"What can I say to myself when . ." What do you say to yourself? A question about looks

[frankfrank]

Derek,
I first think about the episode of The Twilight Zone 'Eye of the Beholder'. Thats a great episode with a powerful message for those who have never seen it. I thought it would be posted on Youtube but its not.

On the old TZ, MY. FAVORITE. EPISODE. OF. ALL. TIME. Exceeded only by "Dreams For Sale" on the 1980's series.

The ending really "got me good" when I saw it originally, and I had to ask myself "HOW IN THE HELL did they do it? How did they actually manage to fool us, without us noticing?"

Lex

Eloquent and so beautiful, Lex.

I have always been so glad you're here. You are so good at communicating what you have to say.

 

[eastofeden]

Eastofeden,
It would help to hear from beautiful people and the troubles they have but who will admit they have a ' sucky life' (Big Bang Theory reference) if I asked them.

OK...I am closing in on becoming a dinosaur...this was pre internet.... and I remember the first time I started reading the personals in the BAR which was a gay newspaper.... waiting at the bar so we could all leave together.... and I was always stunned that so many people described themselves as GL or VGL...like how the fuck do they figure that out? I felt like I was either from another planet or maybe they were but since so many people do it...it was probably me

I had this conversation with alot of people over they years and never really got a handle on it...like how do people decide they are "good looking" or "beautiful people"? To me...it is all so subjective....

When I think about my appearance...it is about how I feel. If I feel good and healthy and happy I think I look good as well but if I have done something crappy or feel bad I think I look bad....it changes day to day.... so to describe oneself as one of the "beautiful people" or even "GL or VGL" would be hard/impossible I think. How I feel about my looks is based on how I feel about myself in general. I have a complete disconnect when it comes to looking in the mirror to get an opinion of myself.

So...I am curious...what do you base your opinion of yourself on?

Is it based on other people and comparing yourself to them?... or what you see in the mirror?...or something else?

 

[FPNY]

here's how I do. if people don't go screaming all willy nilly into the forest when I approach I think everything is ok. If they do go screaming into the forest, I take a good look at myself. Otherwise I accept there are those better and those far far worse.

Do people go screaming into the forest all willy nilly when you approach?

 

[m1thousand]

Robert,
Thank for for a thought provoking and well spoken post. Ive saved it into a document so I can come back and read it in the future. If this were Dancing with the Stars, Id be Bruno and jump up from my desk and lavish praise on you as if you had just danced the best rhumba that has ever been seen. THank you

I appreciate all the comments and I hope it will help others who get caught up in the same negative self talk as myself.

Peeonme,
I get what you are saying, I think. I do appreciate what I have and there are those who have more and take it for granted. I am healthy and I could have AIDS because I came out when it was in the beginning stage. I could have had a family that doesnt accept me for being gay. Etc, etc.
The thing that gets me is that I can hear about a sad story or someone who has overcome so much and I am not moved into changing my life, as they did. If they can do it, I can do it. I just think "good for them".

Frank,
I watched Eye of The Beholder about 6 months ago and it really isnt that hard when you watch it again. You can see how they avoid showing the faces of the people. Its a running theme until the bandages come off of her. You dont expect it to turn out as it does so maybe you didnt notice how they work around it. Its kind of like 'Rope' and you think "how can Alfred Hitcock make a movie in one continous shot?". BUt when you watch it with that in mind, it really wasnt that hard. Zoom in on something black so the film can be changed.

Dejavudoo,
I would like to say that I dont disregard others. They arent in the equation. I am focusing on me and maybe thats the problem. Well, it is the problem.

I spent 2 hours cleaning up my apartment's living room area, cleaning the weight bench from outside, cleaning the dirty linoleum floor under the couch where my cat managed to get liquid because he knocks over glasses. I like to think that I am trying to do something else and I may fall, stumble and having depression, I know there will be days when I might try to sabotage myself but I am trying to look at things differently because its not working for me.

Im proud that I thought of what to say to myself when I see a muscled guy. I was going to start lifting weights in grade 9 (1979) and my biggest regret is that I didnt because, hell, I could be a pro, with 34 years under my belt. But depression got in the way as well as the negative self talk.

 

[frankfrank]

I just have trouble getting into the basic mindset of the premise.

