Universal vs. Market-Based Health Care

[Kurn]

"Establishing community standards" -- sounds like undoing a generation and more's erosion of moral standards, by which I mean the concepts of self-sufficiency, personal responsibility, respect for others.... those things used to be the task of churches, but they've turned more and more to hate and self-righteousness, and the lesser items of particular sins.

Ever notice how Jesus didn't preach against particular sins, except those of attitude? like self-righteousness, lack of mercy, and such?

I'm very much a natural law person. Community standards in that light implies those standards that evolve or which seem appropriate in a given polity--that, is, a society of individuals of whatever plural number. This doesn't relieve humans of spiritual standards. It is in the nature of our cosmos that things like individual self-sufficiency and the other things you cite and that I would cite are of interest to everyone. Why? Because life becomes boring and tasteless without them. But, we need to remember the other side of the coin. What happens to a man's morality when his self-sufficiency is continually being challenged? Does it improve? If you are constantly surviving, a few dozen steps ahead of the hungry pack, there isn't much morality to speak of.
People like to have time to just swing through the trees for the fun of it.
Plus, God decided and nature sanctioned that we be social beasts.
We do certain things with other people.
Social functions also serve a deep zoological function: Channeling the energies of fear into better things. So when I endorse social programs, I co-endorse mutual responsibility as a concomittent part of those programs.

 

[Kulindahr]

Last I checked, you could choose not to participate in a 'protection racket'. Coming from someone who calls this a 'police state', I can't imagine why you have problems with the use of such a term.

The price of health care in this country is distorted by insurance companies... I also believe you agreed with that too. You did say, "Just because a system drives costs up doesn't make it involuntary." That's not really a denial.

Any other contortions you've got?

You're still using your own definitions, not actual ones.

Read my post.

 

[Kulindahr]

Frankly, I'm frightened of universal healthcare. I'm afraid they'll make me live healthy in exchange for having basic healthcare.

Fuck that shit. I wanna eat deep dish pizza with extra, extra, extra cheese until I fall over dead with pizza sauce on my face. I wanna sit around on my fat ass and do nothing. I don't wanna eat like a rabbit. I don't know. The idea just creeps me out. I know how bold these bastards are and if there's one thing you can always count on, it's that they'll try and slip something awful through along with something basically good.

There is that trend to ban, or penalize people for consuming, "bad" foods. With universal health care in place, the tyranny of the "experts" (usually politicians with ideological axes to grind rather than physicians) will be unstoppable.

They're already talking rationing care -- it's in the "stimulus" bill.

 

[Kulindahr]

Cite?

I'll try this again:

you're saying that insurance is a protection racket because it distorts the market -- but a protection racket is when they threaten to come mess you up if you don't join.

You're saying that when people are free to choose, that's a scam that distorts the market -- but if people are free to choose, it's a free market.

 

[andysayshi]

Frankly, I'm frightened of universal healthcare. I'm afraid they'll make me live healthy in exchange for having basic healthcare.

Fuck that shit. I wanna eat deep dish pizza with extra, extra, extra cheese until I fall over dead with pizza sauce on my face. I wanna sit around on my fat ass and do nothing. I don't wanna eat like a rabbit. I don't know. The idea just creeps me out. I know how bold these bastards are and if there's one thing you can always count on, it's that they'll try and slip something shitty through along with something basically good.

Considering the amount of misinformation that abounds on this issue in the US, I can understand your paranoia, I suppose. But who are "they"? How are the Food Police going to monitor what you eat? Imagine the riots if the US Government banned burgers and fries...

The Brithish NHS is one of the most successful Universal Health systems, and you should see the crap they eat!

 

[Kulindahr]

The word is that Obama's health care ideas came from Daschle -- and Daschle is an admirer of the Dutch system.

Here's something to think about: 11,900 patients were euthanized in 1990 by Dutch doctors, and over half (5,941) did not give consent. These medical killings covered indiviuals from a six-tear old boy to a woman who need help with groceries and cleaning her house -- both of them considered drains on the health system, so they had to go.

That's what Daschle envisions for the United States: killing off the weak so the stronger can live better.

Remember "lifeboat ethics"?

 

[smelter]

^ Doctor Kevorkian is a god to the Dutch.

 

[Kulindahr]

^ Saint Kevorkian?

 

[smelter]

^ Saint Kevorkian?

Not quite, he is still in the beatification phase.

The worst place for health care though is Belgium. If a patient has had a bad outcome from surgery, look at how they're made into public spectacles ..... its really quite tragic.

 

[Kulindahr]

^ I've been in a position like that. But before we made our panel presentation, we were told it was a possibility, that some people might say things that would make us want to laugh, and we were given a simple remedy: bite a cheek, or tongue.

It was pretty effective. I've also found that in such a public situation, while biting your cheek it helps if you focus a cold anger at yourself, the sort you might have if an intruder had tried to hurt your family.

For a talk show host, he was incredibly unprepared for dealing with strange things.


But on the substance of what you said -- at least they woke up! It sounds like a Dutch doctor who made such an error might just over-sedate you.

 

[smelter]

^ I need to apologize for not identifying the video as a gag. My remarks in the intro were intended to be tongue-in-cheek, just like my prior post saying that "Doctor Kevorkian is a god to the Dutch".

The clip is often mistaken for being real, and was showcased on The Tonight Show with Jay Leno and Star Channel news as being so.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_De_Gloria

 

[HenryReardon]

The Brithish NHS is one of the most successful Universal Health systems, and you should see the crap they eat!

Which explains why people in the UK who can afford to do so, go elsewhere for health care they can't get in a timely manner at home. Sure it does.

