To all married or divorced guys. Lets start fighting our corner!

[Elwood]

First of all I am not looking for anyones sympathy!!!! I am just saying do not judge someone before you know their story, because as usual you end up making huge generalizations akin to all gay men are limp wristed and talk with a lisp.

I don't expect anyone to feel sorry for me or to say poor you. Quite the contrary, I want you to be happy for me because I have become a tremendously happier person in the last few years.

However, don't you dare judge me and think you know what went through my head when I was younger. I did not get together with a women because I was scared to say I was gay or come out of the closet! That's just fucking silly. As a matter of fact I did not get divorced because I came out, I was in a shitty relationship where I was no longer happy. My getting divorced enabled me ( or forced me) to ponder life and it was then when I looked back on my life and realized I was gay.

Yes I had a boyfriend when I was 17 and after that I just seemed to do what my friends were doing and dated women. Can I say that I loved the women I was in the relationships with?? Yes I can. I am still very good friends with the mother of my children, and yes I am out to her. Did she feel used?? No or at least she has not said so, and she is not the type of person to hold in her feelings.

Since my coming out I have come to realize that life is not so simple, and I have become a lot more accepting of peoples differences.

Do I have any regrets?? Yes I really do wish I would have realized I was gay at a younger age, I would have probably been a happier person in general.


It is all fine and dandy for those of you that realised at an early age that you were gay! But do not go judging me and think that you know all about me because I was married to a women and had kids!! Because again that is just fucking silly!!!

Actually when it comes down to it, you can all think that you know all about me, I really don't give a rats ass. My conscious about my decisions in life is very clear and I live completely guilt free. A very happy gay man who came out later in life

 

[JackFTwist]

Except we DO have an idea.

Now although I still don't "get" how you can not "know" you're gay before marrying age, I do know it happens. (well... I'm told it happens.. I'm still not sure I believe it. I've never heard of someone suddenly finding women attractive at the age of 30. Sounds like a big cop-out to me, but stranger things have happened.)

It sounds like a cop out to you bcause it isn't your experience and thus you reject it as being valid. Your statements are also very myopic. It is not about "someone suddenly finding [ ] attractive." There is not an on/off switch. Real life is far more complicated than the reduce to the absurd that you are doing here. Be happy you had an early knowledge and did not have to grapple with sexual orientation at a latter point in your life, and accept that other persons' experiences may be way different than yours and yet very valid and not deserving of your ridicule.

I certainly have sypathy for that situation, but most of the gay men who got married knew perfectly well what they were doing and did it anyway.

Most? Show me your statistical evidence, Doctor. Some, yes. Many, maybe. Most - you are out of your league if your statistical sample is just gus you know.

However, you're going to get a lot more understanding if you start your thread like that last post instead of starting it with a rant about how nobody knows how hard it is to come out...

Agreed that the thread's origins was off putting. However: one could choose to hear it as a cry of pain and have compassion, rather than be insulted by it. It could have started less confrontational. But that is the human existential pain we heard, not not a calmly contemplated discussion starter, and I accept it as that.

We ALL came out.

Fuck no we haven't. You're out, I'm out, and you know damn well that some/many here have not. That is when you are a hero amongst us for your consistent encouragement to those who still hide or seek to dwell in the closet of death. You speak profound truth to those who will not admit the truth to themselves or others.

But it is my opinion you are notably lacking in your understanding and compassion for those who do not come to the realization until later in life. It happens for many reasons. It is a very panful thing when a wife and children are involved. This has nothing to do with those who hide behind marriage while they play on the side - you have contempt for that and in fact so do I. This is about those self understanding takes a different plane, a different dimension, and a much more tortured journey because of the intimacy of the others involved. And as hard as it is for you believe given your own gift of self knowledge, it is very possible for people to reach their late 20s, their 30s, 40s, or more before that epiphany of all that did not make sense suddenly comes into the point of recognition that changes everything.

 

[Soilwork]

Guess my standards are too high.

To be honest, I still think it's bullshit that guys "didn't know" they were gay until they were 40.

Or at the very least... I think that 100% of men who say they thought they were straight until later in life are liars.

I mean that.

