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Ukraine in Revolution

An excellent overview of the problems now faced by the US and the West in response to Russia intervention in Crimea by drawing similarities to the difficulties George Bush 2 faced when the Russians moved into Georgia.

WASHINGTON — President Obama has warned Russia that “there will be costs” for a military intervention in Ukraine. But the United States has few palatable options for imposing such costs, and recent history has shown that when it considers its interests at stake, Russia has been willing to absorb any such fallout.

Even before President Vladimir V. Putin on Saturday made his first public gesture toward ordering Russian troops into the Ukrainian territory of Crimea, Mr. Obama and his team were already discussing how to respond. They talked about canceling the president’s trip to a summit meeting in Russia in June, shelving a possible trade agreement, kicking Moscow out of the Group of 8 or moving American warships to the region.

That is the same menu of actions that was offered to President George W. Bush in 2008 when Russia went to war with Georgia, another balky former Soviet republic. Yet the costs imposed at that time proved only marginally effective and short-lived. Russia stopped its advance but nearly six years later has never fully lived up to the terms of the cease-fire it signed. And whatever penalty it paid at the time evidently has not deterred it from again muscling a neighbor.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/02/w...lick&contentCollection=Home Page&pgtype=Blogs
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Highly recommended.

As the article concludes, Putin "has time on his side."
 
I Think that it hits the points totally. Excellent.

And Russia only has to wait for the Ukraine to Balkanize and then pick up the pieces it wants.


And the West will be totally powerless to stop it, although I'm sure that Springer and McCain want to drop the bomb.
 
If people have a right to self determination, what do people in Ukraine want? What do people in the Crimea want?

And who wants to go to war to support or deny them?

I don't care how many portentous references are made to WW2, we have to decide based on what is happening NOW, not be pushed into things because of "if Only's."
 
And Sarah Palin weighs in - but she was probably not alone.

And again from the right. Sarah Palin feels vindicated as she posts on facebook.

"Yes, I could see this one from Alaska. I’m usually not one to Told-Ya-So, but I did, despite my accurate prediction being derided as “an extremely far-fetched scenario” by the “high-brow” Foreign Policy magazine. Here’s what this “stupid” “insipid woman” predicted back in 2008: “After the Russian Army invaded the nation of Georgia, Senator Obama’s reaction was one of indecision and moral equivalence, the kind of response that would only encourage Russia’s Putin to invade Ukraine next.”

theguardian.com live blog
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I think we are going to have to make up a new law akin to Godwin's Law. We'll call it Palbert's Law, under which anyone bringing up Sarah "Hockey Mom" Palin is immediately guilty and has forfeited the argument.

I do find it funny though that apparently it was SENATOR Obama's reactions that encouraged Putin and not PRESIDENT Bush's.
 
TX-Beau said:
I think we are going to have to make up a new law akin to Godwin's Law. We'll call it Palbert's Law, under which anyone bringing up Sarah "Hockey Mom" Palin is immediately guilty and has forfeited the argument.
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YAY, a "Law" named after little old me!
 
You're welcome. BTW where is Rolyo? Isn't Bulgaria like two countries over? Get him in here to speak for everyone in the region!!!!
 
Neither the US nor Russia really car what the people of Ukraine want. Russia is interested in reclaiming all its former empire, and the US is interested in keeping Russia from replaying the old superpower game. Both sides have made promises they had no intention of keeping, and both sides can use the promises the other side broke as their excuses for breaking theirs.

And Europe, as has been the case since before the US even existed, can't really conceive that they need to act assertively in order to protect themselves, because it's never really sunk in that they aren't untouchable. Of course in this case, Russia has Europe by the throat, because they control Europe's energy supply.
 
I sense even more fracking in our future.
 
TX-Beau said:
If people have a right to self determination, what do people in Ukraine want? What do people in the Crimea want?

And who wants to go to war to support or deny them?

I don't care how many portentous references are made to WW2, we have to decide based on what is happening NOW, not be pushed into things because of "if Only's."
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Well, that's kind of the whole Cold War, isn't it? Both sides funnelling money to different factions who each say about the other "Please, come help save us from the Americans/the Soviets..."

That's why that propaganda piece floating around should be treated with suspicion, even though people act like "well what's the big deal, there's propaganda all the time every way."
 
TX-Beau said:
You're welcome. BTW where is Rolyo? Isn't Bulgaria like two countries over? Get him in here to speak for everyone in the region!!!!
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He's ahem... "busy." :) I'll tell him he was summoned, though.

Kulindahr said:
Except he won't -- he'll rebuild a Tsarist system, not a Party one.
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(When I first read Kulindahr's response, I thought he was talking about Rolyo... lol)
 
No, the cold war propaganda was window dressing over the fact that the Warsaw pact was forcing participation on a bunch of people who didn't want to be in it. Look how fast it crumbled and the clamoring on Nato's door when it did.

Not that people in Nato's sphere of influence had much choice either, but at least the perks were better, and the partners were a lot more equal.

If what we're seeing about Ukraine is accurate, half that country actually wants Russian intervention, so maybe partition isn't such a bad idea.

The cold war was far more about proxy wars in third party living rooms. There seems to be an actual divide in Ukraine.
 
I still think it's presumptuous of us to pretend we have the right to decide for them.
 
xbuzzerx said:
He's ahem... "busy." :) I'll tell him he was summoned, though.



(When I first read Kulindahr's response, I thought he was talking about Rolyo... lol)
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Tell him to spit out that penis and come account for Ukraine.
 
TX-Beau said:
I think we are going to have to make up a new law akin to Godwin's Law. We'll call it Palbert's Law, under which anyone bringing up Sarah "Hockey Mom" Palin is immediately guilty and has forfeited the argument.

I do find it funny though that apparently it was SENATOR Obama's reactions that encouraged Putin and not PRESIDENT Bush's.
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Hard to escape the truth in that she was right.

Palin and Obama were on opposing tickets at the time during the 2008 election.
 
Jack Springer said:
Hard to escape the truth in that she was right.

Palin and Obama were on opposing tickets at the time during the 2008 election.
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She was right in a "broken clock" kinda way, as she claimed it would happen six years ago... Also, it still hasn't happened...

- - - Updated - - -

Kulindahr said:
Should we all hold hands and hum while you do the summoning? :p
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You could have just made it rain on me. A girl's gotta eat, I ain't showing my boobs for free!
 
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