Undying love for my best friend...please read(long

[RicanDAB]

Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

That's an interesting observation re: Andy and his curiosity with gay relationships. Maybe if he sees that it can be more beautiful than the relationship he his having with his finacee and that it is not just about sex ... who knows??

 

[Kulindahr]

Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

That's a difference even a lot of gay guys don't understand. I know my body wants to wrap itself around another guy, but I can't tell which way my heart or emotions want to go ultimately. I think I've been too hurt to know where love could lie, or if I even can.

I wonder how Andy would define "love".

 

[LostVegas]

Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

That's a difference even a lot of gay guys don't understand. I know my body wants to wrap itself around another guy, but I can't tell which way my heart or emotions want to go ultimately. I think I've been too hurt to know where love could lie, or if I even can.

Kul-care to explain more of what you meant by that?? Just a little curious.

Andy called me last night and said he was so heartbroken and he had anxiety. He asked if I could "walk" with him if he goes outside. I said sure..and we spent time talking about the usual stuff.

I asked him why?...why is he missing me so bad that he feels he cant move on with hislife???

And he just said he feels incomplete and not whole.

I tried to dig deeper as to why he feels that way. I mean I know Andy misses me because we used to hang 24/7 and we are brothers and dont hang out much anymore. But then there is the whole "I cant move on with my life stuff" that Im trying to peck at to get what he means and why exactly he cant move on..Im trying to do it slowly and not all at once as to scare him. VEGAS

 

[Kulindahr]

Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

Kul-care to explain more of what you meant by that?? Just a little curious.

I was talking to a guy in a bar awhile back about struggling with whether I'm bi or plain gay but confused. He said to check my heart and see which I could be romantically attracted to, and I got nothing. In fact, though I was in love with a gal in Miami long ago, I can't recall the feeling or mood in the least. And when I try to imagine loving someone, regardless of gender, I come with a blank.

Andy called me last night and said he was so heartbroken and he had anxiety. He asked if I could "walk" with him if he goes outside. I said sure..and we spent time talking about the usual stuff.

I asked him why?...why is he missing me so bad that he feels he cant move on with hislife???

And he just said he feels incomplete and not whole.

I tried to dig deeper as to why he feels that way. I mean I know Andy misses me because we used to hang 24/7 and we are brothers and dont hang out much anymore. But then there is the whole "I cant move on with my life stuff" that Im trying to peck at to get what he means and why exactly he cant move on..Im trying to do it slowly and not all at once as to scare him. VEGAS

That"incomplete and not whole" thing has hit me as of supreme significance before. To me, that's the sort of thing one says about someone he wants to spend his life with, and never be apart.
I think Andy is seriously conflicted.

 

[LostVegas]

Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

Hey guys back with a quick update...Calgary Im going to asnwer your question in a little bit-I need more time to think about it.

Now, Andy calls me two nights ago and tells me hes worried because a SECOND boss now, a lady, also has it in for him and they hired another guy..so hes worried hes about to get fired.

Yesterday he calls me telling me the guy who owns his apartment told Andy hes selling the apt, and him and his girl HAVE to be OUT by February 1st...so while he didnt ask me for help...when he told me this what was I supposed to tell him? I said I would be by his side if he needed any help...he said he appreciated that but that he needs me out there with him more for support...he told me "Bri I need someone physically by my side to support me and be there for me". I found it funny he never mentioned his wife during this as she should be the ULTIMATE person to be by his side.

So anyway...I dont know what to do?...just as I start saving up money, this happens. Its ridiculous this kids luck.

On a lighter note..I picked a kid from my class who is less fortunate. Has 7 brothers and sisters, and none of them are his biological siblings...all step-family.

So I had an informal talk with him today to see his likes...and Im going to make this a very special X-Mas for him..I cant wait to hook him up with some cool shit. The principal and guidance counselor gave their OK...so Im going shopping for him this weekend.

I only really wish I can get all he kids in my class shit...but Im doing a lot for them this week in terms of goodies and parties..and we have a Secret Santa going on in the class.

