. Or if their temptation is at odds with their beliefs causing conflict (expressed as "Bad, bad, BAD married men!").

It isn't the cheating that's so horrific in my opinion, it's lying about one's essential self to the person one claims to be building the core of one's life with, the person one claims to be most intimate and trustworthy with.

A spouse builds her life upon the foundation that the nature of her husband's love is as he's presented it. Sure little lies get told, maybe an infidelity along the way, and sure feelings change over time, but one day announcing to one's wife, "The way I said I loved you, I never did" is a profound betrayal. Reaching back into the history of a relationship and saying it all was a lie --even the supposedly innocent "I wanted to love you that way but I didn't" is bullshit-- has nothing to do with eroticism or even sex, it's about essential decency of one human being to another.

You can go on about big dicks and eroticizing married men if that makes you feel justified, but all that stuff is only distraction. I'm talking about feelings, commitment, promises, trust, honor, decency. I get that those things don't mean anything to some people -- I'm saying that they DO mean something to others of us.

But I understand that a conscience is not ingrained into every man.

 

[RobbyIsTehCool]

People can't help what they did in the past, only what they do in the future. Its too easy to rail on them and call them cowards, but its also unfair to 'spect sympathy from those who came out and fought the good fight.

The real thing to do is focus on building a world where this sort of conversation is simply never neccesary.

 

[mpdan]

However, you imply that you believe Howie is secretly gay and, in the context of this post that's interesting. You wouldn't judge Howie being deceptive to his wife of 50 years, and his adult child and grandchildren, but you do judge him because he's not an interesting conversationalist?

Well to each his own.

.

Hmmm I didn't realize I was judging Howie. Thanks for the point. I just find that every time I see him he asks about my alma matta, which I graduated from some 20 years ago. I would hope we would have something else in to talk about, but the conversation always seems to get turned back to schooling. He's a nice guy really, obviously bisexual - since I only see him at the gay campground, it's just after 10 minutes or so our discussion gets a little stale, and no matter how hard I try I can't seem to liven it up.

Thanks Robbie! Your last sentance describes how I hope to lead my new life. I may stumble, but it's the end goal. And it has been JUB, which all of you are members, that has helped the most.

 

[dodo2761]

Nope, you didn't.

But from the very first reponse it's clear that's how we all read your post, it wasn't by accident, and you didn't "correct" that assumption until I called you on an inconsistency. Closeted married men are steeped in deception, it runs through their veins and every element of their self-presentation. They're liars to the people they claim most imtimately to be truthful with. And the pain and destruction that causes is part of my point.

Not that being deceptive is unusual on the Internet, but your effort to deceive in this instance supports my point.

No the point is people jump to assumptions without knowing the facts. I just let it ride a while.

 

[NickCole]

Yes. But its the getting to know one's essential self which is the stickler in all this. Who is to say when or in what way some men come to learn, know or accept that "essential self"?

There may be a guy here and there who fantasizes about pussy when he's a teenager and then suddenly switches to dicks when he's thirty-five but he is a very rare human being.

We all were teenagers, we all fantasized, we all had sexual thoughts. This isn't an esoteric subject where there are lots of ways this happens. Boys get hard-ons when something turns us on -- with gay teenaged boys it's boys, with straight teenaged boys it's girls.

So you can talk six ways to Sunday about when one recognizes one's essential self but it's bullshit. When our dick gets hard because of a guy, when our eye is drawn to guys rather than girls in that way, when we feel that way about a guy and not a girl, that's as essential as it gets. And it doesn't first happen 20 years after a guy marries.

But it just doesn't always happen. Life isn't always so clean and neat for a great many people.

Life isn't neat and clean for most of us. We struggle, we hope we're straight -- and ultimately we have to accept the reality of what we are.

The difference isn't who has it easy and who has it hard, it's who faces up to the hard stuff and who tries to shirk it off to someone else.

I suppose my point is that the sexuality issue of knowing one's "essential self" is only one more thing which many men and women struggle with and wind up making all sorts of clumsy, sloppy, self-centered, frightened - or even "best" - decision they can make at the time.

In that way, its no different than men who are attorneys but always perhaps know its only because it was the "order" of things growing up or by the influence of a parent or society who "swoons" over that crap.