Quick example. Last weekend, I took part in an all-day event. At the close of it, I needed to move my stuff back to my car. My stuff was very large and bulky and quite heavy, so I went nosing through the audience looking for someone who might give me a hand. And the first person I recognized was Jared, the new boyfriend of a female co-worker. He's a former football player, and still exceptionally well-built, so I asked if he could possibly give me a hand. I took him to the back room, showed him my stuff, and started explaining how I usually transport it - stacking it like so, with two people then carrying it out, one carrying on each end. Before I could get the first sentence out, Jared picked up the entire thing and started walking out. I followed him out as he carried all this heavy awkward stuff out of the venue and a block or so down the street without breaking a sweat. Pretty impressive, actually.

The thing is - I never felt inferior. Yeah, I couldn't do that, but neither could most people. Being strong is something he excels at, and something I stink at. But that only makes me unworthy to be in his presence as a competitor in a strong-man competition. Life isn't a strong-man competition, so there's no reason I can't interact with him. And in fact I do. We've met at work-related functions, chatted a lot, and this weekend we're going going out to dinner (as a foursome, not a twosome). I'm sure he considers me weak and out-of-shape - I AM weak and out-of-shape. But that doesn't make me unworthy as a human being, or even as a potential friend in his eyes. Just a poor choice for a competitor on a weightlifting team.

Similarly, I'm at best average in the looks department. That means, as a best case scenario, every other guy I encounter is more attractive than me. (It's probably more.) But I don't live in a never-ending beauty pageant. I don't have an audience of people giving a big(ger) round of applause and high(er) scores to the attractive ones, and giving me zeroes. I don't feel my self-esteem eroding in the presence of even the most attactive of people, any more than it would in front of the very rich, the very talented, the very tall, or the very well-hung...or Jared. Yes, if I'm in a karaoke club with my friend with amazing pipes, I'm going to feel inferior...at karaoke. I'm not going to feel inferior as a human being.

Some of my friends are quite attractive. A few even do modeling work, and at least on has done porn. But I don't feel inferior around them, because I don't see them as an indictment towards my unattractiveness. I see them as people. People with positive and negative traits, with their own sets of problems and issues and neuroses. Which is probably why they've become my friends.

Lex

My key to dealing with the issue of other people's looks comes down to this: beauty exists on its own, I don't have to possess it in order to enjoy it. I don't go to a museum and get pissy because I can't have that Renoir on my living-room wall; I don't look at a sunset and get mad because I can't reproduce it somehow; I don't see a beautiful man and hate myself for not being a beautiful man.

It does piss me off sometimes that I'm not beautiful to my own standards, and I really don't like the face or the body I see in the mirror very much. It pisses me off (even more irrationally) that I can't dance ballet. I can't change these things, and they're really silly--so I laugh at myself. When I hear my mind going off on one of these irrational tangents, I just laugh at it: "Don't be such an idiot, Robert. Might as well get mad at gravity, or the weather."

Anyway, I think I'm physically ugly, and I have come to accept that I'm ugly. Other people disagree with me, but there's no accounting for other people's tastes. The thing is, there's absolutely nothing wrong with being ugly. Even in terms of attraction, just look around you at the people you think are patently unattractive who nevertheless have partners...some of whom are actually gorgeous.

The thing is, you have lots of things you can do to be attractive that have nothing to do with facial perfection: like having a personality. Even beautiful people have to have personalities if they want to be loved.

So you make yourself the kind of person you'd want to date: if that means gigantic shoulder caps, well, that's certainly doable, but you can't base a relationship on shoulder-caps. But if it means being kind and loving, exercise that part of your personality; if it means being funny, then let your sense of humor shine out. These things are all just like muscles, you have to exercise them to build them up.

You also have to look at attraction and mating as overlapping but separate phenomena. Yes, you want to find your partner pleasing to look at; but there's more to it than that, you want to have things in common and enjoy his company as well, you have to be enjoyable to him. Getting to know people beyond their surfaces will open up a whole new world about those people.

