BENGHAZI rears its head, via Tweets from Senator Lindsey Graham
We knew this was going to happen!
We knew this was going to happen!
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Ukraine in Revolution
- Thread starter Alnitak
- Start date
darden
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I feel like you can definitely draw a clear line from Obama's red-ish line in Syria to what's now going on in Ukraine... but the line goes all the way back to include GWB (and the world at large) giving Russia a pass for the Georgian invasion in August 2008.
there's really no great answers... after Iraq/Afghanistan, Americans haven't been this war-weary since Vietnam and European leaders are seemingly disinterested in doing anything about the problems in their own backyard either.
there's really no great answers... after Iraq/Afghanistan, Americans haven't been this war-weary since Vietnam and European leaders are seemingly disinterested in doing anything about the problems in their own backyard either.
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May I suggest reading news instead of select liberal commentary.
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Whatever happened to CowboyBob?
Your mind is living in a liberal world right now I don't expect you to understand.
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BRIDGEGAZI
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Google is your friend. Are you that lazy? LOL
FYI Sarah Palin predicted this move by Putin during the 2008 election campaign.
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Sarah Palin's prediction:
I heard someone say on the radio today (don't recall whom) that Putin is playing Chess while Obama is shooting marbles.
Putin is making is move because he knows he can get away with it. Especially after Obama has quite effectively emasculated the power and reputation of the USA.
I heard someone say on the radio today (don't recall whom) that Putin is playing Chess while Obama is shooting marbles.
Putin is making is move because he knows he can get away with it. Especially after Obama has quite effectively emasculated the power and reputation of the USA.
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His point is a decent one, but dragging Benghazi into it kills his credibility.
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What does that have to do with the custom of the forum to document points?
BTW, I get my news from BBC America and Reuters, plus occasionally US News and World Report.
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I don't know. It's sad that your counterpart in irrationality disappeared, though -- watching you two go at it was entertaining.
That you can call my positions "liberal" merely shows the depth of your fallacious thinking.
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Measured by the forum rules, you're the one being lazy. Again.
Sarah Palin probably got her ideas from Tom Clancy.
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After a couple of hours of reading Russian history today, I had a silly idea: Russia should declare war on the Ukraine, then surrender, and united the two countries by moving the capital to Kiev. After all, Kiev was the original Russia state.
opinterph
The other side of fear is freedom.
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I haven't watched the whole documentary yet, but she has a point -- Obama has been more Bush than Bush, using our military to run around killing people, and putting pressure on other governments to help do it.
But I ran across something interesting today, that puts the while situation in a different light:
Putin may not be living in the same reality as the rest of us any more. If not, we may not get the expected responses to any possible actions.
But I ran across something interesting today, that puts the while situation in a different light:
Putin may not be living in the same reality as the rest of us any more. If not, we may not get the expected responses to any possible actions.
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And you're missing the point. Yet again. LOL
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The point is that it's your responsibility to post a link for claims you've made.
kallipolis
Know thyself
That the German, and British foreign secretaries have visited Kiev, and held discussions with the Ukranian leadership would suggest otherwise.
Russia supplies gas to very many countries in Europe...with Winter still a fact of life here, no one wants their gas supplied interrupted.
An over reaction to Russia's sabre rattling will assist no one including, the Ukranians.
Tengilethos
Slut
Wow, to read the posts here is quite disheartening.
Let's imagine an alternate world:
In 1918, the United States, Canada and Mexico unite to form the American Soviet Union (ASU from now) under the leadership of dictator Woodrow Wilson, to counter the French Empire that conquered Europe. Then, in 1954, ASU dictator Truman transferred New England from the US-Soviet Republic to the Canadian Soviet Republic, for reasons nobody understands. Imagine also, that Norfolk is in New England and is not only the biggest Atlantic military port, but the ONLY Atlantic military port. Now imagine that the ASU dissolves in 1990, with New England remaining part of the newly independent Canada, but with a long-term lease for the Norfolk military base.
