What is a 'gay man?', an article I'm writing

[Lube]

Passels, I take this to mean you are not accepting my olive branch?

 

[Dduder]

But it's not a statement of fact, it's your opinion.

No, it' not my opinion; it is the opinion of billions of people Worldwide. In practically every Human society, the stereotype of the male homosexual is that of an effeminate who has the same tastes, interests and mannerisms as that of heterosexual women.

Now, I certainly agree that opinions do not make facts. Also, masculinity is something that has never been properly defined. For instance, studies have shown that gay men have more testosterone than straight men, and that is a male hormone. So in a way, gay men are more masculine than straight men. However, if we define being masculine as possesing the typically male characteristics of being aggressive, competitive and domineering, then yes, I can objectively(de facto) state that, on average, straight men are more masculine than gay men. This is not an opinion, but simply a fact based on the accepted definition of what being masculine is and observing the degree to which heterosexual and homosexual men display the characteristics associated with being masculine.

 

[Dduder]

On average, gay men are not as masculine as straight men. Stating this does not make me a bad person. Acknowledging this about gay men does not make them bad people either.

 

[fetaby]

However, if we define being masculine as possesing the typically male characteristics of being aggressive, competitive and domineering,

6 pages of replies to this thread debunk your assertion. It is clear that opposing factions with in this thread are equally aggressive, competitive and domineering.

 

[Lube]

6 pages of replies to this thread debunk your assertion. It is clear that opposing factions with in this thread are equally aggressive, competitive and domineering.

Even forgetting the subject matter, you can't tell this guy is gay?

No, I'm not talking about the subject matter. Turn the volume off. Just watch it with no audio.

That's no straight male. That's a hot, sexy, cute, adorable gay man, in my book.*

And that's a good thing. (I personally love hot, sexy, cute, adorable gay men!)

And that's what so many posters in this thread just don't get. They think because someone is identifiable as gay, because of the way they use their hands or mannerisms or voice or whatever... they think that's bad.

And sure, if you've been teased and taunted your whole life, I can see how that is drummed into your brain. But that's usually drummed into your brain by closet-case bullies, who we all think are straight men/boys (but who probably aren't).

Don't hate straight people. It's the closet cases (like the born-again preacher zealots and priests who are so often caught red-handed with young boys) that are making our lives miserable. Straight people don't care unless the closet cases drum up the drama. And the closet cases can pinpoint what hurts, because they know what hurts them.

I'm saying we're, on average, more feminine than straight men, and that's what I like about gay men. It's what I find attractive about gay men. Sure, I love the muscles, the beards, the passion of gay men. But I also love men who are comfortable in their own slightly-more-effeminate skin, like Jasun in that video.

I'm comfortable in mine. Are you comfortable in yours?



(*--I know people are gonna say it's the subject matter that makes him seem gay, or that he's acting that way on purpose to be funny. But look how easy it is for him to "put on the girl" attitude. Do you really think a straight guy could do that so easily? Really? Really? C'mon.)

 

[gsdx]

And that's what so many posters in this thread just don't get. They think because someone is identifiable as gay, because of the way they use their hands or mannerisms or voice or whatever... they think that's bad.

Will you just f___ off with this 'That's bad' bullshit? We're not talking about that. We're talking about you insisting that every gay male is feminine and exhibits female behaviours! You think every gay male is a queen whether or not he wants to admit it and any gay male who doesn't admit it is in denial! You think you can pick out every gay male from a line-up!

That is just bullshit!

All that crap you keep talking about might apply to you, but it doesn't apply to me! And you can bet your ass that it doesn't apply to a great number of other gay men here in this forum!

You might be entitled to your opinion, but you certainly aren't entitled to impose your generalisations on me or anyone else.

 

[Lube]

Will you just f___ off with this 'That's bad' bullshit? We're not talking about that. We're talking about you insisting that every gay male is feminine and exhibits female behaviours! You think every gay male is a queen whether or not he wants to admit it and any gay male who doesn't admit it is in denial! You think you can pick out every gay male from a line-up!

That is just bullshit!

All that crap you keep talking about might apply to you, but it doesn't apply to me! And you can bet your ass that it doesn't apply to a great number of other gay men here in this forum!

You might be entitled to your opinion, but you certainly aren't entitled to impose your generalisations on me or anyone else.

So he doesn't appear gay to you?

And it's not just physical traits I'm talking about. It's clothing, accessories, which shampoo they buy, which soap they buy, the music they listen to.

And these are sometimes subtle things. that's something else people don't get. They think that because I say gay men tend to buy more feminie products, that that means that all gay men buy toothpaste with sparkles in it.

And so it is you who is jumping to conclusions. It is you who is totally exaggerating my points.

When gay men are more effeminate, it could be in subtle ways. It may be that gay men more often buy scented soap tha plain soap. It doesn't have to have sparkles and feather boas to be more feminine.

You are totally exaggerating my points. And that's completely unfair.

And, for gods sake, you watch HGTV. Look in the mirror. You don't have to be a twink for people to figure out you're gay.