Anyway ttyl..Vegas

 

[LostVegas]

Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

Just got off the phone with Andrew.

He was fired from his job. Today was his last day.

Vegas

 

[LostVegas]

Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

So Andy calls me late tonight. Several times actually. More like 15 calls.

I wake up finally and hes down on himself and his situation. Understandably.

He said hes not telling anyone his situation, etc.

He asked me whats I would do if I were him. I said I would wallow in anger and depression for a bit, but I wouldnt let it consume me and I would go right back to looking for apts and a job.

He asked me why I was being so quiet.

I was quiet because Im afraid of whats coming next. Hes going to ask me for help. I didnt tell him that..but I heard it in in his voice. He needs help. This time around Im not too happy about giving it to him.

So I begin to tell him that maybe he should just be honest with his situation to his friends and her family...I mean he got fired for no reason and it wasnt his fault. He said somehow they will turn it around on him and make him look lke the bad guy.

"And besides," he says. "Her folks are paying for a wedding for me and my girl...but that wont happen until summer."

So I NOW know my decision to stay here is with NO doubts.

I have to think of myself and my own life.

So I changed the topic to the student Im buying X-Mas gifts for.

I also tell him that NJ is really, really close to approving gay marriages and all that stuff.

He goes, "I thought you werent into marriage.."

I went, "Well Im not 100% into it, but it is nice to have as an option.."

He goes, "Well you going to marry Matt?"

I go, "I dont know..who knows"

He got angry with me about this and said Matt is not the right one for me. And how can I be with him after all he put me through. He then said, hey whatever makes you happy. But he said it angrily.

Its weird I got upset about his marriage plans...looks like he got upset at mine.

I also told him Im thinking about moving down to the downstairs apartment. He also got mad at this. He said, "Looks like you are going to be there for a while then huh..?"

I said I dont know, for now I guess.

He said, "Im going to go..I dont mean to be getting mad and I dont want to take it out on you anymore...I will talk to you later."

And we both hung up.

He never did ask me for financial help in this call. But I know its coming.

Vegas

 

[hanshansen]

Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

Hey there Brian,

I’m sorry Andy’s back to square one in terms of work/finances. Please stay firm on giving him money – he has got to wean himself off this, otherwise his isn’t going to regain (self)respect. Deep down I think he knows it. And while he may not make things much fun for you while he has these problems, he’s not going to risk your friendship over it.

Anyway, might as well send off the thoughts I’d put together earlier. I had another read of your very detailed responses to my earlier thoughts. Then, realising I had missed a lot of stuff, I had another closer look at earlier parts of this thread, trying to understand what makes the enigma that is Andy, and your relationship, tick. I think I’m done. God, this thread takes it out of you. Anyway, last week I said that Andy was confused and giving you mixed messages, and I also thought that he was more likely than not to have (sexual) feelings for you. I now think I was wrong about that.

At least, I no longer think that Andy may have some kind of repressed physical feelings for you. Here’s the main reason why. If he did, I don’t think he would have acted the way he did when you came out to him and when you first told him that you had feelings for him. Those events would have been as stressful for him as for you, and I find it hard to believe that he would have been as calm, as relaxed, as he seems to have been when you told him. He would have got upset or buttoned up or it would have been the source of tension in some way. He (his hormones) would also have read the same kind of significance that you do into statements like ‘I can’t live without you’, and he would have felt more self-conscious about saying them.

So why does he say those things. Why the ‘mushy stuff’. Well, partly I think he means the things he says literally. If he says ‘I can’t function without you’ he means just that: you gave him direction and a sense of purpose and discipline in his life, and without you around he drifts. Partly also I think he does have as deep feelings for you as you have for him – on an emotional level. You guys are genuine soulmates. But the depth of that bond can be explained by the fact that you both had huge problems that, by some quirk of fate, you found yourself able to open up to each other about, and nobody else. You’ve often said that you and Andy are really similar in some ways, but so different in others. You both have had anxiety, depression, trust issues. But you had them for different reasons. You were treated really badly by some people when you were younger and had to deal with being gay. He did bad stuff when he was younger, has big blots on his reputation, and everybody sees him as a loser and a failure. When Andy says ‘When you aren’t there a part of me is missing’ that’s sort of true, in the sense that he’s entrusted a very vulnerable (emotional) part of himself to you.

