To all married or divorced guys. Lets start fighting our corner!

[luminum]

No it wasnt- it was about being judged because of the choices we made and why we made them- the consequences of those choices and just because we made those choices its ok to slag us off.

Well, I think in this case, the end justified the means. I think that if you already did what you had to do, painful and all, then that's the end. I can't imagine someone judging you because you made a mistake and then you set it right.

The problem a lot of people here have (and where judgements about 'being a man' come into play) is with men who are still married, and would rather cheat on their spouses without a second thought than come out and stop cheating ont heir wives, and stop lying to their families.

I mean, there are always threads about "I'm a closeted married guy and I was wondering how I can meet some other men to have a good time." Then, when members respond that what they want to do is cheating n their spouse and that the better things would be to come out, drop the lie, and then go and fuck their brains out when it will hurt no one, they get all defensive and say that either "It's hard," or "I don't see why the gay community is judging me since you all like to sleep around so much and you love to cheat on each other," or some other nonsense.

If you were married for whatever reason and you ended it for the better, then I don['t think anyone can judge you or say you're not a man because you already did the hardest thing, which was standing up and taking responsibility for a situation that shouldn't continue.

Perhaps this all happens because Dodo's original post left it ambiguous to whether he was still married or not. If he was still married and it was read that way, it looks like a guy saying "Hey, I'm married and endingit is hard, and you don't know what it takes, and I have a right to not end it and cheat on myw ife with no judgments from you all!"

If it's read that he's no longer married, then it sounds like "Hey, those of us who had been married went through a lot and it was hard and you all may never understand what we went through at the time." Two very different subjects.

So if you entered into a marriage and ended it because you were gay and it wasn't going to work, bravo! You're brave and you did the right thing, even if it was harder than shit.

If you're still married and you're afraid to do what's right because, yes, it will hurt a hell of a lot, but you stillt hink you deserve to hook p with guys, then to me, you need to armor up and get it done. End it, try to make it as understandable and minimally painful as possible and live your life as all of yourself. Your wife may or may not understand, but at least she'll have the freedom to make her life happy. Your kids may or may not understand, but at least they know the truth and can decide from there. And you may or may not get a fair divorce settlement, but you'll have the freedom to be who you are and pick up your life anew on your own terms. It's tough and it's hard, but many men have been married like you and they've done it and come out okay, which makes this thread here so important:

Married Men Coming Out

 

[Tongue_Me]

It's quite narrow minded of certain people to thing in such black and white terms. Not everything is either right or wrong, there are circumstances beyond our control and people make mistakes. They don't deserve to be villified for not having the courage to face up to their sexuality. Perhaps it's certain members of the gay communtiy who prevent them from feeling ready to come out without being judged from every corner.

I was lucky in that I knew who I was when I was very young and had supportive parents who were open minded and very accepting of gay people in general. Not every persons family is like that and I could see how, even in this day and age, certain places in the world where being openly gay just wouldn't be tolerated.

If you can have the courage to stand up and be counted as a gay man then i'll welcome you with open arms and support you. What I won't do is judge you for having made a personal choice which, right or wrong affected both your life and the lives of those around you.

 

[Elwood]

I just want to clarify some thing here I to am talking about guys who are divorced and are now living out. I also deplore someone who is still married and cheating on their wife with men. The worst is when the justify it with " It is not really cheating because it is with another man" I am sorry, yes Soil those guys are fuck-tards ( I like that word I may start using it on a daily basis) When I first came out I was a member of another forum where most of the guys were married and had men on the side, and they used the justification that it wasn't cheating because it was with a man. Sorry honey cheating is cheating wether it is a man or a women. I didn't stay very long on that site.

I am very proud of myself with my accomplishments over the last 3 years, and that is why I say I am not looking for pity or a poor you, Fuck I am the happiest I have been in years.

 

[luminum]

It's quite narrow minded of certain people to thing in such black and white terms. Not everything is either right or wrong, there are circumstances beyond our control and people make mistakes. They don't deserve to be villified for not having the courage to face up to their sexuality. Perhaps it's certain members of the gay communtiy who prevent them from feeling ready to come out without being judged from every corner.

If youw ant, you can substitute more objective terms, here: Right or Wrong--Living a lie or Living honestly.

