What is a 'gay man?', an article I'm writing

[Lube]

The most openly sensitive I've ever seen a man be was my father, when my sister was in the hospital. I guess he must be gay, since straight men are inherent sociopaths.

Yes, and I'm sure you can find one Italian guy who's taller and blonder than most Swedes, but in general...


And why do you assume your father is straight? I'm not saying he's necessarily gay, but why couldn't he be? You got it from somewhere? What about your uncles or grandparents? You're not the only GLBT person in your family.

 

[Lube]

Yes, I have friends like that. And they're all straight. Most of the gay men I tend to interact with (actually all of them, unfortunately) despise the hobbies I'm interested in. They wouldn't be caught dead at a comic-book convention, and shopping doesn't extend beyond clothes and Ikea. Most of the gay men I know (again, unfortunately) wouldn't - as Dan Savage so wonderfully put it - know an honest emotion if it blew a three-day load down their throats.

Unlike you however, I don't draw a broad and inherently inaccurate generalization from this, and assume all or most gay men I will meet will be narcissistic Sex and the City acolytes. Nor do I assume that every straight friend I have is gay simply because he enjoys a damn hobby. That's an unbelievably arrogant, and in this case, factually wrong assumption to make. I cannot believe anyone can seriously draw such a broad generalization about what gay men and straight men must be like. What den of caricatures and outdated stereotypes are you surrounding yourself with?

If you read my posts carefully, I am not saying that all gay men fit every stereotype. That's the fallacy I'm pointing out in the OP's "essay".

But, clearly, most gay men fit some mix of stereotypically gay things.

Otherwise, why would Out and The Advocate advertising (and advertisers) be so different from Playboy and Hustler?

Why would so many gay men (even here on this forum and your friends) drives VWs, BMWs, Audis, Jeeps, Mazdas, Subarus, and Priuses? Much more than their overall market share would suggest.

Why would Glee's share of men probably range about 80%+ gay (I'm including closet cases and guys in denial)? Hell, why is 80%+ of Glee's cast gay men?

With all the data they accumulate on their members' preferences, you don't think the iTunes Store or Facebook could predict with 90%+ accuracy whether a member is gay or not without even having the user reveal it?

 

[Lube]

if your'e talking about the picture of my loft I posted 5 years ago, I don't think that was über gay at all. Had some odd decor choices but it wasn't much different from my straight friend's places.

Yes, that's the one. And, no, I don't think most straight guys would decorate/paint their lofts (or even live in a loft) the way that you did. Seriously? That's pretty major denial there.

Well, and again... most of my friends are straight men and yes... there are a few more feminine ones who, once you get to know them, realize that they're just... kinda effeminate straight men.

I've known plenty of straight men who are very sensitive and unguarded and kind.

Most of my friends are men. Virtually all. evenly split between straight and gay. And honestly, people have come to parties at my house and had trouble figuring out which ones were which. That's not me bragging. It's just me telling it like it is.. we're just guys.

I just happen to like to fuck men. One in particular.

OK, Jasun. I think you'd agree that, for men in our age group (30's & 40's) in North America, most gay men are still closeted or in denial, right? So that's over half of the gay population! Do you ever think about that? For every out gay guy, there's at least one (if not 2 or 3) that aren't out.

You think these men don't make up a significant proportion of your friends?*

Seriously?



*--I bet a good proportion of your "straight" friends go home and beat off thinking about you.

 

[Harke the Boeotarch]

Yes, and I'm sure you can find one Italian guy who's taller and blonder than most Swedes, but in general...

Quite a few of those...

 

[jdcnow]

Gay men are weird. Period.

...And proud of it, sweetie!

People are weird. Period. Everybody's got something that would make someone else go Oo :s

 

[Passels]

If you read my posts carefully, I am not saying that all gay men fit every stereotype. That's the fallacy I'm pointing out in the OP's "essay".

But, clearly, most gay men fit some mix of stereotypically gay things.

No, there's nothing at all clear about that.

Otherwise, why would Out and The Advocate advertising (and advertisers) be so different from Playboy and Hustler?

Why are you comparing Out and the Advocate to Playboy and Hustler? I don't have to go through marketing again to determine that they're not parallel audiences.