So he does it. But after 20 years he grows up, matures, has an awakening - gets to know his "essential self". And that new-found or no longer denied "essential self" has him leave the law and become a mountain yodeler. A mountain yodeler in charge of the goats.

Saying, "I wanted to love you that way, I tried to make it true because I wanted it to be, but I realize now I was never in love with you that way because I'm gay" is not remotely like saying, "I never really wanted to be a lawyer, I want to yodel." Not remotely.

You're making excuses and that's what I keep calling you guys on.

It's not that you made a mistake. We all make mistakes. It's that you have lived your lives being deceptive, making excuses so you wouldn't have to deal with the hard part of being gay -- and you're still doing it. You're making excuses.

 

[luminum]

Yet, dodo, I feel like as much as you keep saying "People shouldn't judge until they know," you just keep dodging the point at hand.

If a man is gay, got married knowing he was gay, and after was certain he was gay, wanted to be with a man to the point where he wants to cheat on his wife, shouldn't he end the marriage?

And if a man is so pushed that he presently cheats on his wife instead of ending his marriage, is that wrong? You can say that "nothing is right or wrong", but to me, cheatign is cheating. Even if you sympathize with the adulterous couple, it is significantly less complicated and risky to stop the cheating and just be together.

Yes, so if someone just says "I used to be married and I'm gay" you can't really say anything. If they knowingly insinuate that they married out of fear, selfishness, or some other reason that is unrelated to whata marriage is supposed to be formed out of, then they are just as subject to scrutiny and can be compared to men who did not marry out of fear or selfishness.

And if they've been compared to those same people and they refuse to clarify those statements, then it seems to me that they have either been accurately pinned, or they intentionally want to be deceptive.

And some members may not approve of the choices that one made in the past, but if they set it right, what else is there to say? And if they continue living a life that habitually involves dishonesty, I'd say it's fine for people to tell them that they disapprove.

NickCole and others have made it very clear that theya re talkign about a very specific sort of situation. All of your responses that "You can't judge someone until you know" doesn't mean jack if that's the case, since we're assuming the objective truth of the situation is apparent.

So yes, it's very well understood that we can't judge people until we know. But let it be known that if someone knows they're gay and intends on cheating on his wife, and is knowingly deceiving her, then he's lying, risking making a bad situation worse, and would be better off in the long run coming out, letting the truth be known, and wrapping up those loose ends of his life.

You can fill in the sympathy everywhere else, but in any amount of advice, those basic points will remain.

The point seems cold, but when dressed up in sympathy and support, it makes it a lot easier to swallow and seem less judgemental, though it never was to begin with.

 

[dodo2761]

Yet, dodo, I feel like as much as you keep saying "People shouldn't judge until they know," you just keep dodging the point at hand.

If a man is gay, got married knowing he was gay, and after was certain he was gay, wanted to be with a man to the point where he wants to cheat on his wife, shouldn't he end the marriage?

And if a man is so pushed that he presently cheats on his wife instead of ending his marriage, is that wrong? You can say that "nothing is right or wrong", but to me, cheatign is cheating. Even if you sympathize with the adulterous couple, it is significantly less complicated and risky to stop the cheating and just be together.

Yes, so if someone just says "I used to be married and I'm gay" you can't really say anything. If they knowingly insinuate that they married out of fear, selfishness, or some other reason that is unrelated to whata marriage is supposed to be formed out of, then they are just as subject to scrutiny and can be compared to men who did not marry out of fear or selfishness.

And if they've been compared to those same people and they refuse to clarify those statements, then it seems to me that they have either been accurately pinned, or they intentionally want to be deceptive.

And some members may not approve of the choices that one made in the past, but if they set it right, what else is there to say? And if they continue living a life that habitually involves dishonesty, I'd say it's fine for people to tell them that they disapprove.

NickCole and others have made it very clear that theya re talkign about a very specific sort of situation. All of your responses that "You can't judge someone until you know" doesn't mean jack if that's the case, since we're assuming the objective truth of the situation is apparent.

So yes, it's very well understood that we can't judge people until we know. But let it be known that if someone knows they're gay and intends on cheating on his wife, and is knowingly deceiving her, then he's lying, risking making a bad situation worse, and would be better off in the long run coming out, letting the truth be known, and wrapping up those loose ends of his life.