If you don't know you're attracted to men until later, maybe you're just one of those poor fools with virtually no sex drive.

but if that's the case, you weren't attracted to women at ANY age.. so why did you marry one? Love, as I understand it, is about more than just a sharred love of the same kinds of movies (at least the kind of love that leads to marriage, anyway...). I mean Will loved Grace but they didn't get married.

Maybe my standards of what makes a man a man are too high for some to jump over.

If you can't get over my understanding, then move on to someone who has understanding and compassion where I have none. There's plenty of people who'll pat you on the head and tell you that the disasters you've left in your wake aren't REALLY your fault.

 

[Piquechampion]

they have no idea how difficult it is to leave a marital home. the home you have spent years investing in.
The financial loss alone is potentially huge- I lost over £150,000.
the bags on the lawn. Having to sleep in a car.

Yeah, I have two words for ya Prenuptial Agreement

At least I know, that if I ever do marry a woman, that bitch is not throwing me out of the house, thats for sure

 

[JackFTwist]

Guess my standards are too high.

To be honest, I still think it's bullshit that guys "didn't know" they were gay until they were 40.

Or at the very least... I think that 100% of men who say they thought they were straight until later in life are liars.

I mean that.

If you don't know you're attracted to men until later, maybe you're just one of those poor fools with virtually no sex drive.

but if that's the case, you weren't attracted to women at ANY age.. so why did you marry one? Love, as I understand it, is about more than just a sharred love of the same kinds of movies (at least the kind of love that leads to marriage, anyway...). I mean Will loved Grace but they didn't get married.

Maybe my standards of what makes a man a man are too high for some to jump over.

If you can't get over my understanding, then move on to someone who has understanding and compassion where I have none. There's plenty of people who'll pat you on the head and tell you that the disasters you've left in your wake aren't REALLY your fault.

La di da, your standard are so high.

Your view of reality is so god damned simplistic I have to believe that you are in fact the gay son of Ronald Reagan - or George Bush - others famous for seeing things as they see them and no other possibilites allowed. Your openess to the realities of others is positively Cheney like.

 

[Soilwork]

La di da, your standard are so high.

Your view of reality is so god damned simplistic I have to believe that you are in fact the gay son of Ronald Reagan - or George Bush - others famous for seeing things as they see them and no other possibilites allowed. Your openess to the realities of others is positively Cheney like.

meh.

It's worked for me thus far.

To be honest, every time I've cross-examined someone who tells me that they "didn't know" they were gay until later in life.. they all admit that "I guess I kinda knew, but I wasn't ready for it."

Speaks of weakness to me, but maybe I'm just too sure-fire for my own good.

Either way, I dont' buy it.

 

[NickCole]

Life can be very hard.

It's harder when we make bad decisions.

There are times in everyone's life that deceiving others, and sometimes ourselves, seems easier than being forthright. If you've deceived people and it comes back to bite you on the ass, it's pretty nervy to go crying for sympathy from the people who've had to live with the hardships of being forthright all these years while you lived with the perks of your deception.

I'm 50 years old. I remember homosexuals who married out of high school, in college, in the years that followed. I kept their secrets (you think I didn't know?!), went to their weddings, brought them gifts, congratulated them on their babies and their houses, I drank cocktails with them and their wives while they showed me pictures of their families and told me about all their promotions and the neat stuff that comes from being straight and married with a family. I remember having to switch careers because being an out gay with a boyfriend in the late 1970s wasn't allowed in the banking industry -- not if you wanted to get the same benefits and promotions and raises that Joe America with a wife and kids got. I remember how they dismissed me and my out friends, our careers in theatre and design and the few other industries where you could be out and prosper, and how AIDS wasn't important because it didn't touch their nice little lying lives and wouldn't we please be respectful and stop talking about it. So now it turns out that lying all those years made you unhappy. Well if you're disappointed you have only yourself to thank.

Life can be very hard.