Why would so many gay men (even here on this forum and your friends) drives VWs, BMWs, Audis, Jeeps, Mazdas, Subarus, and Priuses? Much more than their overall market share would suggest.

I don't drive any of those vehicles, nor do any of the gay people I know. Most don't drive at all. The only person I know of with a BMW is a straight woman.

Why would Glee's share of men probably range about 80%+ gay (I'm including closet cases and guys in denial)? Hell, why is 80%+ of Glee's cast gay men?

A) Who on Glee do you know of is actually gay B) How do you know the percentage of closeted gay men?

On the second point, you definitely do not. We can speculate, but that's all it is.

Your fallacious reasoning really isn't helping things.

With all the data they accumulate on their members' preferences, you don't think the iTunes Store or Facebook could predict with 90%+ accuracy whether a member is gay or not without even having the user reveal it?

No, I don't actually. Do you honestly think every gay man loads up iTunes with Madonna, Lady Gaga, and showtunes?

What vapid and one-dimensional expectations you have. Honestly, do you think so little of people that you refuse to entertain the reality that many or most do not conform to your stereotypes? Is your world that small and two-dimensional? Are you really that arrogant and bigoted of a person? Because that's how you come across.

 

[Passels]

Yes, and I'm sure you can find one Italian guy who's taller and blonder than most Swedes, but in general...

I'm sorry, but are you extrapolating extraordinarily complex human behaviour by analogy from physical traits?


EDIT: I'm sorry, I'm just amazed that a gay man would so happily embrace the limited thinking that's kept us marginalized. Because that's what perpetuating these stereotypes and and treating them as universal truths does: it marginalizes groups and individuals.

 

[JasunStrikesBack]

Yes, that's the one. And, no, I don't think most straight guys would decorate/paint their lofts (or even live in a loft) the way that you did. Seriously? That's pretty major denial there.

Well, I didn't say that most straight men would live in a place like that but most GAY men wouldn't live in a place like that. I don't think there's anything gay about having a black wall and a blue wall in an open-concept loft.

At the time, I lived in a big open loft in Toronto, and like many people who lived downtown at the time, they lived in big, open lofts like that that were decorated in a very bold way. My best friend (straight guy) had a big chandelier that was made of rusted bicycles hanging from the ceiling with Christmas lights in it.

OK, Jasun. I think you'd agree that, for men in our age group (30's & 40's) in North America, most gay men are still closeted or in denial, right?

Um... I don't know if I agree with that, actually. Maybe back in the 70s or 80s... but still? No. I think especially in the social circles I run in, most anyone who's gay is out.

So that's over half of the gay population! Do you ever think about that? For every out gay guy, there's at least one (if not 2 or 3) that aren't out.

Maybe in Montana. But I live in Silverlake.

You think these men don't make up a significant proportion of your friends?*

Seriously?

Seriously. I'm not sure why you think that I can't tell that my straight friends are straight.

*--I bet a good proportion of your "straight" friends go home and beat off thinking about you.

That makes a nice porn movie, but it's not my reality. Just because a straight guy hangs out with my husband and me doesn't make him gay. Just like my riding a motorcycle and listening to Slayer doesn't make me straight.

 

[Krakenbwool]

I'ma go watch the UFC fights now.

Save me a seat.

I'm just glad OP didn't put that gay men refer to each other in feminine pronouns. GUUURRL.

In all seriousness, I'm proud of these responses. I really am. *claps* That's the great thing about JUB. You find out that many gay/bi men aren't the stereotypes perpetuated by the media.

So where can I find you guys in real life?

 

[Passels]

I think I should add that the stereotypical assumptions being perpetuated by some here are essentially identical to those that kept me from coming to grips with my own sexuality. I didn't accept that I was gay until I was 20, 21, because I didn't fit in with any of the stereotypes that culture foists upon us. And most of my friends were genuinely shocked when I did come out because I didn't conform to the stereotypes.

 

[Krakenbwool]

I think I should add that the stereotypical assumptions being perpetuated by some here are essentially identical to those that kept me from coming to grips with my own sexuality. I didn't accept that I was gay until I was 20, 21, because I didn't fit in with any of the stereotypes that culture foists upon us. And most of my friends were genuinely shocked when I did come out because I didn't conform to the stereotypes.