If that’s the right way of interpreting what he says, then his response to you telling him that he should only say those things to his wife - "well you are a big part of my life. how am I supposed to treat you?" – sort of makes sense. (Of course if he swears he thinks it’s in both your interests that you move to Vegas, and that there’s no conflict between his relationship with you and with his gf, that’s just another pipe dream.)

At least I think it’s a plausible interpretation of what’s going on. There’s a whole lot of stuff that Andy can talk you about – his anxieties about work, failure, the fact that he has anxieties – that he doesn’t want other people seeing. Of course, if he suspected from an early stage that you were gay and into him, that would be another reason to be different to you when his friends are around, even if he himself isn’t gay. Because questions would be asked in any case.

That leaves one thing I don’t have an answer to. Why on earth would a NY Italian be so gay-friendly? What prompted him to open up to you in the first place? Maybe he asks himself that question. All I can say is that it’s to Andy’s considerable credit (or yours) that he was interested in your problems and took them seriously, and that he valued your friendship enough to admit to you that he’d been dishonest to you money-wise. Could be that he’s mildly bi-curious. But not to an extent that threatens his sense of equilibrium. He seems to enjoy talking to you about gay stuff, but I don’t get the feeling that it sets his hormones racing, and I don’t think he fully realises what it does to you.

So that’s my deeply considered take on things (seriously, a lot of introspective effort went into this!) If it’s true, unfortunately it doesn’t help your situation. Both of you get a lot of (too much?) emotional support from each other and would, I think, be very reluctant to make as big an emotional investment in anyone else. But you can’t combine that emotional relationship with a sexual relationship. So he has his gf and you need to look elsewhere as well, and there’s latent tension on all sides.

I can’t tell you how to solve that problem. I still think the only way forward is for you guys to talk your way through it. Good communication is what your friendship has thrived on. But in a way, if I’m right, this becomes easier, because if you’re able to frame the problem in terms of you guys being soulmates, and wanting to preserve that while letting other people into your lives and needing a sexual relationship as well, that is a lot less threatening for Andy. He knows how emotionally intense you guys are and is comfortable with it. (There was an interesting thing that I noticed when reading about the time after you told him about your feelings for him. Remember he got defensive when he saw you continued to have those feelings and seemed to be jealous of his gf. But then later, he got jealous of Matt, and you pointed out the double standard to him. He seemed to accept that – he didn’t make excuses or change the subject or rationalise it away.).

So that would be my suggestion now. And by all means get him used to the idea of what being gay involves (not just the sex), if you think that might grow on him.

The other thing I’ve been thinking about is the relationship between Andy and his fiancée. I don’t know if you have the whole of it. Yeah, he doesn’t seem to be getting that much out of it, emotionally or otherwise. But that must go for her, too. Plus he’s kept her waiting for four years, and they’ve not exactly been living the high life. Despite all that she’s stayed with him for 8 years. From his friendship with you, I think Andy values loyalty very highly and is pretty loyal himself. Apart from liking what’s comfortable and familiar, I think he’s going to be very reluctant to let someone go who’s stuck with him through all that. And when you asked him if he cheated on her, he went ballistic. (Of course, his friendship with you isn’t physical so I guess he might say it doesn’t count as cheating.)

 

[hanshansen]

Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

BTW you seem to be getting a lot of satisfaction out of your job. I'm not a people person and not child friendly and would probably hate it, but those kids must really like you.

 

[LostVegas]

Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

Hansen thanks for all of your comments. They struck me right in the gut.

First, I think now there wil never be anything between Andy and I.

I have to admit...the only interest I had in going out there(besides being able to hang with him 24-7) was that there was some glimmer of hope. Would he lave his girl? Probably not, even if he wanted to. He is way too comfortable in that relationship..and I dont begrudge him that...thats cool for him.