Perhaps villified is correct in context, that they shouldn't be villified, but if the secret they're carrying is affecting the lives of others aroudn them ina big way, then yes, I think there's aproblem there.

Maybe no one should be judged, but consider the case of men who cheat on their wives with other men without a secodn thought. They expose their wives to danger via STDs, some of which don't require sexual contact. They're goin gback on a relationship based out of fidelity and trust. And, pardon me for sounding selfish, they're also setting themselves up for a huge, nasty, confrontation if they ever got found out cheating. They could be blackmailed, they could be thrown out, they could even be attacked violently.

The best course of action is to do it one's own terms and confront the situation head on. And you can't do that if you can't work up the nerve to confront your own sexuality.

Because, right or wrong, the end of the day is that your marriage is based on decpetion of others, and it places your loved ones in an unfair state of obliviousness, and it places you in a position of risk, secrecy, and possibly guilt and shame.

 

[NickCole]

We all know why homosexuals stay in the closet, marry women and have children. It isn't a big secret, and even though details change from man to man, the reason is always the same. Trying to be something you're not. Trying to make something true because you want it to be true. Pretending to be something that will make life easier, hand you more prizes, more of the "right" friends and job promotions.

Every gay man knows about it because every one of us grew up in the same homophobic society with the same list of expectations -- and the same horrifying moment of fear and shame and sorrow: oh god please don't make me one of them. And the moment that follows: what am I going to do? Details change from family to family, town to town, but they all expect the same thing. Get married. Have children. And if you don't, there's something wrong with you. Nobody dreams of having a fag in the family, no boss hopes a queer will represent his company on the golf course.

You think there's something we don't understand about that? You think we don't get that living a lie is a burden? You think we can't figure out that longing for the touch of a man when you're married to a woman can be agony? We know. We get it.

In some things there is right and wrong, and it is wrong to deceive those we love. When a man does that day after day, year after year, deceive people he says he loves, people who trust him, so he doesn't have to face ridicule and anger and disappointment, I don't see how that entitles him to sympathy for whatever discomfort he's felt through it.

Everybody, every day, has a chance to start over. Admit mistakes, set upturned tables right, make amends, repair the damage we've done. And when we do, bravo! But cleaning up the wreckage doesn't undo all that came before. We're responsible for our choices, our actions, our stumbles and our deceptions. And if we get hurt while we're hurting others in an attempt to spare ourselves, that's a pain we're obligated to accept full responsibility for.

Closeted married men get a lot of perks basking in the comfort of first class acceptance while gays fight every day from the corner of second class citizenship. Tell us about your pain, we want to know, but come barging into the room with arrogant demands that sound an awful lot like a straight man asserting his entitlement, about how you're going to fight for your "corner" in the gay community, and you're going to meet a few pissed off gay men. All those years you cowered in the closet, holding on to your wife, your security blanket, and we know damn well some of you were trashing us behind our backs to provide further protection for yourselves, we stood and faced life true to ourselves. That decision you made, for a while, gave you the better end of the bargain; that those days are now long gone and you discovered there's a price to pay for the inauthentic life you chose is not our fault. We were, at no point, the enemy. We are among those you, quite frankly, owe an apology to. That's what some of us believe. We think you fucked up, sold out, gave in, and all those years ago it was a little harder for us because you didn't join us. And now you demand our sympathy because your abdication of what we had the courage to face turned out to be a disappointment. I think you haven't figured out yet that you are not the victim; you are the oppressor -- of your wife, your children, us and even yourselves. You're not the victim of anything other than your own willingness to deceive.

 

[3nipples]

I can see what you mean by people being judgemental, lol, if not downright vitriolic.

People don't always marry for the "right" reasons. We all make mistakes. We usually pay the price. What else is new?

Those of you who suffered their coming out and think they "paid their dues". That was a choice too.

 

[Soilwork]

Perhaps it's certain members of the gay communtiy who prevent them from feeling ready to come out without being judged from every corner.

Yeah... let's tell them that... it's ALWAYS someone else's fault.

Geez, we're back to that "who shit in my pants?" post I made on page one.

If you can't live your own life it's your own fault. Not mine. Start taking a bit of the blame for the mess you're in. I'm not your fucking monkey.