On a completely other note, m1thousand, don't put off the muscle work until you've lost the weight: building muscle helps burn fat faster than dieting. You won't lose pounds, you'll actually gain them; but you'll convert the fat-weight into muscle-weight, which is leaner, and the greater muscle mass will make burning the fat so much easier. Then, once the fat's off, you can start 'sculpting.' But go ahead and work on muscle mass now, not later, and chart your progress with inches instead of pounds: measure your waist, chest, arms, thighs, etc. rather than stepping on the scale.

Projects that require the success of another project before being started tend to not get started.

Oh sorry, this Lex one is the quote that I meant to refer to - these concepts are stated so well. And Lex is not alone in this thread (let alone in the rest of JUB) whose comments I respect unconditionally; the also-quoted Swellegant quote is also a great example, along with others in here that I won't quote as they're all readily available. Kudos to m1thousand for starting this discussion topic!

It is more than a breath of fresh air whenever I see people saying that "looks" have nothing to do with whether somebody is worthy of interaction and perhaps eventual friendship...or even more. We have all known people who will ignore most people who think that "I wouldn't mind going to bed with him/her, and perhaps he/she feels the same" - even when there is NO intention or hoping-for-sex at all. It's as though even fully-platonic friendships are ruled out unless both people find each other physically attractive, which is so strange to me. Fortunately there ARE a lot of exceptions to this rule (including myself).

 

[star-warrior]

There are plenty of beauty challenged folks who are getting it on and producing offspring. If you think you're beauty challenged, think again.

 

[Telstra]

Say to yourself "most people are uglier than me" ....

 

[G-Lexington]

It would help to hear from beautiful people and the troubles they have but who will admit they have a ' sucky life' (Big Bang Theory reference) if I asked them.

It's not from me, but I told you I have friends who do modeling, and one who has done porn. And I can tell you without hesitation that they have their own issues to deal with.

Again, easy example. (I'm going to be somewhat deliberately vague here.) One of my friends is extremely attractive. I've gone to concerts and events with her, and the professional photographers covering the event often ask if they can take her picture, even though she's not taking part in the event other than as a spectator. She does some modeling, and recently she was asked to take part in a shoot. Unlike most such things, for this event, the models themselves come up with their settings and outfits. She had a basic idea for it, and gave the outline to the organizers. They loved it and told her to go ahead with it. So she started working on it, but she got majorly stymied on how to make it all work. Setting and props ended up being cumbersome or too difficult, and she couldn't find a workaround to bring it all together. The deadline was approaching, and she got so stressed about it that she broke out in fever blisters. Thus she had to bow out not only from this shoot but another unrelated shoot, because she couldn't get her photos done with these sores on her face. Thus she lost out on not one but two paid gigs.

Again, this is just one example of the things she encounters that I'll never have to worry about. I've seen her have to deflect drunken passes from guys all the time, many of whom don't like hearing "no". Yes, I sometimes think that's a problem I wish I had, but I've seen it enough to realize it would get very old very quickly. Her dating life has been pretty shaky. She feels insecure in relationships, like she's more an "ornament" than an actual partner. Even when the guy seems solid, her self-doubts often lead her to break up with them before they break up with her.

She likes hanging out with me, though. I think specifically because she knows her attractiveness doesn't really mean a thing to me. I've gotten used to the "what's SHE doing with HIM?" looks we get.

Lex

 

[borg69unimatrix]

Eastofeden,
Just as in the example above, people can put on pretty faces but that doesn't mean they have a pretty life to go with it. And no, I shouldn't put them on pedestals or think they are better than me. THAT is something that I have to work on. It would help to hear from beautiful people and the troubles they have but who will admit they have a ' sucky life' (Big Bang Theory reference) if I asked them.

I doubt you would believe them if they did tell you they had a sucky life.

 

[m1thousand]

I doubt you would believe them if they did tell you they had a sucky life.

This is the internet. You dont know how I would respond. Actually, I would because I have been gullible in the past. I take people's word that they are being honest with me and thats why I can get into trouble when I read something that I dont think is true. But then again, as I just said, this is the internet. Its unrealistic to think everyone is telling the truth and I know that some people come here to escape and to bs, and thats fine

 

[dereperez]

This is the internet. You dont know how I would respond. Actually, I would because I have been gullible in the past. I take people's word that they are being honest with me and thats why I can get into trouble when I read something that I dont think is true. But then again, as I just said, this is the internet. Its unrealistic to think everyone is telling the truth and I know that some people come here to escape and to bs, and thats fine

If you truly take people's word that they are being honest with you...you sure did question a lot of posters in this thread when they tried to "help" you.

