To all married or divorced guys. Lets start fighting our corner!

[Soilwork]

I have read numerous entries on posts where married men or divorced men are attcked for what they have done or decision they make- the point i was making is that we all have issues and married men or dicvorced men dont deserve to be abused just because we made bad decisions.
In a private message to me you said


(things that were meant to stay private)

however, since you've outed me here... i've told that story a few times to a few people over my time at JUB. I dont' tell it out in the main area. It's humiliating for me to have to recount the treatment I had, and it's none of people's fucking business.

but you said there that you don't deserve to be abused because you made bad decisions.

I'd be interested to know where, as a teenager who faced hell and went to every person who was supposed to help him, I made bad decisions. you're holding this up as a reason that I'm not any better than you (which I don't think I ever said I was), and Im interested how my treatment as a teenager in a farming village changes anything.

 

[Soilwork]

And if you're going to post a private message, why did you edit out the bulk of it and just get to the end? I mean, you cut out like half of it.

 

[dodo2761]

i wrote what i wrote using evidence- which is a little bit more principled that you who makes comments knowing nothing about the people you write about- I have no intention of lowering myself to levels of abuse such as yourself- you only prove the need for this blog entry in the first place.

 

[Soilwork]

If that makes you feel better, ok.

But I think you've pretty much shown us what kind of guy you really are. You'll admit no wrong-doing here and you'll admit no wrong doing with your life.. everything is someone else's fault or they had it coming.

Thanks for showing us what kind of gay man marries a woman.

 

[dodo2761]

If that makes you feel better, ok.

But I think you've pretty much shown us what kind of guy you really are. You'll admit no wrong-doing here and you'll admit no wrong doing with your life.. everything is someone else's fault or they had it coming.

Thanks for showing us what kind of gay man marries a woman.

Well if I knew there were people like you out there I should have stayed married.
God forbid anyone should come to yu for support.
What a judgemental person you are!
As for never amitting I did anything wrong- who said I didnt- I never claimed that!
Is that another assumption on your part?

 

[Adam2299]

Ok I just read this entire thread (yea, it's called procrastination).

I know I'm only 21 and I don't have a lot of "life experience," but I just wanted to share something....

My old music teacher (who is 39) is currently going through a divorce with his wife of almost 14 years. We've been sending emails back and forth, so I sort of understand what he's going through.

First of all, he is literally the nicest man on the face of the planet. Everyone and their mom loves him. He's just a wonderful person. He's always donating to charities and going out of his way to help people, etc. etc.

And I have explicitly asked him the question "Did you know you were gay before marrying your wife?" and he said that he did know, but he just decided to repress it. He also claims he has strong feelings for her and cares about her deeply, despite not being attracted to her sexually. And the thing is, I really do believe him. I know that he loves his wife. I've seen them together many times and I've seen how much he cares about her. I can also totally relate to how he repressed his homosexuality, b/c I did the same thing in high school. I had sex with girls and totally denied being attracted to guys at all. If I didn't have the loving support of my dad, I'm sure I'd have a girlfriend right now and I'd be on my way to living a "fake" married life. I can pretty much guarantee it.

What I'm trying to say is... we're all simply the product of our own circumstances. No one can make blanket statements and generalize gay men who are married vs. gay men who decided to come out earlier in life and say one is better than the other. The man I'm talking to is absolutely torn up about deceiving his wife of 14 years, but she has finally forgiven him. She claims that she will always love him no matter what (for better or for worse... ha), and she only wants what is best for him. They'll still remain close friends and always love each other uncondionally. It's very obvious to me that they have a real connection despite the fact that he's gay. She's not even mad at him anymore, she's just thankful she has him in her life. So that's ONE case where a married gay man isn't such a horrible person.

I agree with Soil that most men know their sexual orientation before marrying age. However, just because they know it doesn't mean that they accept it. If you don't like something about yourself, you either try to hide it or you try to change it. It's really easy for me to see how gay men who are in serious denial about their sexuality are able to marry women. Hell, I've met girls who I thought I loved before and I've tried to convince myself that I can be straight. I mean, having sex with girls isn't sooooooo bad, right? I can get used to this. It's better than being a fag, right?