You know what you should do? You should say thank you to all of us who've been out all these years. Thank you for having the courage to come out when it meant sacrificing friends and careers, when it meant being the one all the "straight" people whispered about at family events -- that's if we weren't being berated or maligned or denigrated or dismissed or disinherited or thrown out to the street or beat up. You could come here and say thank you for not outing us, for taking the heat and living openly so that bit by bit our society could get used to out gays and make it easier to live that way. Thank you for fighting for anti-discrimination laws for gays in jobs and housing so we're protected today, thank you for fighting for AIDS money and research and education when closet cases shrank from it. Thank you for being the only one in the whole firm to put a picture of his gay partner on his desk and deal with the Post-its that showed up on the picture with sweet messages like "Faggot" -- thank you because that paved the way for other gay men to put pictures of their boyfriends on their desks and talk openly about them. Come on to this forum of gay men and say thank you and I'm ready now to join you. I'm sorry I'm late. And you know what? You'd be received with open arms even though you have spent the past many years betraying us along with your wives and children.

Life can be very hard but most gay men I've known can be very forgiving.

 

[Soilwork]

Nick, there are few posts here that have moved me to tears.

That one did.

I'm not ashamed to say it.

you're right... every time I got called "faggot" or attacked in high school, the closeted gay ones stood there too chicken shit to do anything.

When I got maligned or bad-mouthed in college, they stood there silent - or worse - took part.

When I would speak to human sexuality classes about my struggle and had students tell me "In my country, we'd hang you and burn your body in the town square," I'd take it and you'd look down at your desk. Don't think I didn't see you.

When I marched to get equal rights for gays and lesbians at the age of 18 and you sat at home laughing at me with your friends, I didn't mind. I knew the real score.

When I was the only out gay man in management for a chain of video retail stores and got whispered about, passed up for promotions I deserved or laid off first when the time came for cut-backs, I faced that alone.

I'll welcome men to the outside of the closet, but don't ask ME to feel sorry for YOU. I've never asked anyone to feel sorry for me and I won't.

My grandfather always told me that "life isn't fair. Just take it as it comes."

He's a wise man.

 

[1gayguy]

Jas, sometimes I just don't know how to take you. You can be very sensitive and empathetic to others at times and then other times you can be one cold hearted bitch.
Dodo hasn't given his whole story here so for anyone of us to pass judgment on him is just wrong, simply.
We all have our reasons (or excuses as you like to call some of them) for the paths we've traveled but to each one who has made their choices have done so for their reality, whether you see it their way or not.
I was married in my youth and never stepped out of the vows I took. After our divorce, I made sure I was there for my daughter and her mother every step of the way. Never did I abandon my responsibilities to them.
For you to come along with your narrow ideals and broadstrokes of opinion based on a unknown number of experiences and doubt the sincerity, morality and masulinity of gay men who were formally married to women is just wrong. There are far more of us out here than you may want to believe. Hell I've lived with one for the past 11 years. Between us we know at least one other gay man each,who was married to a woman. Both are exemplary men by anyone's standards. So just in our little corner of the world there are four of us who have found each other without looking. Kind of says to me that there are tons more.
In my years here I've come to know bits and pieces of your story and am sometimes amazed at how well you've turned out. Since you've met your man I've also notice a softening of your persona. I like it and I have always liked you.
But once again without knowing Dodo's whole story or his reasons none of us have room to judge.

 

[Elwood]

Life can be very hard.

It's harder when we make bad decisions.

There are times in everyone's life that deceiving others, and sometimes ourselves, seems easier than being forthright. If you've deceived people and it comes back to bite you on the ass, it's pretty nervy to go crying for sympathy from the people who've had to live with the hardships of being forthright all these years while you lived with the perks of your deception.

I'm 50 years old. I remember homosexuals who married out of high school, in college, in the years that followed. I kept their secrets (you think I didn't know?!), went to their weddings, brought them gifts, congratulated them on their babies and their houses, I drank cocktails with them and their wives while they showed me pictures of their families and told me about all their promotions and the neat stuff that comes from being straight and married with a family. I remember having to switch careers because being an out gay with a boyfriend in the late 1970s wasn't allowed in the banking industry -- not if you wanted to get the same benefits and promotions and raises that Joe America with a wife and kids got. I remember how they dismissed me and my out friends, our careers in theatre and design and the few other industries where you could be out and prosper, and how AIDS wasn't important because it didn't touch their nice little lying lives and wouldn't we please be respectful and stop talking about it. So now it turns out that lying all those years made you unhappy. Well if you're disappointed you have only yourself to thank.