You can fill in the sympathy everywhere else, but in any amount of advice, those basic points will remain.

The point seems cold, but when dressed up in sympathy and support, it makes it a lot easier to swallow and seem less judgemental, though it never was to begin with.

I dont disagree with some of what you say- I would argue that there are ways of saying what you need to say without the need to be abusive or in some cases- and we know who I might mean- threatening.

 

[luminum]

Right, but that doesn't mean that they cannot be compared to others. Every person is different, that's true, and deciding to cave into those pressures doesn't make you a worthless human being by any means. It's a matter of when someone's ready. But I also think that if you're in the position, you know going into it, that you shouldn't be getting married if you're still confused and unsure.

It's hard, because you can't give that reason to an eager girlfriend or your friends and family, but ideally, it's the best way to avoid a huge problem later on.

But just because there are these pressures, can't be a definitive excuse, since there are just as many gay men out there who grew up with that "misinformation", "ignorance" and social pressure and they remained unattached and unwed.

It doesn't make them better. The choice and the situation is what's 'better or worse', not the people. But eventually, one should hope to have the strength and courage to get to that same place.

 

[Soilwork]

I dont disagree with some of what you say- I would argue that there are ways of saying what you need to say without the need to be abusive or in some cases- and we know who I might mean- threatening.

actually no, we DONT know who you mean. You'll have to point out where anyone threatened you.

 

[mike_n_herrin]

I dont disagree with some of what you say- I would argue that there are ways of saying what you need to say without the need to be abusive or in some cases- and we know who I might mean- threatening.

Agree. As I have said COUNTLESS times, people constantly confuse honesty with rudeness. Just "being honest" doesn't have to equate to being rude about it. Many many people have yet to understand this concept, or if they do, they don't care.

 

[jamie_01930]

Re: To all married or divorced guys. Lets start fi

back in the late 60's, there wasn't much of an option . you were either queer or normal. however i did get two kids out of it. wouldn't trade that for anything

 

[mike_n_herrin]

Re: To all married or divorced guys. Lets start fi

/\ "they" are not (at least not that i've seen) been asking for sympathy, but responses to what they are saying need to be civil and not snide or rude comments. this thread was put to bed a while back, it's ok to bring it back, but not if it's just going to have a bunch of rude comments thrown in. just so we're all on the same page, this thread is being monitored.

 

[Piquechampion]

Re: To all married or divorced guys. Lets start fi

I'm not really buying any of these "it was hard" copouts. NOTHING excuses lying, even worse when you create an entire life with someone based on a lie. I imagine there are some gay men who remained faithful to their wives in spite of their desires but...come on now...be real.

If your wife KNOWS you're gay and is okay with it, if you've come clean and acted like a man, my hat's off to you.

If you walk around living in falsehood cuz you're too coward to face reality, if you have a wife and kids that are hurting but all you can do is make excuses for yourself and whine about how hard it was for you, don't come to my door askin' for sympathy. It's not easy for any of us, but as soon as "it was hard" and "there was pressure" become valid defenses we're going to open the floodgates for all kinds of unpleasantries. I mean I'm sure there were some extreme cases, but did your parents put a machete to your throat and say "Marry this woman or else...."?

That's what baffles me

I mean, maybe I will never come out myself, but surely I will never marry someone knowing that I am gay (or more gay in my case), and I make a point of letting all my family and friends know that......

<--------- No one pressures this guy into doing anything.

So as marley said, that is NO excuse, at least not in the States (Arabia is another case entirely) since the beggining of the 20th century or before.

I asked this question and I will ask it again:

IS IT SO HARD FOR A GAY CLOSETED MAN TO JUST STAY SINLGE???

 

[1gayguy]

Re: To all married or divorced guys. Lets start fi

Firstly I have to ask why this thread was resurected. It has been hashed and rehashed to death.
Secondly, as I have said elsewhere in this thread, unless you know the reasons or what's going on in the person's, people's heads that are involved, have never told a lie or have never been in denial about anything, by judging anyone who has been there, you are making yourself no better than say the religious right who stand in judgement of all things homosexual.