And to be perfectly honest, if I didn't have a supportive family who encouraged me to come out, I'd still be saying that to myself. I'm not saying I think it's acceptable for gay men to deceive a woman into marrying him. In fact, I think it's really sad. But it's just like anything else. Sometimes people marry each other for money or fame or power or whatever. Humans crave acceptance and security, often sacrificing others' feelings so they can continue to hide whatever it is they're ashamed of. Is it the "coward's way out"? That's not really for me to judge. But I do think everyone deserves a second chance...

 

[NickCole]

He has no right to slag me off without knowing me!He too has referred to comments made about him in PM- one rule for one and not for another????
He declared war not me- all being fair in love and war!

Well your character is nothing if not consistent.

 

[Soilwork]

Well if I knew there were people like you out there I should have stayed married.

Wow. That would show ME, huh?

Is that another assumption on your part?

from the temper tantrum you're throwing, the "He started it" and the below-the-belt use of my PM to you, I assume that you're about 14.

I will support people.. not coddle them.

I can only give you support if you admit wrong-doing, and it seems that you're not quite there yet.

 

[1gayguy]

Thank You Adam!

 

[dodo2761]

Temper tantrum- I think I have remained pretty calm and not resorted to abuse- something you seem very keen to do- you have shown your colours alot clearer than me.
Fin

 

[luminum]

Christ in heaven...

I feel as though if dodo hadn't come out punching and making himself out to be some married guy who wanted to defend his right to stay in some cushy marriage, he wouldn't be getting all this backlash.

There have been numerous men before you, dodo, who have come onto this board asking for advice and the consensus has been that they need to end it. Judgements withheld, even. Other memebers have just told them that the situation's not good, cheating could get them into a world of trouble, and their best solution is to end the marriage and live as an out man. Objective answer.

It's only when married guys come on here asking for advice on how to cheat on their wives with no consideration to what that means to their marriages that other members get up in arms. Because if you see someone cheating on someone else, you know it's not right. It might be terrible, it might be an escape, but with attachments to another relationship, it's still not right.

Soil's advice that men who are gay and cheating on their wives without another thought, who enter marriages for the 'security', or who do it for all the wrong reasons, without love or anything else, need to man up is a harsh way of saying that they need to do what's right. What's right is not lying to yourself and others. What's right, to me, is standing up for yourself, ending untruths and making your own life as good as it can be by living honestly and happily.

You don't want judgment but you want understanding and support. And if you ask me, I'd say that yeah, you entered into a marriage for selfish reasons or something, or at least not for any of the reasons anyone should get married for, but it's over and maybe it wasn't the best course of action, but you did and you got out of it. The end.

If you hadn't, my advice, at the base of it all, would have been to get out of it.

In truth, no one really cares why you did it, those are just useful for explaining even more why it should end. But the real reason why it should end is because what you have now or what you had to begin with is not what a marriage should be based on. Someone is gay, meaning they should be emotionally tied to another man, not a woman, and someone is straight, meaning they should be emotionally involved with someone of the opposite sex who can reciprocate those feelings emotionally and physically. Marriages are contracts of the complete love between two people. If they're anything less, or can never grow to be more, then the marriages are shams.

No one has said that all married men are lying, cheating, assholes. Even Soil has said that if you married out of love, but found that it wasn't right, that's fine, so long as you have the strength do end it instead of leading your partner on. But he does take issue with people who marry for the wrong reasons, entangle someone else into their lie, and don't have the decency to set themselves and their partner free.

So this has all become very abstract, because almost every member who posted here who had been married thought that every member here disapproving of gay married men was condemning them absolutely. But the truth is that every member here condemning the deception in sham marriages is holding it to men who are still married and refuse to aknowledge the ramifications of their actions.

How could anyone still condemn you after you had ended it? You ended it. That's the right thing to do for your wife and yourself. Elwood ended it, 2gayguys ended it, and asuming if we ever found out, you may have ended it, too. If that's the case, then the arguments going back and forth here are all based on the hypothetical examples of presently married men and not on anyone here.

Or it could be that even if others said that you did the right thing eventually, you don't approve of hearing that what you did initially wasn't the best course of action. If that's the case, then no one can help you there. If that's the case, then yes, I think most gay men here do understand what you and others went through prior to making a heterosexual commitment. Assuming that you and others weren't in love, then the rest of us have gone through just as much confusion and pressure to conform to heterosexual norms, but we didn't do what you and others did.