Life can be very hard.

You know what you should do? You should say thank you to all of us who've been out all these years. Thank you for having the courage to come out when it meant sacrificing friends and careers, when it meant being the one all the "straight" people whispered about at family events -- that's if we weren't being berated or maligned or denigrated or dismissed or beat up. You could come here and say thank you for not outing us. Thank you for fighting for anti-discrimination laws for gays in jobs and housing so we're protected today, thank you for fighting for AIDS money and research and education when closet cases shrank from it. Thank you for being the only one in the whole firm to put a picture of his gay partner on his desk and deal with the Post-its that showed up on the picture with sweet messages like "Faggot" -- thank you because that paved the way for other gay men to put pictures of their boyfriends on their desks. Come on to this forum of gay men and say thank you and I'm ready now to join you. I'm sorry I'm late. And you know what? You'd be received with open arms even though you have spent the past many years betraying us along with your wives and children.

Life can be very hard but most gay men I've known can be very forgiving.

But that apply's to any man in the closet. It is not only married guys in the closet.

And you know what I do thank you, and others who have lived an out and proud life,
that helped make it easier for people like me to finally accept me being me.

I just don't like the huge generalizations going on. Not all men who married women, were being deceptive to themselves or to their spouses.

 

[Soilwork]

In my years here I've come to know bits and pieces of your story and am sometimes amazed at how well you've turned out. Since you've met your man I've also notice a softening of your persona. I like it and I have always liked you.
But once again without knowing Dodo's whole story or his reasons none of us have room to judge.

Read Nick's post. Twice. I'm still kinda misted up over it. It sums up exactly how I feel about closeted men. My distain for them.

I'd love to write something like that, but I'm just not that articulate, I'm afraid.

I do have the right to judge and I'll judge all I fucking want, thanks.

He thinks he went through hell? He doesn't know the definition.

But I've never begged for acceptance here or forgiveness or understanding. Nor will I. I don't think I have anything to be forgiven for. This world turned me into the guy I am out of necessity. Life's hard.

 

[Piquechampion]

you're right... every time I got called "faggot" or attacked in high school, the closeted gay ones stood there too chicken shit to do anything.

When I got maligned or bad-mouthed in college, they stood there silent - or worse - took part.

You struck a cord in me man

I admit that for me to not being the one who got crap at highshool, I participated in the gay bashing of others. And I´m sorry and ashamed

 

[Soilwork]

I'm not going to try to ask for sypathy from anyone.

I turned out pretty well becuase of the hard exterior I got growning up.

But just a small peek into the world that was Jasun..

I used to go to bed every night terrified that I'd die in my sleep.

See, the guys at school would tell me they knew where I lived and that they were going to burn my house down while my family slept. They'd nail my cat to the wall and they'd rig my Dad's car to blow up.

They would threaten to torture me to death in very descriptive langage... often the scenario was that I'd be tortured for hours and left to freeze to death while tied to a fense post in the country. Sound familiar?

I've run into a few of the perpetrators of these threats later in life... at gay bars or worse.. coming out of bath houses. They admit that they allowed my torture to go on because they were scared of what might happen to them if they spoke up.

And then they acted like I'm the one who should feel bad for them...

Fuck them all.

Men in the closet can suck it, if you ask me. I lost a lot more than $300 grand in the deal. Don't give me whining or shit about not being able to cope. I'm not in the listening mood.

 

[1gayguy]

I do thank the one's that came before me. I apreciate all their efforts and sacrifices, blood, sweat and tears that were shed before. I always have.
I also know what I went through in my life. In my selfish little corner of the world. I know that at one point I had to work three jobs to support my ex and my daughter when my ex chose not to work or chose to work beneath her means because she didn't feel like putting out the effort. I was there for my daughter on Mother's Day when her mother felt it was more important to go to Bike weekend rather than be with her daughter. So yeah, Life isn't fair, life is hard, we get it. While you were marching and speaking out I was busy raising a child and hoping that she'd come out to respect all people for who and what they are. So that maybe her voice amongst her peers would stand out when she defends people like us, which she does every chance she gets. I am very proud of what I've accomplished in my life and I get tired of having to defend it to narrow focused people. I will not be judged by someone who hasn't lived my life, lived my circumstances, shared in my accomplishments or my defeats.
I am a an out and proud, formerly mariied to a woman, father, grandfather gay man who will not be put down because I didn't come out in my later teens. I do thank my brothren who came before me, who because of their sacrifices allow me to be the man I am today.