 

[dodo2761]

Yeah... let's tell them that... it's ALWAYS someone else's fault.

Geez, we're back to that "who shit in my pants?" post I made on page one.

If you can't live your own life it's your own fault. Not mine. Start taking a bit of the blame for the mess you're in. I'm not your fucking monkey.

Isnt it just people like you who are prepared to judge and damn without any thought of the effect.
Its about not jumping to conclusions when you dont know about others lives- I appreciate some of us could have made better decisions in the past- but you arent perfect either I would suggest- I at least allow you to have your say without the need to be abusive and offensive.
P.S I thought you had finished commenting in this blog.

 

[NickCole]

I can see what you mean by people being judgemental, lol, if not downright vitriolic.

People don't always marry for the "right" reasons. We all make mistakes. We usually pay the price. What else is new?

There is something especially hurtful and damaging in discovering what we believed was our history, our true life, was from our husband's side a deception. When someone we have loved and been truthful with, opened up to, trusted and believed and been intimate with, tells us that he loved us but not romantically, not the way he'd said, not the way he led us to believe and we did believe, that is a knife to the heart like no other. It rips out from the center of our life, our history, an essential piece of foundation; it's a devastation beyond the usual marital "mistakes." It undoes something fundamental about what we have believed about our lives and ourselves. It is cruel.

Those of you who suffered their coming out and think they "paid their dues". That was a choice too.

Damned right it was.

It was the choice to be forthright and true to ourselves, to live life on our terms rather than terms dictated by a homophobic society.

One way or another, at some point or another, life is tough for everyone. As you say, we pay our dues. And while that's happening, while life offers up its rewards and challenges, our character and our integrity gets defined step by step through our choices.

 

[Soilwork]

Those of you who suffered their coming out and think they "paid their dues". That was a choice too.

Fucking right it was.

A hard one, too.

The right choice is seldom the easy one.

 

[Soilwork]

Isnt it just people like you who are prepared to judge and damn without any thought of the effect.

So it IS my fault that you couldn't come out?

I appreciate some of us could have made better decisions in the past- but you arent perfect either I would suggest-

I've never suggested any different. I've made plenty of mistakes. And I've owned up to every one of them.

Fuck, I wear them as a badge of honour.

 

[1gayguy]

Badges of honor. Yes and that's what I have too, they're just different badges and just as honorable.

 

[Soilwork]

Badges of honor. Yes and that's what I have too, they're just different badges and just as honorable.

how so?

(I'm not disagreeing with you, I just wanna know what you feel your accomplishments are)

 

[dodo2761]

So it IS my fault that you couldn't come out?



I've never suggested any different. I've made plenty of mistakes. And I've owned up to every one of them.

Fuck, I wear them as a badge of honour.

Such a Martyr! A badge of honour so we all know your suffering- but then you have suffered more than anyone.

 

[Soilwork]

Many people have suffered more than me. I've never suggested any different.

But you seemed to suggest in your first post that guys like me have never had to go through anything unpleasant when coming out. And that's just not the case.

Hey man, if you wanna get all defensive when I call you out, it's your thread.

 

[1gayguy]

[(I'm not disagreeing with you, I just wanna know what you feel your accomplishments are)/QUOTE]
hmm accomplishments. Let's see, instilled a sense of morality, personal and civic responsiblity in a child so that she was able to grow up to be a fairly well adjusted adult, for one. Two, assisting aging parents to the point of enabling them to have dignified passings with few worries. Three, acting as a healthcare advocate for my former wife, thereby taking the burden off of her current husband and our daughter, so that she could have a relatively pain and worry free passing. Should I continue?

 

[mpdan]

This is a spirited topic. And this thread started by dodos is positive, and has allowed many to vent both sides of the taboo issue of gay - hetero marriage.

And I believe that dodo started this thread after reading and responding (along with T-zero) to a thread started 2 days ago by a newbie poster who appropriately named himself "Exploring". He originally posted his thread entitled "Wisdom for a first timer" here in the Hot Topics section, and when I read it and realized it involved a married man questioning ways he could move a professional male business relationship to a personal level I asked a moderator to move the thread to the No Flame Coming out and relationships forum. I have an interest in these posts; and I was well aware that the naive Mr. Exploring would end up in Flames.