 

[m1thousand]

G Lexington,
I have hear about models who everyone think has no problem getting a date and they do. Some havent dated for long periods of time. And what will they heard from others? "Aw, poor little Miss pretty cant get a date"

Speaking of porn, even though Erik Rhodes didnt kill himself, he had made it known that he didnt like himself and being in the the porn industry had taken a toll on him. I believe this was the problem. I may be wrong.

Gia (The Bachelor) killed herself because she had relationship issues

Im realistic in that I know everyone has problems despite what you look like.

And although there is a theme of me judging people by their looks, I dont. I just get hung up on the attractive people, compare them to myself, and then I get bummed out. Im not walking around judging everyone.

Say to yourself "most people are uglier than me" ....

Ill try that next time I go out ;-)

 

[m1thousand]

If you truly take people's word that they are being honest with you...you sure did question a lot of posters in this thread when they tried to "help" you.

Can I re-edit that? Maybe I spoke too soon. Yeah, I want to take that back. I know this is the internet and anything goes.

I dont feel like I have fought back at those who have responded.

you sure did question a lot of posters in this thread when they tried to "help" you.

- after scanning through my replies, I see two times when I asked a question

One was to Sixthson in post 17 and I say 'Who wants to be around a person who is getting drunk daily?" Not a relevant question

In post 10, I ask Bankside to clarify his comment because I didnt quite understand it. I said "Am I impressing my reflection as myself (or as the person I would like to look like?)."

Where are these questions that you speak of . . or were you just generalizing? I didnt question any posters.

 

[borg69unimatrix]

I've read enough of your posts to know you are combative, ask advice and cherry pick the answers you want to hear, and make excuses for everything else. When confronted with what you don't want to hear you resort to getting angry, throw accusations, and then block those you feel are "attacking" you because they don't agree with you or tell you what you want to hear, claiming they're out to get you.

We're not here to sabotage you... you do that fine on your own.

Take time to re-read this entire thread for its content, and the advice given without feeling like you have to defend/justify yourself, and try to assume it's all been given honestly, with your best interest at heart by people who see you perhaps more clearly than you see yourself, and have found the solutions you seek.

 

[dereperez]

Can I re-edit that? Maybe I spoke too soon. Yeah, I want to take that back. I know this is the internet and anything goes.

I dont feel like I have fought back at those who have responded.

- after scanning through my replies, I see two times when I asked a question

One was to Sixthson in post 17 and I say 'Who wants to be around a person who is getting drunk daily?" Not a relevant question

In post 10, I ask Bankside to clarify his comment because I didnt quite understand it. I said "Am I impressing my reflection as myself (or as the person I would like to look like?)."

Where are these questions that you speak of . . or were you just generalizing? I didnt question any posters.

You can question someone without literally using the "?". Please re-read the thread, you'll see that many of your posts or replies have been doubting or rebutting people's comments/suggestions for you, and in effect, you were "questioning" them on how their advice could actually help you.

 

[m1thousand]

Borg,
Ill re read the thread


Derek
You are making things up

 

[Telstra]

Come on,
everyone is judging according to their looks. Just look at porn as an example.

 

[dereperez]

Derek
You are making things up

Not really. Take a look, for example.


Lex's original post to you:

I just have trouble getting into the basic mindset of the premise.

Quick example. Last weekend, I took part in an all-day event. At the close of it, I needed to move my stuff back to my car. My stuff was very large and bulky and quite heavy, so I went nosing through the audience looking for someone who might give me a hand. And the first person I recognized was Jared, the new boyfriend of a female co-worker. He's a former football player, and still exceptionally well-built, so I asked if he could possibly give me a hand. I took him to the back room, showed him my stuff, and started explaining how I usually transport it - stacking it like so, with two people then carrying it out, one carrying on each end. Before I could get the first sentence out, Jared picked up the entire thing and started walking out. I followed him out as he carried all this heavy awkward stuff out of the venue and a block or so down the street without breaking a sweat. Pretty impressive, actually.