And now, in 2014, the pro US Canadian president is overthrown by mass protests in Quebec, and the new Canadian government wants closer military, economic and political ties with the French Empire, over strong opposition from the people of New England, who see themselves as (US-)Americans first. The new interim parliament also passes a law that would outlaw teaching English at school and made French the sole language of Canada, but the interim president wisely vetoes this law. And imagine that the interim government grumbles about terminating the Norfolk lease, thus depriving the USA of it's only Atlantic port.
A United States that invades other countries over alleged weapons of mass destruction would invade/liberate New England about as fast as Putin invaded the Crimea. And this analogy is pretty close to the reality. The Ukraine did not control the Crimea since the 11th century, when the Mongols invaded Kievan Rus, razed Kiev and settled Sunni Tatars (a Mongol people) in the Crimea. Later the Crimea would be part of it's own Khanate, becoming part of the Ottoman Empire even later, until the Russian Empire conquered it in the early 19th century. The Crimea became part of the Ukraine Soviet Republic in 1954, when Khrushchev transferred from the Russian Soviet Republic for seemingly no goo reason.
It is not unlikely that the planned referendum over Crimean independence would have passed without Putin intervening. Of course now any such outcome is suspect, but what Putin is doing is actually pretty sensible in the view of Russian self defense.
And of course saying that PUTIN is the cold warrior here is quite something. During the fall of the Soviet Union there were several agreements between the West and Russia. For some concessions like allowing Germany to reunite and become part of NATO, the Alliance promised the Russian not to expand eastwards into Russian borders. Here we are 20 years later, with nearly all former Warsaw pact members being part of NATO, even the former Soviet republics of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania are members of the Alliance. President Bush opened new many new military bases around Russia, and Dick Cheney had plans not only to wholly crush Russian influence outside Russian borders, but he even wanted to dismantle Russia itself.
Russia is rightfully feeling threatened, and that logical actions like securing it's much shrunken sphere of influence are seen as Russia restarting the cold war is quite something. Especially from a country which had the Monroe doctrine, which declared the whole Americas as the US sphere of influence. Russia by contrasts only seeks to retain it's influence over their border countries.
Now I am certainly not in favor of what Putin did, but the hypocrisy of some people is sickening. And Putin is not making this move because Obama somehow makes America look weak, he is doing it because he sees vital Russian security interests in danger, in the face of an ever expanding Western influence.
And to answer insipid posts about Europe not caring enough or Putin having the EU by it's throat: Over 40% of Russian trade is with the EU. If the EU and Russia stopped trading with each other, the Russian economy would collapse, and the EU states would suffer mightily, although the Greeks would be much less able to pay rising energy prices than say the Swedes. It is mutually assured destruction, Russia is as dependent on trade with the EU as the EU is dependent on Russian oil and gas.
And of course the neocons are screaming to do something, but I cannot see what should be done. The US can suspend trade with Russia, with Russia accounting for 2% of US trade. But the EU cannot do that, the same that the US cannot stop trade with China without crashing it's own economy. Making the Ukraine a battlefield will end worse for the Ukrainians than simply letting Russia take the Crimea. It will not set a precedent, since the only other non-Nato members in Russia's vicinity are Belarus (good riddance!) and Finland (look up the Winter War for why Russia is unlikely to try to invade Finland again), which means any further expansion would lead to a war nobody wants, including Putin.
Diplomacy is the best course of action, and it should be noted that Russia has not yet annexed the Crimean Peninsula.
Let's imagine an alternate world:
In 1918, the United States, Canada and Mexico unite to form the American Soviet Union (ASU from now) under the leadership of dictator Woodrow Wilson, to counter the French Empire that conquered Europe. Then, in 1954, ASU dictator Truman transferred New England from the US-Soviet Republic to the Canadian Soviet Republic, for reasons nobody understands. Imagine also, that Norfolk is in New England and is not only the biggest Atlantic military port, but the ONLY Atlantic military port. Now imagine that the ASU dissolves in 1990, with New England remaining part of the newly independent Canada, but with a long-term lease for the Norfolk military base.