 

[Passels]

No, it' not my opinion; it is the opinion of billions of people Worldwide. In practically every Human society, the stereotype of the male homosexual is that of an effeminate who has the same tastes, interests and mannerisms as that of heterosexual women.

No, it is not. Nor is it demonstrably based on any historical literature. And if you honestly think that, then you have serious gaps in your research on the topic.

 

[fetaby]

Even forgetting the subject matter, you can't tell this guy is gay?

No, I'm not talking about the subject matter. Turn the volume off. Just watch it with no audio.

That's no straight male. That's a hot, sexy, cute, adorable gay man, in my book.*

And that's a good thing. (I personally love hot, sexy, cute, adorable gay men!)

And that's what so many posters in this thread just don't get. They think because someone is identifiable as gay, because of the way they use their hands or mannerisms or voice or whatever... they think that's bad.

And sure, if you've been teased and taunted your whole life, I can see how that is drummed into your brain. But that's usually drummed into your brain by closet-case bullies, who we all think are straight men/boys (but who probably aren't).

Don't hate straight people. It's the closet cases (like the born-again preacher zealots and priests who are so often caught red-handed with young boys) that are making our lives miserable. Straight people don't care unless the closet cases drum up the drama. And the closet cases can pinpoint what hurts, because they know what hurts them.

I'm saying we're, on average, more feminine than straight men, and that's what I like about gay men. It's what I find attractive about gay men. Sure, I love the muscles, the beards, the passion of gay men. But I also love men who are comfortable in their own slightly-more-effeminate skin, like Jasun in that video.

I'm comfortable in mine. Are you comfortable in yours?



(*--I know people are gonna say it's the subject matter that makes him seem gay, or that he's acting that way on purpose to be funny. But look how easy it is for him to "put on the girl" attitude. Do you really think a straight guy could do that so easily? Really? Really? C'mon.)

 

[Passels]

When gay men are more effeminate, it could be in subtle ways. It may be that gay men more often buy scented soap tha plain soap. It doesn't have to have sparkles and feather boas to be more feminine.

What the fuck makes soap choices masculine or feminine dumbass? In this ridiculous scenario in our genetics tells straight women and gay men to buy scented soap and straight men to buy non-scented soap?

THERE IS NOTHING. FUCKING NOTHING. There's nothing inherent. What there is is thousands of years of accumulated cultural detritus, effectively marketed and packaged in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries to construct specific brands for men and women. The reason why you associated passivity and weakness with women is that society continually reinforces it, just as it continually reinforces a particular brand of stoicism in men. There is nothing that tells gay men to like one thing and straight men to like another, beyond what we are as individuals.

Fuck your determinism. If you want to believe that you have no say in what you are, then by all means. Continue to be a slave to your vapid impulses. But don't assume everyone is as intellectually and emotionally stunted as you are.

Even forgetting the subject matter, you can't tell this guy is gay?

No, I can't actually.



EDIT: On the history: are you actually that clueless to think that the behaviour you recognize as gendered now always had the same applicants? You do realize that many of the things you consider 'feminine' were shaped that way when manufacturing processes changed, right? Surely you realize that 'scented' products were once reserved exclusively for men, and that the process of association with women took centuries.

Your arguments have all the knowledge base of a young earth creationist trying to explain fossils or starlight.

 

[Lube]

EDIT: On the history: are you actually that clueless to think that the behaviour you recognize as gendered now always had the same applicants? You do realize that many of the things you consider 'feminine' were shaped that way when manufacturing processes changed, right? Surely you realize that 'scented' products were once reserved exclusively for men, and that the process of association with women took centuries.

Because there were no gay men back then when scents were first used for men?

So tell us, when in history did men first become gay?

 

[Dduder]

It has been observed by billions of people throughout the entire World in all societies and all times that homosexual men are lacking in virility when compared to heterosexual men. This does not make homosexual men bad people or inferior to heterosexual men in any way.

 

[Krakenbwool]

It has been observed by billions of people throughout the entire World in all societies and all times that homosexual men are lacking in virility when compared to heterosexual men. This does not make homosexual men bad people or inferior to heterosexual men in any way.

Ummm...the Spartans?...the Samurai?...King Richard the Lionheart?...Nope, they were not virile at all. A bunch of right pansies, they were!

 

[Dduder]

Jubbers have many different reasons as to the label they attach themselves with, but I was just thinking to myself and wondering if this is why you list yourself as being 'curious' instead of gay or bisexual. Is it because you are scared that you may be seen, or thought of, as less virile? Or perhaps that you think yourself as completely manly, and therefore can't be anything but heterosexual, despite being a member of a gay porn site?

Nice ad hominem right there lol. When not liking a message, shoot the messenger instead of addressing the message. Typical.

 

[Dduder]

Question:

Are you attracted to feminine or masculine men?

Elvin, I am not really attracted to men at all but to women. But if you want to know, I find attractive skinny, pretty and waifish teenage boys what you would call twinks. I have narcissism issues and in some ways I am attracted to boys who remind me of myself in my teenage years. I am not really attracted to typical males. Things like square jaws, Adam's apples and body hair are repulsive to me.

 

[Dduder]

Ummm...the Spartans?...the Samurai?...King Richard the Lionheart?...Nope, they were not virile at all. A bunch of right pansies, they were!