The thing is - I never felt inferior. Yeah, I couldn't do that, but neither could most people. Being strong is something he excels at, and something I stink at. But that only makes me unworthy to be in his presence as a competitor in a strong-man competition. Life isn't a strong-man competition, so there's no reason I can't interact with him. And in fact I do. We've met at work-related functions, chatted a lot, and this weekend we're going going out to dinner (as a foursome, not a twosome). I'm sure he considers me weak and out-of-shape - I AM weak and out-of-shape. But that doesn't make me unworthy as a human being, or even as a potential friend in his eyes. Just a poor choice for a competitor on a weightlifting team.

Similarly, I'm at best average in the looks department. That means, as a best case scenario, every other guy I encounter is more attractive than me. (It's probably more.) But I don't live in a never-ending beauty pageant. I don't have an audience of people giving a big(ger) round of applause and high(er) scores to the attractive ones, and giving me zeroes. I don't feel my self-esteem eroding in the presence of even the most attactive of people, any more than it would in front of the very rich, the very talented, the very tall, or the very well-hung...or Jared. Yes, if I'm in a karaoke club with my friend with amazing pipes, I'm going to feel inferior...at karaoke. I'm not going to feel inferior as a human being.

Some of my friends are quite attractive. A few even do modeling work, and at least on has done porn. But I don't feel inferior around them, because I don't see them as an indictment towards my unattractiveness. I see them as people. People with positive and negative traits, with their own sets of problems and issues and neuroses. Which is probably why they've become my friends.

Lex

Now, your reply:

G Lexington,
Jared may be strong and I'm not sure if your story is meant to address my muscle comment, but I have no desire to lift heavy furniture. I want to look like I could but the actually strength aspect isn't a goal for me. I spent about 2 hours cleaning under my couch - it was a mess under there - and reviving my weight bench that sat at the back of my yard. I have a proper set of weights and I want to start using the weights which I have neglected for so long. To make shapely muscles that don't necessarily have to be strong. I know this will be a long process as can be seen in Youtube 1 year transformation videos. I have to lose the weight first, then build muscle.

G Lexington,
I did read your post and its a not a stretch to think that you mentioned a guy who can lift heavy things after I mentioned muscles in my post. I wasnt sure if that was because I wrote about muscles ;-)

You may not think about how a person looks and I do think about looks. We all put different degree of importance of different issues. Someone could be an expert on the British Monarchy and as Shania Twain sang "That dont impress me much" and it could mean nothing to someone else.

Seems to me you were basically questioning Lex on what he was trying to convey.

 

[m1thousand]

I've read enough of your posts to know you are combative, ask advice and cherry pick the answers you want to hear, and make excuses for everything else. When confronted with what you don't want to hear you resort to getting angry, throw accusations, and then block those you feel are "attacking" you because they don't agree with you or tell you what you want to hear, claiming they're out to get you.

We're not here to sabotage you... you do that fine on your own.

Take time to re-read this entire thread for its content, and the advice given without feeling like you have to defend/justify yourself, and try to assume it's all been given honestly, with your best interest at heart by people who see you perhaps more clearly than you see yourself, and have found the solutions you seek.

Ive re-read the thread and I dont see myself making excuses / dismissing it but I did dismiss you Borg when you said (in post 33) "I doubt you would believe them if they did tell you they had a sucky life." I said "This is the internet. You dont know how I would respond." So that is one example where advice is given and I brush it aside.


In post 10, I am open to EastofEden's 'energy detox'

Taz says to me "Say to yourself, I will never have a different face, so don't waste time fussing about it.

My response was "You would think that would work but it doesnt, at least for me." So yes, I did dismiss. I apologize

I asked Bankside to elaborate on his question because I didnt quite understand what he meant

With G Lexington, I said that I thought he was telling me about the moving man because I had mentioned muscles. I was taking his story literal when it wasnt meant to be

In post 28, I ask Dejavudoo to clarify his comment because I didnt understand it


That is my interpretation of what happened.

There are times when I didnt know what to reply back so I used an event in my life to relate to what the person had written

I dont see me as not listening to the advice.

If there are examples that I missed, please let me know

 

[m1thousand]

Derek,
I was asking G Lexington for clarification if he mentioned the strong man because I had mentioned muscles in my post. He said "no", it was just a coincidence