We will never truly understand what it's like to have end a marriage, but we do know what it's like to prevent heterosexual relationships from going further than they should.

 

[NickCole]

Adam,

I have tried to explain to you before, and boy oh boy I sure do wish you'd listen to me. The choices we make define our character and determine the direction of our life.

This thread began with a post that included this:

They have no idea of the pressure to maintain the relationship either by being faithful or not.
They have no idea about how difficult it might be to break away from that relationship once we have children.
They have no idea how difficult it is to tell your wife or children that you are gay.
they have no idea how difficult it is to leave a marital home. the home you have spent years investing in.
The financial loss alone is potentially huge- I lost over £150,000.

So guys lets start fighting back- lets tell those guys who are so all knowing what it was like.
Tell of the tears the heartbreak- the bags on the lawn. Having to sleep in a car.

Every single problem this man chronicles HE BROUGHT ON HIMSELF. He made all that happen because he's a gay man who CHOSE to marry a woman. He created all those problems. Nobody else. If he'd had the backbone to not marry a woman for cover, not a single one of those problems would have entered his life. And yet he comes on here complaining about these troubles as if he's a victim of them. He's not the victim, his wife and children are the victims. He's the victimizer. And to this day he refuses to accept responsibility for that.

Is that really the kind of man you want to be? Is that the kind of life you want for yourself in 20 years?

If you want to be a man who deceives people you love to get yourself out of a jam, to ease a difficult situation that's yours and yours alone, and in so doing risk causing them deep pain, then that's your choice. But the man who does that is not a good man. A man of integrity, a man of good character does not tell someone he's in love with her, has romantic feelings for her, then marry her, when he knows he's gay or even suspects it. It's wrong and it's unkind. And it has consequences.

Adam, it is wrong to deceive those we love, wrong to betray people who place their trust in us.

 

[dodo2761]

Adam,

I have tried to explain to you before, and boy oh boy I sure do wish you'd listen to me. The choices we make define our character and determine the direction of our life.

This thread began with a post that included this:



Every single problem this man chronicles HE BROUGHT ON HIMSELF. He made all that happen because he's a gay man who CHOSE to marry a woman. He created all those problems. Nobody else. If he'd had the backbone to not marry a woman for cover, not a single one of those problems would have entered his life. And yet he comes on here complaining about these troubles as if he's a victim of them. He's not the victim, his wife and children are the victims. He's the victimizer. And to this day he refuses to accept responsibility for that.

Is that really the kind of man you want to be? Is that the kind of life you want for yourself in 20 years?

If you want to be a man who deceives people you love to get yourself out of a jam, to ease a difficult situation that's yours and yours alone, and in so doing risk causing them deep pain, then that's your choice. But the man who does that is not a good man. A man of integrity, a man of good character does not tell someone he's in love with her, has romantic feelings for her, then marry her, when he knows he's gay or even suspects it. It's wrong and it's unkind. And it has consequences.

Adam, it is wrong to deceive those we love, wrong to betray people who place their trust in us.

I dont disagree with many of the comments you and others have made even some of Soilwork.
My argument remains that often people dont know the facts of a situation.
If guys on her some on and ask how to cheat- they are stupid to think they will get 100% support but again I maintain no one deserves abuse when no one knows the full situation of what they are going through.
Alot of things can be said- its how you say it.

 

[luminum]

And what really are you thanking Adam for? Because he's showing sympathy for the situation? Of course he is! Everyone here has sympathy for what an awful situation it is.

The important thing in Adam's case is that his professor know that he can't go on deceiving his wife. He knows that, so he's ending it. In his case, he feels terrible about it, and he needs emotional supportwhile he's doing the best course of action.

Everyone can relate to that and everyone sympathizes with it.

I think people here are confusing the bottom line with disregard. I give my sympathy to the hardships of married gay men who are going through a hard time because they put themselves in the position of doing what's right, even though they didn't have to. That sucks.

But I commend men like Adam's professor because he's willing to go through hardship to make things right. And he gets my sympathy, too because I understand the situation.

Men who are still in sham marriages get my sympathy, too, but when they refuse to budge out of their own selfishness, they still get stern advice from me that they need to end it. That's not be unsympathetic or mean or judgemental. I know it's hard, but being the hardest thing in the world doesn't change what should be done.