 

[Piquechampion]

But just a small peek into the world that was Jasun..

I used to go to bed every night terrified that I'd die in my sleep.

See, the guys at school would tell me they knew where I lived and that they were going to burn my house down while my family slept. They'd nail my cat to the wall and they'd rig my Dad's car to blow up.

They would threaten to torture me to death in very descriptive langage... often the scenario was that I'd be tortured for hours and left to freeze to death while tied to a fense post in the country. Sound familiar?

.

Oh God, and that´s Canada????

Makes me grateful for my own homophobic little country. Back there is never that bad.

 

[mike_n_herrin]

life is not the black and white picture so many people would have us believe. it's a gradient, a continuum, or what ever you want to say, except to say there is only one of two choices to make. I agree with the rant in this thread to some extent. I have repeatedly seen people attack those here who are married or were married. it's wrong, unfair, and personal attacks or general attacks like that are against the TOS. if similar comments were made about another group of folks would it be tolerated?

much like it's no one else's right to judge our lives as gay men, it's also not our right to judge someone else's lives (i.e., those who believe they are gay now but are still married). ending a relationship isn't always easy...unless your just a prick who doesn't care about other people's lives. so ending something that has lasted for years isn't always going to be the "right" decision. i also take exception to the belief that being in a marriage will have completely ruined everyone's lives that were involved in it. that's just stupid to say. while likely true in some cases, it's not going to be true in all of them. it's completely idiotic and naive to believe it's that simple. only someone completely absorbed in their own little world would believe that.

This is about fuck-tards who seem to think that it's ok to use people because we're too chicken shit to be who we are. "

wow you almost made it without calling people names. i'm almost amazed. at.

 

[luminum]

You know, getting married if you thought you were in love or because you were pressured doesn't invalidate the accomplishments that come from it, like children you've raised. But as many of you probably already know first-hand since you ended your marriages for one reason or another, it's better that the marriage itself ended.

Perhaps the arguments here are comign from Soil's posts about not getting yourself in the position in the first place, but it seems to me that the main criticism of men still in inapprpriate marriages is that they should do what's right by them and their kids or wives and let the truth out. Beyond doing that, everythign else seems peachy keen.

Like Nick said, if you've come out and dropped any facades, you'll always be welcome. If you haven't, you still won't be hated. But you won't be spared any ciriticism that you should do what's right.

No one's going to ostracize you (at least, I would hope) because you were married when you were confused, or if you were really in love, or if you were just using someone, nor will they ostracize you because you have kids. The big step was making the tough and necessary step of ending soemthing that just wasn't working anymore. That alone deserves some respect for its bravery and integrity.

 

[Soilwork]

much like it's no one else's right to judge our lives as gay men, it's also not our right to judge someone else's lives (i.e., those who believe they are gay now but are still married).

I remember one of the guys who used to pick on me.. well no.. used to single me out for special torture... one of the ones who I ran into as he trolled a gay bar's back room.

He said "You just don't know how hard it was for me." I think he wanted me to feel sory for him. I just walked away. I probably should have kick the snot out of him.

I don't give a shit how hard it was for him, to be honest. I had bigger problems.

Sorry, I'm not ready to make nice on this one.

 

[Elwood]

You know, getting married if you thought you were in love or because you were pressured doesn't invalidate the accomplishments that come from it, like children you've raised. But as many of you probably already know first-hand since you ended your marriages for one reason or another, it's better that the marriage itself ended.

Perhaps the arguments here are comign from Soil's posts about not getting yourself in the position in the first place, but it seems to me that the main criticism of men still in inapprpriate marriages is that they should do what's right by them and their kids or wives and let the truth out. Beyond doing that, everythign else seems peachy keen.