Let me come at this from a different angle: I'm a former employee of a Gay Campground. And as a former employee of a Gay campground I saw a an amazing cross-section of what makes up the gay population. I didn't participate in everything, but I witnessed enough to make me cringe, and yet laugh out loud. But there is one fetish within the Gay community that I just can't handle - that would be scat play. It sickens me; and just the mention (much less a request to participate) repulses me. Yet I treated all of my customers with dignity and respect - for we were all members of the same Gay team. And this is the reason why one would never find a posting by MPDAN in the fetish forum regarding scat. Curiosity may allow me to read a few lines, but then I normally just move on.....

In the case of Mr. Exploring he had a simple statement: hey, I'm married and I'm fantasizing about a male coworker - watta ya think? Many gave non-judgemental replies, and non-judgemental ideas. But sprinkled within were very judgemental blasts; and while Mr. Exploring never mentioned if he had an understanding with his wife or if he even had children or if his life was a living hell married to the clone of Rosanne Barr, the posts took on a distorted life -like a child's game of telephone tag. They spoke of faithfulness, love, respect of children, and the all time classic "I knew when I was 15 why didn't you know?" When the catcalls became nasty Mr. Exploring made the ultimate mistake on a gay porn chat forum: he made a blanket statement that gays are promiscuous; which in turn (of course ) sent the thread totally off topic.

No doubt Mr. Exploring, like so many married guys who have posted before him has disappeared. And he might be thinking right now with his loins and not his brain - which we are all guilty of at some time or another. Banished to a world where he will have to navigate the troubled waters of coming out on his own - since he is not welcome here. I can predict that if he follows his heart it will be at a price of heartache - but he already found his way to a gay porn chat forum so there really is no going back. He can beat himself up quite nicely on his own, but members of JUB decided to join in the stoning.

What's my point? This is a great "blanket" discussion topic started by dodo, and I learned from it. But if you come across a discussion topic in the No Flame Relationship forum by a married man and you have never been married or in a related relationship - Well, unless you yourself are or you know the spouse herself well then just swear at us under your breath and move onto the next thread.

Thanks. This was the post:http://justusboys.com/forum/showthread.php?t=153219

 

[luminum]

hmm accomplishments. Let's see, instilled a sense of morality, personal and civic responsiblity in a child so that she was able to grow up to be a fairly well adjusted adult, for one. Two, assisting aging parents to the point of enabling them to have dignified passings with few worries. Three, acting as a healthcare advocate for my former wife, thereby taking the burden off of her current husband and our daughter, so that she could have a relatively pain and worry free passing. Should I continue?

I think he meant as in mistakes that one has committed and made right. These are all wonderful accomplishments, but what are the ones that were based out of situations where you made mistakes and then made them right?

Sans judgement and out of curiosity of your life history, I just want to know what your story was with your marriage and child, and coming out, etc? I guess the other thread I linked to would be more appropriate, but here is pretty good, too.

 

[mike_n_herrin]

I remember one of the guys who used to pick on me.. well no.. used to single me out for special torture... one of the ones who I ran into as he trolled a gay bar's back room.

He said "You just don't know how hard it was for me." I think he wanted me to feel sory for him. I just walked away. I probably should have kick the snot out of him.

I don't give a shit how hard it was for him, to be honest. I had bigger problems.

Sorry, I'm not ready to make nice on this one.

so you think every gay married man is like that and so they should all be treated this way? that's moronic in the extreme. it's like saying all gay men are _____ [insert stupid bigoted remark] or all black folks are _____ [insert other stupid bigoted remark], all republicans are ____ [are you getting my point yet?]

 

[Soilwork]

[are you getting my point yet?]

of course.

too bad you didn't get mine.

my point is that I fucking hate hearing men who came out late whining that we don't understand how haaarrrddd it is for them.

It's hard for us all.

Life is pain.

Just because they lack the stones to come out OR they were so out of touch with their own sexual attractions that they didn't "know" they were gay until long after they had a wife, house, car, dog and six kids doesn't mean I have to be extra-special nice to them when they come at me "fighting from their corner" and asking for advice on how to cheat on the Mrs.