But I realise this was not meant to be. And its pretty sad. I only wish to meet a partner 1/3 the man/person Andy is.

That being said, the phone call DID come last night around 5am...asking for help.

Of course I told him I would be by his side and never let any harm happen to him. I would never see him live or come close to living on the street.

I did not discuss money directly with him but I did get the impression he would call today with some type of monetary number I can help him out with.

His summer wedding plans and all of this only remind me how much I need to stay here in NYC..to find MY soulmate...someone I can be with 24/7.

His impending wedding and him having kids...are great things for him.

But if I can behonest without sounding selfish and mean...those are two things that I am not looking foward to sadly..they will be very hard for me.

Anyway ttyl Vegas

 

[LostVegas]

Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

Just fucking depressed over here today boys. I think this depression is going to last a while. Im in a lot of pain, but basically Im kind of numb.

I feel so alone and lost and down.

I literally have no one around me. I feel very empty.

Its odd, the last few months I have realized there might be nothing between me and Andy....but to finally begin to FULLY accept it is going to be a lot harder than I thought.

Im crying so much right now I cant see the keyboard...ttyl Vegas

 

[RicanDAB]

Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

Hey Vegas,

I was thinking: perhaps his getting married and having kids is the one thing that will propel him into responsibility and make him stand on his own? Despite how hard this will be on you to see, I think deep down you would like to for this to happen and this may be the only way to make it happen - he has not proven himself to be self-sustaining as an unmarried childless guy. Whether he will be happy with this girl or not in the marriage is not your issue. As a friend you simply have to support his decisions and if it is a mistake he'll have to see that on his own.

I also feel that your friendship with Andy would be even better if the emotional investment you guys have in each other is a tad less than it is now - the dependency you guys have on each other on this level is on overload. Why do I say this? Apparently he cannot get it together on his own and seems to be comfortable having you as his $$ backup and feeling that he cannot move on without you, making it easy to accept his bad luck (i.e, getting fired) rather than taking it as motivation to get something better. By the same token, it has not allowed you to give yourself the chance to find a life partner that will give you what you need in person. It's OK to be there for a friend as you say you will always be for Andy, but you cannot do it to the degree that it sets you [financially and emotionally] back in the process. And as a friend he should understand this and not allow it to happen.

Looks like you are seeing that Andy may never come to terms with himself to your satisfaction and I am glad to hear that you have recognized that there will be nothing more between you and him besides a friendship. This is probably the first important step towards your moving on and finding a relationship that you truly deserve. You're a great guy from what I have been able to learn from you here and the next guy who decides to have the privilege of calling you his partner (be that Matt or some other guy) will be very lucky indeed.

Don't close off your opportunities in NYC. I would hate to think that Mr. Right was right under your nose but you were too fogged in the Andy-cloud to see it. But if that did happen, he'll be back if it is meant to be -- and hopefully this time the fog will have lifted.

 

[hanshansen]

Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

God, Brian, I didn’t mean for my comments to be as hurtful as they must have been … I’m very sorry … but this is the truth as I see it and anything else would be doing you a disservice.

Let me just say, when you say ‘there will never be anything between Andy and I’ and ‘I have no one around me’ I think you’re talking rubbish … believe me, I have never ever had a friendship like you and Andy seem to have. You basically have everything that people dream about when they think of getting married or a LTR. You have the trust, the intimacy etc. It’s the sex that’s missing.

I’m not trying to make light of your pain or your situation. It’s not a stable situation, and there’s going to be change. It’s horrible. But you have very far from nothing.

Incidentally, I totally agree with what RicanDAB said just above. You two have given each other a huge amount of support, but you both need to learn to live a decent life without that support constantly there. If you are able to help Andy achieve that, it will be the best thing you have ever done for him.

 

[LostVegas]

Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

Spent most of the morning and early afternoon out. Just walking. Observing life. Seeing couples together.