Exactly. I think that's the mentality that many still-closeted gay or bisexual men have. "It's not gay because he was giving me a blowjob while I was watching the Cowboys game."

 

[Lube]

Sorry Lube, but I think I know my friends better than you know my friends. You seem to suggest that every effeminate man is gay, so where does that leave out and proud gay men, like myself, that aren't effeminate?
Maybe I just don't understand why some people feel a need to lump people in groups whether they know them or not. Whatever happened to just being individuals?

One, I never said every gay man is effeminate in every way. That's the stereotype. That's false. That's partially what the OP said. That's what I disagree with.

What I am saying is that most if not all gay men have some combination of special (effeminate?) attributes that distinguishes us from straight men. That's what makes each of us unique individuals.

Do you understand that difference?

It's like the show Will & Grace. Will's buddy is the stereotypical gay man, but Will is the more realistic gay man--some combination of gayish attributes, but not over the top. But, clearly--to anyone who knows him for more than 5 minutes--gay.

Two, how come the men that seem to be arguing the strongest in this thread that they have no feminine traits (yourself included) don't have photos of themselves? How out, proud, and masculine are they, really?

In all the years I've been on JUB, it's very rare the guy who--when he eventually shows his face on the Post A Picture of You thread in Hot Topics--comes across as more masculine than I imagined. 99% of the time he comes across much as I imagined he would, and nothing like the uber masculine butch guy he purports to be.

Just sayin'.

 

[JasunStrikesBack]

99% of the time he comes across much as I imagined he would, and nothing like the uber masculine butch guy he purports to be.

Just sayin'.

That sounds more like your projecting. Not reality.

Just like your feelings that straight men don't live in Open concept warehouses.

 

[fetaby]

What I am saying is that most if not all gay men have some combination of special (effeminate?) attributes that distinguishes us from straight men. That's what makes each of us unique individuals.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpXM9bj-WPU[/ame]

 

[Lube]

You fail in oh so many ways...

That is the gayest comment.

Evar.

 

[Lube]

That sounds more like your projecting. Not reality.

Just like your feelings that straight men don't live in Open concept warehouses.

Out of all the people responding in this thread, I have to say I'm most surprised at your responses.

 

[Lube]

Seriously. I'm not sure why you think that I can't tell that my straight friends are straight.

But if gay men are just straight men who like cock, how can you really know if they're straight? That's not an internally consistent argument.

My bf and I were both married to women for over a decade (as are many closeted/in-denial guys). We chased women. We had sex with them. We had kids. How would you know we were gay if we just appeared as straight men? He's a power lifter. I'm an engineer. He drove a sports car and a Jeep. I drove turbocharged cars.

 

[fabulouslyghetto]

You're confusing sex and gender. One is physiologically based, the other is socially based. I do NOT have a "female heart" in my body, that would require a heart transplant from a female donor.

 

[JasunStrikesBack]

But if gay men are just straight men who like cock, how can you really know if they're straight? That's not an internally consistent argument.

Because they're only sexually interested in women, they only date women and they aren't interested in men. They have plenty of gay friends, live in a community that treats gay people like a non-issue and still... they're only interested in women.

My bf and I were both married to women for over a decade (as are many closeted/in-denial guys). We chased women. We had sex with them. We had kids. How would you know we were gay if we just appeared as straight men? He's a power lifter. I'm an engineer. He drove a sports car and a Jeep. I drove turbocharged cars.

Um... in Los Angeles, I'd say about 20% of gay men are power lifters, 30% drive Jeeps, 45% drive turbo-charged cars and a good 15% have kids. Many of us also ride motorcycles, smoke cigars, play sports, listen to hard rock and eat steak. Insert whatever bizarre straight stereotype you'd like.

But they've never dated women because gay men don't do that.



Just because you were closeted for your whole life doesn't mean that it's what most gay men or even a large amount of gay men did.

 

[JasunStrikesBack]

I'm an engineer.

Ok, this deserved it's own post.

What the fuck does being an engineer have to do with being straight?

My husband is an architect. I know three gay porn stars who are engineers (two mechanical, one structural), one of my best friends is a rocket scientist who works for NASA and his boyfriend is a fireman.

Seriously... give your head a shake.