Modern gay men wouldn't fit right in with the Spartans, the Samurai or in Richard Lionheart's army. Most gay men are more interested in fashion, hair dressing, musicals and other typically female interests rather than war or war simulations like MMA and contact sports. I am a member of a war discussion board(armchairgeneral) and all the guys there are uber straight and have avatars of naked females. I am not aware of any member who is gay, but maybe there are. But given the fact that when all the guys there aren't discussing the great battles of history or hypothetical fights between armies and generals of history, they are talking about fucking vaginas and how to get vaginas to fuck, I find it unlikely. Seriously, how many gay men you know would have the interest and/or aggressivness to be a soldier in the Spartan army of Leonidas? Very, very few if any at all lolll. Also,, most Spartans and Samurai were not homosexual, but rather men who's preference were women and who ocasionally were attracted to adolescent boys. You have tried to draw many parallels between two radically different groups of people.

 

[Dduder]

You see, by saying gay men are not as virile, I think you are implying that homosexual men are inferior. Because there's nothing more depressing for some men than to be told that they are not virile or more feminine.

That is a value-judgement on your part. Masculinity is neither a positive or a negative thing absolutely. In fact, to me it is a negative given that men commit 99% of murders and masculinity is responsible for most bad things in history from wars to predatory social systems.

 

[gsdx]

Most gay men are more interested in fashion, hair dressing, musicals and other typically female interests rather than war or war simulations like MMA and contact sports.

Oh, God, here we go again.

We've already been there, done that. . . and been there, done that. . . and been there, and been there, and done that, and done that. . . and been there, done that. . . etc. etc. etc.

 

[Lube]

Elvin, I am not really attracted to men at all but to women. But if you want to know, I find attractive skinny, pretty and waifish teenage boys what you would call twinks. I have narcissism issues and in some ways I am attracted to boys who remind me of myself in my teenage years. I am not really attracted to typical males. Things like square jaws, Adam's apples and body hair are repulsive to me.

Oh, Dduder, I thought you were progressing, but alas you seem stuck in the rut you were in when you first got here.

'Typical males' (presumably straight ones in your mind) have 'body hair'. OK, fine, but what about gay men who have lots of hair (bears)? What do you make of them? Where do they fit in?

Modern gay men wouldn't fit right in with the Spartans, the Samurai or in Richard Lionheart's army. Most gay men are more interested in fashion, hair dressing, musicals and other typically female interests rather than war or war simulations like MMA and contact sports. I am a member of a war discussion board(armchairgeneral) and all the guys there are uber straight and have avatars of naked females. I am not aware of any member who is gay, but maybe there are. But given the fact that when all the guys there aren't discussing the great battles of history or hypothetical fights between armies and generals of history, they are talking about fucking vaginas and how to get vaginas to fuck, I find it unlikely. Seriously, how many gay men you know would have the interest and/or aggressivness to be a soldier in the Spartan army of Leonidas? Very, very few if any at all lolll. Also,, most Spartans and Samurai were not homosexual, but rather men who's preference were women and who ocasionally were attracted to adolescent boys. You have tried to draw many parallels between two radically different groups of people.

Here it's instructive to see where I completely disagree with you.

While I do believe that, on average, gay men have more effeminate features or likes than straight men, I do not believe that gay men are not masculine. That's preposterous.

Did you see that video I linked to, of Jasun? Sure, you can probably tell he's gay. But he's definitely masculine. I mean, how could you not see that? Did you see the photo of him with his new tattoo? Woof! Damn, he's hot.

You do realize there are lots of gays in the military. The US military, British military--every military. There are gays in the army, navy, air force... yes, even the marines. Over 12,500 have been dismissed since DADT was first implemented--and that's just the men and women who were outed.

These guys are not masculine? Give me a break.

 

[Krakenbwool]

Modern gay men wouldn't fit right in with the Spartans, the Samurai or in Richard Lionheart's army. Most gay men are more interested in fashion, hair dressing, musicals and other typically female interests rather than war or war simulations like MMA and contact sports. I am a member of a war discussion board(armchairgeneral) and all the guys there are uber straight and have avatars of naked females. I am not aware of any member who is gay, but maybe there are. But given the fact that when all the guys there aren't discussing the great battles of history or hypothetical fights between armies and generals of history, they are talking about fucking vaginas and how to get vaginas to fuck, I find it unlikely. Seriously, how many gay men you know would have the interest and/or aggressivness to be a soldier in the Spartan army of Leonidas? Very, very few if any at all lolll. Also,, most Spartans and Samurai were not homosexual, but rather men who's preference were women and who ocasionally were attracted to adolescent boys. You have tried to draw many parallels between two radically different groups of people.

Herein lies the argument "what is a gay man"? Being gay = "man who likes other men." That is an unchanging definition.

True, none of the groups above would fit into the modern definition of a "gay man," but that in itself shows that the modern perception of "gay men" is a result of socialization, not of nature. If something was an undeniable characteristic, then it would be consistent throughout varying times and cultures.

So therefore, there would be a difference between a "gay man" and a "man who is gay."