Destroying my relationship with my parents over and over again isn't a good time. It's hard. We get so close, then my sexuality comes up and we explode and everything goes to pieces. But I know that I need to be who I am and they need to face my sexuality, because it's a part of what males me who I am. I'd love to stay safe and keep laughing with them, talking about nonsense, meeting up for dinner, but I know that part of that relationship is based on the fact that so long as we all act like I'm not gay, everything's fine. And I know that's not how our relationship should be.

And the last time I spoke to my parents about it, my mom threatened to kill herself and my dad disowned me. That sucked. But they came around and now I know that while things aren't great, they're a bit clearer. I said what I needed them to hear, and things have slowly moved forward.

It will be hard to do it again if I have to, but being able to do that is part of what I feel makes me a srong person.

So don't say that we can't know the pressure or how hard things are, because we do. And we know it's hard for gay marrie dmen to take that step. But we also know that it's for the best and we encourage men who are married to do right by themselves and their loved ones so that everyone can have the choice to seek their own happiness.

If guys on her some on and ask how to cheat- they are stupid to think they will get 100% support but again I maintain no one deserves abuse when no one knows the full situation of what they are going through.
Alot of things can be said- its how you say it.

You are correct that people should not give advice without aknowledgement of the limit of the facts. However, many people who give earnest advice tot hese ment mentiont he different situations they could be in if the information is not provided.

For example, when advice was given to 'Exploring' people said that unless his wife knows, unless his wife is okay with an open relationship, then him cheating is not okay because it probably won't be okay to her.

In his case, he also stated that he was 'happily' married and that he really wants to explore his sexuality. If 'happily married' wasn't indication enough, then what else could his situation have been other than being a gay or bisexual man who wanted to have sexual relations with someone outside his marriage without his wife's knowledge?

It's true that some users do not ask in their responses about the man's situation, but there are always some who do ask for clarification and give advice based on hypothetical situations that the poster could be in. And in all that time, the poster has the ability to respond and clarify. When they don't, we can only asume thatt he original information given is the situation at hand.

What married man in an open relationship would post a thread like that, receive tons of criticism implying that he would be cheating on her and never respond with the fact that his wife doesn't care?

 

[mpdan]

The net result is that our newbie MR. Exploring has disappeared from these boards, like so many married guys before him. And even though I politely asked that advice to newbie married guys in the no flame zone be left to those who have walked in their shoes, the insults still flowed in on Mr. Explorings' posting - kind of like beating a dead horse - dontcha think? I'm sure there was a purpose - perhaps to keep other married guys who are realizing their mistakes and looking for non judgemental guidance from testing the waters of JUB. Go away! You are not welcome!

Currently there are no (recent) postings on the No flame coming out and relationships forum from married guys..... thy work is done! But there is a juicy little number happening that should be of interest for the self righteous so all is not lost!

There is a 21 year old man who is shamefully still in the closet. He's new (just joined) and is asking for advice regarding if he should he come out to a co-worker; since he is alone with the truth inside of him and the co-worker is the only gay man he knows. There are some other little problems that he faces, like his dad is his boss and a young woman was recently hired who clearly has a crush on him.

But the self righteous know better! Clearly the problem is that the young man is not out of the closet! And so far replies to his posts are mundane - go slow, steady the course, ensure you think things out before you create and incident at your dad's business.

But he's not out! and although his simple question is if he should confide in a co-worker the problem is staring him in the face! He's not out! And on so many occasions in the No Flame forum and with threads like this similar situation:

http://justusboys.com/forum/showthread.php?t=143185

Something could and should be done about it! May the poster and readers be damned if it's taken totally off the originating topic.

Ah, just when we finally rid JUB of those pesky newbie married guys another "problem" pops up. So gather up your pitch forks, chains and torches boys for there is still more work to be done. I'm not going to provide a link to the young mans thread this time because the thrill of the kill is in the battle itself! But go get him tigers! And on your way back don't forget to swing by the bisexual forum - it's due time for another ethnic cleansing!

 

[Adam2299]

Nick -


I think I said in my post that it was not acceptable to lie to someone about anything, especially in a marriage. I DO think it's a horrible thing to do, and I DO think the original poster brought all those problems onto himself. I realize that.

The guy who started this thread is complaining about his own mistakes and expecting us to pity him, which yea, is incredibly immature. Anyone can see that.