Really down still. It seems sometimes nothing helps my depression. This is a feeling I have not gotten in a while.

Andy called on my cell when I was out walking..and he shortly realized how out of it I was..he said hes sorry for doing this to me...and he would call me later.

Brian

 

[LostVegas]

Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

Andy called....he said he will have to be out by January 1st now..but he said he found another apt in the same complex, so he wont have to move far.

He said he hated to ask me this and he knows Im down...but could I help him out with two thousand dollars so he can pay his bills and first months rent at the new apt.

Im so numb I cant even begin to know how to feel.

Watching someX-Mas movies to take me out of my mood....ttyl Brian

 

[JackFTwist]

Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

Andy called....he said he will have to be out by January 1st now..but he said he found another apt in the same complex, so he wont have to move far.

He said he hated to ask me this and he knows Im down...but could I help him out with two thousand dollars so he can pay his bills and first months rent at the new apt.

Im so numb I cant even begin to know how to feel.

Watching someX-Mas movies to take me out of my mood....ttyl Brian

Do I understand that he is planning a big wedding later this year?

He's your friend but you are doing him no good by being his total enabler. And it is not doing you any good either.

 

[LostVegas]

Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

Yes they are planning a summer wedding...and I do realize that being his enabler is bad. In fact I have been good with not giving him aany type of help for quite a while.

But he has no one to give him help...what exactly am I supposed to do? Watch him get kicked out on the street?? Yes hes an adult and should be able to take care of his own problems...but Im also his best friend/brother and hes got no one else to turn to...what would you do in the same situation?...say Im sorry you are going through this..but I cant help you?

If I said that, yes we would still be the best fo friends and brothers..but he would be out on the street..no?

Brian

 

[JackFTwist]

Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

He has family he can turn to.

He has a fiancee's family he can turn to.

He can live realistically.

He has many options other than your wallet.

I've been busted and I've needed a hand but he is also playing you.

If you didn't know that on some level this thread would not have reached this length and you wouldn't have reacted the way you did when he asked for $2 thousand.

Every enabler says, "if I don't, then..." That is what enabling is all about. Does he love you enough to accept your "no" - are you afraid that he won't be your friend if you say "no" - it is simply wrong that he is looking for new apartments and planning a big wedding and hitting you up for money and he is not taking responsibility for his own life.

Sorry to sound ike an asshole, but that is the way I have read this whole thread and have held off because I don't want to hurt you.

He - not you - needs to take responsibility for his life.

 

[Kulindahr]

Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

He watns $2 grand?

Tell him, "As soon as I win the lottery".

 

[backpacker]

Re: Undying love for my best friend...please read(long)

Brian,

I'm sorry you are feeling so down. I hope my comments don't make matters worse, but things just don't add up.

With regard to the job, I seriously doubt that he was fired for no reason at all. Given his track record and the fact the he said two people had it in for him, I'm sure there was some very valid reason for the firing. If he is short on money, it's his own fault. Don't reward his behavior by giving him another hand out.

With regard to the apartment, I have lived in three places that have been sold. In each case I knew it was coming well in advance. The prospective buyers always want to do an inspection before finalizing the deal. Second, the landlord must give them at least 30 days notice (longer if there lease provides for more time, which many do). They didn't just tell them yesterday that they have to be out by January 1. If that is true, there is nothing the landlord can do to force them out by then. Something just doesn't add up.

I find it more than a coindence that he has been trying to get money from you and now he has presented you with a desperate situation. He has already told you that they will have a hard time paying the rent at his current apartment, so why would they move into another apartment in the same complex. They should be looking at a far cheaper place. There are places where they can rent by the week. They would only need a couple of hundred dollars to move in. Certainly he could get a job and earn that before January 1st. These apartments may not be where he wants to live, but its what they can afford. Maybe his desire to live in something nicer will inspire his to get a job and work for it. The worst thing he can do for either you or him is give him more money. The best thing you could do for him is tell him he needs to be a man and take care of himself. Tell him that he can't afford an apartment in the complex he currently lives in.