And now, in 2014, the pro US Canadian president is overthrown by mass protests in Quebec, and the new Canadian government wants closer military, economic and political ties with the French Empire, over strong opposition from the people of New England, who see themselves as (US-)Americans first. The new interim parliament also passes a law that would outlaw teaching English at school and made French the sole language of Canada, but the interim president wisely vetoes this law. And imagine that the interim government grumbles about terminating the Norfolk lease, thus depriving the USA of it's only Atlantic port.
A United States that invades other countries over alleged weapons of mass destruction would invade/liberate New England about as fast as Putin invaded the Crimea. And this analogy is pretty close to the reality. The Ukraine did not control the Crimea since the 11th century, when the Mongols invaded Kievan Rus, razed Kiev and settled Sunni Tatars (a Mongol people) in the Crimea. Later the Crimea would be part of it's own Khanate, becoming part of the Ottoman Empire even later, until the Russian Empire conquered it in the early 19th century. The Crimea became part of the Ukraine Soviet Republic in 1954, when Khrushchev transferred from the Russian Soviet Republic for seemingly no goo reason.
It is not unlikely that the planned referendum over Crimean independence would have passed without Putin intervening. Of course now any such outcome is suspect, but what Putin is doing is actually pretty sensible in the view of Russian self defense.
And of course saying that PUTIN is the cold warrior here is quite something. During the fall of the Soviet Union there were several agreements between the West and Russia. For some concessions like allowing Germany to reunite and become part of NATO, the Alliance promised the Russian not to expand eastwards into Russian borders. Here we are 20 years later, with nearly all former Warsaw pact members being part of NATO, even the former Soviet republics of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania are members of the Alliance. President Bush opened new many new military bases around Russia, and Dick Cheney had plans not only to wholly crush Russian influence outside Russian borders, but he even wanted to dismantle Russia itself.
Russia is rightfully feeling threatened, and that logical actions like securing it's much shrunken sphere of influence are seen as Russia restarting the cold war is quite something. Especially from a country which had the Monroe doctrine, which declared the whole Americas as the US sphere of influence. Russia by contrasts only seeks to retain it's influence over their border countries.
Now I am certainly not in favor of what Putin did, but the hypocrisy of some people is sickening. And Putin is not making this move because Obama somehow makes America look weak, he is doing it because he sees vital Russian security interests in danger, in the face of an ever expanding Western influence.
And to answer insipid posts about Europe not caring enough or Putin having the EU by it's throat: Over 40% of Russian trade is with the EU. If the EU and Russia stopped trading with each other, the Russian economy would collapse, and the EU states would suffer mightily, although the Greeks would be much less able to pay rising energy prices than say the Swedes. It is mutually assured destruction, Russia is as dependent on trade with the EU as the EU is dependent on Russian oil and gas.
And of course the neocons are screaming to do something, but I cannot see what should be done. The US can suspend trade with Russia, with Russia accounting for 2% of US trade. But the EU cannot do that, the same that the US cannot stop trade with China without crashing it's own economy. Making the Ukraine a battlefield will end worse for the Ukrainians than simply letting Russia take the Crimea. It will not set a precedent, since the only other non-Nato members in Russia's vicinity are Belarus (good riddance!) and Finland (look up the Winter War for why Russia is unlikely to try to invade Finland again), which means any further expansion would lead to a war nobody wants, including Putin.
Diplomacy is the best course of action, and it should be noted that Russia has not yet annexed the Crimean Peninsula.
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A couple of hours, huh. I'm guessing in your mind that you've qualified yourself for a doctorate in Russian Studies.
xbuzzerx
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A couple of hours spent on the subject would make him better qualified than the woman your party ran for Vice-President.
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Palin correctly predicted what would happen if Obama was elected President.
... I'm guessing you still believe that Palin said 'I can see Russia from my kitchen window.' Better check SNL.