All I'm saying is, he doesn't represent EVERY gay man who is married. My old music teacher WAS wrong by deceiving his wife (of course he was), but all I'm saying is I understand the circumstances which have brought him to this place in his life. I'm not saying I think his actions are acceptable or excusable, I'm just saying I can understand and even relate to him. That's all I'm saying.

I don't pity him, and I don't pity the guy who started this thread. I just think it's sad to think about any circumstance where a person has married someone out of fear rather than love.

 

[dodo2761]

I never asked for pity

 

[NickCole]

I dont disagree with many of the comments you and others have made even some of Soilwork.
My argument remains that often people dont know the facts of a situation.

If it's so important to you that people know the facts then you ought to tell us what they are.

But, regardless, as I wrote earlier, the details may change but the situation remains the same: gay man marries woman and has children. That's not complicated. I've responded to the only element of that situation that I need to know to make my point. In about the most fundamental of ways, you deceived another human being who placed her trust in you. And you knew you were doing it. Then when your deceit and betrayals came crashing down you felt like a victim. You were not a victim of anything but your own bad decisions. Your wrong choices were the cause of all those problems.

You thanked Adam, just now. Adam's a 21 year old gay man and he's conjuring up justifications for making the choices you made. Don't thank him. Set him straight. Help him understand that if he makes those same choices he will create problems for other people and for himself. Help guide him; he's 21, he's just starting out, he's reading this, he's paying attention, he's absorbing and creating his own definitions of how to make choices in his life. Take some responsibility instead of, yet again, grabbing someone and using him as a shield to protect yourself.

 

[Elwood]

Adam,

I have tried to explain to you before, and boy oh boy I sure do wish you'd listen to me. The choices we make define our character and determine the direction of our life.

This thread began with a post that included this:



Every single problem this man chronicles HE BROUGHT ON HIMSELF. He made all that happen because he's a gay man who CHOSE to marry a woman. He created all those problems. Nobody else. If he'd had the backbone to not marry a woman for cover, not a single one of those problems would have entered his life. And yet he comes on here complaining about these troubles as if he's a victim of them. He's not the victim, his wife and children are the victims. He's the victimizer. And to this day he refuses to accept responsibility for that.

Is that really the kind of man you want to be? Is that the kind of life you want for yourself in 20 years?

If you want to be a man who deceives people you love to get yourself out of a jam, to ease a difficult situation that's yours and yours alone, and in so doing risk causing them deep pain, then that's your choice. But the man who does that is not a good man. A man of integrity, a man of good character does not tell someone he's in love with her, has romantic feelings for her, then marry her, when he knows he's gay or even suspects it. It's wrong and it's unkind. And it has consequences.

Adam, it is wrong to deceive those we love, wrong to betray people who place their trust in us.

So you have decided that every gay man who was married, married to cover up they were gay???? I am sorry but that is ludicrous!! Again I am not looking for anyones sympathy or Pity. Yes I made the bed I lived in, and I dealt with it as well, my relationship did not end because of my sexuality. I discovered my sexuality because my relationship came to an end. It had absolutly nothing to do with my sexuality.

Any who I am through with this thread if you closed minded people want to think that ex-married gay guys are all the same go right ahead, like I said in a previous post my concious is clear and I know I am a man of integrity!!

Oh yeah I almost forget, do not forget all gay men are feminine and talk with a lisp as well.

 

[Adam2299]

If it's so important to you that people know the facts then you ought to tell us what they are.

But, regardless, as I wrote earlier, the details may change but the situation remains the same: gay man marries woman and has children. That's not complicated. I've responded to the only element of that situation that I need to know to make my point. In about the most fundamental of ways, you deceived another human being who placed her trust in you. And you knew you were doing it. Then when your deceit and betrayals came crashing down you felt like a victim. You were not a victim of anything but your own bad decisions. Your wrong choices were the cause of all those problems.

You thanked Adam, just now. Adam's a 21 year old gay man and he's conjuring up justifications for making the choices you made. Don't thank him. Set him straight. Help him understand that if he makes those same choices he will create problems for other people and for himself. Help guide him; he's 21, he's just starting out, he's reading this, he's paying attention, he's absorbing and creating his own definitions of how to make choices in his life. Take some responsibility instead of, yet again, grabbing someone and using him as a shield to protect yourself.

I'm not conjuring up justifications!!!!

Ugh just forget I even responded to this thread in the first place.