Your nanny state has surely been giving you too much kool-aid to drink.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=58379

Filmmaker Michael Moore praises the UK's National Health Service as a model for the U.S. in his latest film, "Sicko," but record numbers of British citizens have apparently not seen the movie and are going abroad and paying out of their own pockets to obtain better health care.

More than 70,000 Britons will have treatment abroad this year, the London Sunday Telegraph reported, a number that is forecast to rise to 200,000 by 2010.

In the first survey of its kind in the UK, Britons said long waits for treatment by the NHS and fears of the growing hospital-infection crisis were the primary reasons they chose to seek medical care elsewhere.

 

[andysayshi]

Thanks for demonstrating your own point about the disingenuous use of statistics. Once again, the right-wing partisan source you've quoted fails to note the truth - that the statistics provided include expatriates working overseas, treatment for people on vacation, and medical tourism.

Medical tourism is the act of travelling to a different country for medical procedures. While it does indeed occur to expedite treatment, the primary reason for doing so is cost. Guess which country has the greatest number of medical tourism participants? The US.

A forecast by Deloitte Consulting published in August 2008 projected that medical tourism originating in the US could jump by a factor of ten over the next decade. An estimated 750,000 Americans went abroad for health care in 2007, and the report estimated that a million and a half would seek health care outside the US in 2008. The growth in medical tourism has the potential to cost US health care providers billions of dollars in lost revenue.

Americans look abroad to save on health care

According to an article by the University of Delaware publication, UDaily:

“ The cost of surgery in India, Thailand or South Africa can be one-tenth of what it is in the United States or Western Europe, and sometimes even less. A heart-valve replacement that would cost $200,000 or more in the US, for example, goes for $10,000 in India--and that includes round-trip airfare and a brief vacation package. Similarly, a metal-free dental bridge worth $5,500 in the US costs $500 in India, a knee replacement in Thailand with six days of physical therapy costs about one-fifth of what it would in the States, and Lasik eye surgery worth $3,700 in the US is available in many other countries for only $730. Cosmetic surgery savings are even greater: A full facelift that would cost $20,000 in the US runs about $1,250 in South Africa.

Medical tourism growing worldwide


So, while it is true that more Britons are seeking elective medical treatment overseas, it's important to view it in context. The same can be said of ALL western nations, and US citizens do so more than any other nation.




But hey, the source you quoted was interesting reading. Just look at this from their current headlines:

'Gays' Crush Christian Speech

The special, hosted by talk show host Janet Parshall, emphasizes the media's role in promotion of homosexuals' "radical agenda," and includes examples of how television shows and movies such as "Friends," "Will & Grace," "The L-Word," "The War at Home," "ER" and "Entourage" attempt to persuade viewers that aversions to homosexuality stem from bigotry and ignorance.

"Speechless" explores the homosexual lobby's impact on school curriculums. Videos promoted as anti-bullying actually endorsed "gay" lifestyles, and students were forced to view them during school hours. It claims homosexual lobbyists also push for "gay" literature in schools.

According to the program, the homosexual activist agenda demands same-sex "marriage," teaches children that homosexuality is normal, promotes homosexual service in the armed forces, pushes for hate crime laws that threaten freedom of speech, calls for laws forcing Christian business to hire homosexuals and insists upon reserving minority status and preferential treatment for them.

Great source, Henry!! What's next - the Rush Limbaugh Facts page?

 

[HenryReardon]

Go back to your fetal position in the arms of your nanny state and suckle on the government teat for everything.

You'll feel so much safer.

 

[andysayshi]

Good retort, Henry. Well done.

 

[HenryReardon]

T

Medical tourism is the act of travelling to a different country for medical procedures. While it does indeed occur to expedite treatment,

Yep - and other reasons.

]

The failures of the NHS are legendary and well-documented. Here are one or two:

http://bestnewsfirst.blogspot.com/2007/06/nhs-failure-with-tragic-results.html

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_20040714/ai_n12799863

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...re-is-hole-in-the-heart-of-budget-441327.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...ailure-as-fewer-people-get-NHS-treatment.html

 

[andysayshi]

Well Henry, I wouldn't have to dig very far to offer you a thousand similar stories in the US. Here's a good place to start:

Google: US Healthcare Failure

As I'm sure you'll agree, no system is perfect. Every healthcare system in the Western world is currently struggling with vast inflation of costs, coupled with an ever-increasing aged population. The Global Economic Crisis will place further strain on individuals and Governments to manage healthcare properly. Having personally experienced US, UK and Australian health care for periods longer than 12 months each, rather than one-off experiences, I can certainly tell you my preference.

Clearly none of my arguments will win your heart or mind, so I suggest we must at some point simply agree to disagree.

 

[HenryReardon]

Clearly none of my arguments will win your heart or mind, so I suggest we must at some point simply agree to disagree.

Yep. You love being a parasite living off of the fruits of other people's labors.
I don't advocate that.

 

[andysayshi]

^ Thankyou, Keeland. Took the words right out of my mouth.

 

[Kulindahr]

I'm sorry. Where is the source to your definitions that you are using?

Here's mine: "A protection racket is an extortion scheme whereby a powerful entity or individual coerces other less powerful entities or individuals to pay protection money which allegedly serves to purchase protection services against various external threats."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protection_racket

Still going to flop about aimlessly on this?

That's what I said.

And by that definition, health insurance is not a protection racket. No one is being coerced to pay for protection, and there's no coercion involved.
In a traditional protection racket, the people you're being protected from are the same ones doing the "protecting". If a single-payer health system is put in place by the government which then requires you to participate, that will be true. Until then, it's just a racket -- or as my insurance agent puts it, "When they ask on that form if you have a gambling problem, tell them 'Yes -- I buy insurance'."