Like Nick said, if you've come out and dropped any facades, you'll always be welcome. If you haven't, you still won't be hated. But you won't be spared any ciriticism that you should do what's right.

No one's going to ostracize you (at least, I would hope) because you were married when you were confused, or if you were really in love, or if you were just using someone, nor will they ostracize you because you have kids. The big step was making the tough and necessary step of ending soemthing that just wasn't working anymore. That alone deserves some respect for its bravery and integrity.

Very well said!
Like I said in my original post I have received nothing but positive reenforcement from the gay men, young and old ,that I have met in the last 3 years. I think it is easy to generalize on the internet. I would only hope that attitudes would change if you were to meet and befriend a ex-married guy and see that he doesn't actually meet the criteria that you have set out for him.

 

[Christopher123]

You know what you should do? You should say thank you to all of us who've been out all these years. Thank you for having the courage to come out when it meant sacrificing friends and careers, when it meant being the one all the "straight" people whispered about at family events -- that's if we weren't being berated or maligned or denigrated or dismissed or disinherited or thrown out to the street or beat up.

Boy oh boy, can I relate to this (and the rest of it as well). My father disowned me, my sister 'tolerates' me, although she doesn't approve of my "lifestyle" and most of my family just ignores me. Except, of course, for my brother, who has been with me through this whole thing since I first came out to him at the age of 15. In fact he was the FIRST person I came out to. And I was terrified. But at the same time I knew he'd love me anyway.

And he did. And still does. I love my brother more than anyone else on the face of this earth.

When I came out to everyone, yeah, I lost a few friends. Males, of course, that didn't want their 'reputation' ruined by hanging out with a fag (my apologies to those who hate that term, as I hate it as well, but that's what the homophobes call us).

"Oh dear! If everyone finds out I've been hanging out with Chris, they'll think I'm gay, too!"

Whatever. Shit happens and life moves on.

However, on the flipside, I currently have a friend going through a divorce because he admitted he's thought about men most of his life but has never told anyone until now. Mostly because he was afraid to admit something so taboo. Okay, maybe he has ruined some lives. But whatever, it's fucking done and he did it because he assumed it's what was expected of him. He was terrified of admitting he was gay and married a woman not only because he thought he could 'correct' himself, but because his family is very religious and homosexuality is an abomination.

Yeah, it would have taken more courage for him to say, "Look, man, I'm as gay as a 2-dollar bill and if ya don't like it, tough shit."

True. That would have taken more courage. And LOTS of gay men only dream of being able to do that. But he took a different way out. He chose to marry a woman and "turn himself around" and do what was expected of him by his family. I don't know why that should matter so much. I mean, even my brother told me, when I came out to him, he said, "Chris, you be who you are and you be proud of who you are and if your friends turn you away, then hey, guess what? They weren't that good of friends in the first damn place."

And he was right. He was damn right. The friends that turned their backs on me, I simply dealt with it and life moved on. Because I've got really good friends now who love me for who and what I am. Not for who they think I should be. My friends love me, my roommates love me, my co-workers love me and, most importantly, I love myself. And I'll tell ya, it took a lot of working through many of my own issues to come to that. Because I hated myself for many years. But I AM fucking worth something and I *DO* matter. And a very close friend that I made right here on JUB took part in helping me to realize that.

sidenote to you: and I love ya.

I apologize for rambling on, I may not have made much sense, but I'm just throwing thoughts out there. My friend who is going through this same exact thing, I honestly try and understand him. As much as I can understand. He was my friend before we knew he was gay and he's my friend after we knew he was gay and I'm not turning my back on him just because I feel he "fucked up" and ruined lives. Yes, I have total sympathy for his wife. The man she wanted to spend her life with is more interested in sleeping with men than he is her. So yeah, that's gotta hurt. A lot. But just as my friends who turned me away after coming out to them were "fairweathered" (and to this day I still don't really hold it against them because people are simply afraid of what they don't understand) I can't be the same way and turn MY friend away because he was afraid to come out years ago when he probably should have.

Sorry for the long rant. But anyway, there are some of my thoughts.