What is a 'gay man?', an article I'm writing

[gsdx]

Goodness me ! Sure, a percentage. But most? You've got this stereotype in your head about what being gay is, and I don't think anybody's going to prize it out !

Indeed. Déjà vu all over again. . . and again.

(Yes, I know 'all over again' is redundant. I'm venting, okay?)

 

[slnattak]

Jasun is a good example. He's masculine, sure, but he has a gay boy valley girl voice....that is quite common in gay men. Now some gay men have very straight, masculine voices. But they are gay in other ways!

It's a mix of both genders, a two-spirited thing if you will.

It's not as feminine as straight women, no. But it's not as masculine as straight men. It's a hybrid of sorts. Like a Shaman on WoW.

Anyways I just find this fascinating, and it's clear that the more gay guys accept this about themselves the more self-confident and happier they will be.

Now if you'll excuse me I have to go lift weights, have animalistic straight porn-like sex and then listen to Jordin Sparks and Fefe Dobson and then call my fag hag and talk about boys while doing each other's hair. =)

(Look at that one out basketball player, John Amaechi or whatever his name was- that's exactly what I'm talking about, great at basketball but also an empathetic and sensitive writer) And virtually all gay porn has guys who are womanly in many ways, and certainly obviously *definitely* more effeminate than straight males, no matter how much they develop their masculine sides.

You can't get rid of it fags. it's too inborn and inherent. I will always LOVE Jordin Sparks' music. =)

 

[gsdx]

^ I'm surprised you can still lift that shovel.

 

[geloge]

^he means they have hair in their pubis

 

[Dduder]

Herein lies the argument "what is a gay man"? Being gay = "man who likes other men." That is an unchanging definition.

But they didn't like men: they were primarilly attracted to women, and many of them were actually womanizers, and their interests besides women were teenage boys who were skinny, pretty and hairless like females. The Spartans, Samurai, etc, regarded the relationship between two adult men as pathetic. For instance, Roman men had sex with teenage boy slaves like they had with women, but only with teenage boys and always taking the active role. In fact, the worst thing you could call a man in ancient Rome was a "fellator". I don't think I need to explain what that word means.

So the macho warriors on the ancient World were not really gay in the modern sense of the word; they were bisexuals who had sex with women and males who looked like females. The gay male, conversely, is an effeminate who is attracted to masculine men. Two radically different types of guys. In fact, gay men were represented in ancient Rome, and the Romans even had a term for them. They were called "kinaidos", were exclusively homosexual, effeminate and attracted to manly men, and usually worked in the theatre of other aesthetic pursuits - like modern gay men. They were completely different from the typical pederast, who was usually a military man and womanizer who also liked 16 year-old boys and found the idea of having sex with other men repulsive.

 

[Dduder]

One more question:

So someone like me you wouldn't be atrracted to? I'm too much of a man for you?

You say in the teens. You mean, 18-19yos?

Elvin, why do you care what I like? This is only relevant to me. You are a very nice guy and you are one of the guys I like the most in this board, but realistically we will never even meet since we live in different countries thousands of miles away from each other. This is the internet, dude.

 

[Dduder]

For my entire life, I have simply bought the soap that was the cheapest. I never imagined my sexuality was in control of this decision. Lube fails in so many ways, it hurts.

He doesen't fail. On average, gay men are more interested in feminine things like scented soaps. It doesen't mean that each and every single gay guy buys scented soaps, dude. Geez. He was just giving an example.

 

[gsdx]

every single gay guy buys scented soaps, dude.

What about the straight guys who buy scented soaps? The only people who buy unscented soaps are likely allergic to the perfumes in scented soap or those who just like unscented soap, and you can bet your ass that there are both gay and straight people in those groups.

Give it up. Your argument doesn't hold water and there are many here who contest your wild generalisations. You're not willing to admit that there aren't any gay men who don't exhibit feminine characteristics. And you're not willing to accept the fact that those of us who have posted that we don't are telling the truth.

However right you and Lube and slnattak think you are, you're not.

 

[Krakenbwool]

So the macho warriors on the ancient World were not really gay in the modern sense of the word; they were bisexuals who had sex with women and males who looked like females. The gay male, conversely, is an effeminate who is attracted to masculine men. Two radically different types of guys. In fact, gay men were represented in ancient Rome, and the Romans even had a term for them. They were called "kinaidos", were exclusively homosexual, effeminate and attracted to manly men, and usually worked in the theatre of other aesthetic pursuits - like modern gay men. They were completely different from the typical pederast, who was usually a military man and womanizer who also liked 16 year-old boys and found the idea of having sex with other men repulsive.

So I'm guessing that "gay male" and "man who likes homosexual sex" are different things then, right? I'm not a gay man, so I honestly wouldn't know, but I think this is what we're getting at here.

So is it "less gay" for a man to be attracted to "effeminate" men than to "masculine" men? Because by definition, male genitalia = male, not matter how smooth his legs are or how silky his hair is. (Similarly, if a straight man is attracted to more "masculine" women, is he "less straight"?)

Which is another reason why labeling and categorizing people just gives me a headache.

EDIT: Also, as a woman who likes men, I have not used soap on a consistent basis since grade school (I am completely serious). I think my balls should be dropping any moment now.

 

[Krakenbwool]

BTW, where are you rock music-listening, video game-playing, UFC-watching gays in real life? I want to be your "hag." (And don't worry, I have never watched "Sex and the City" or "Will & Grace" in my life, so I don't have preconceived notions of how these things work. )

 

[Krakenbwool]

I live in Georgia, if that's what you're asking.
Prerequisite: Must be able to handle a mosh pit.

(I also do watch Will & Grace... and The Powerpuff Girls. Yes, i'm well rounded, haha)

I got The Powerpuff Girls, so I'm game.

I've only recently come in real life contact with "the gays," and yes, they are the "gay men" that the OP and a few other posters like to think that all gay men are. But thanks to the internet, I know tharr be a bigger world out there.

 

[Lube]

For my entire life, I have simply bought the soap that was the cheapest. I never imagined my sexuality was in control of this decision. Lube fails in so many ways, it hurts.

It was an example.

I know you know what an example is. The fact that you chose to ignore that speaks volumes about how you really feel about yourself.


I just posted on Facebook how I made a meal with Japanese beef. A friend (a real-life friend, who I know personally, in the flesh--not an Internet friend) joked that that makes me "so gay it hurts". And I know he laughed when he wrote it, and I laughed when I read it.

It's funny! It's stereotypical! So what?

Do you not laugh at yourself? Have you no sense of humor about your gayness?

Or are you always telling yourself you're "not like them"?

I really want to know.

 

[gsdx]

Or are you always telling yourself you're "not like them"?

I really want to know.

You just don't get it. Are you still insisting that all gay men bear feminine characteristics? If so, then I, for one, am not like 'them'.

And if you really want to know, then for fuck's sake open your eyes and start reading! We've been telling you all along that there are many of us who don't fit your diagram of a gay man! Seriously, Lube, I don't believe you're as dense as you're making yourself out to be.

 

[Dduder]

What about the straight guys who buy scented soaps?

Who cares? Maybe they are less masculine than average for straight males or maybe they have wives and girlfriends that make them buy it. It doesen't mean that every gay man likes scented soaps. It's just that, on average, gay men like stuff that women also like to a higher degree than straight men do. How is this statement incorrect? Seriously.

 

[Dduder]

You just don't get it. Are you still insisting that all gay men bear feminine characteristics? If so, then I, for one, am not like 'them'.

And if you really want to know, then for fuck's sake open your eyes and start reading! We've been telling you all along that there are many of us who don't fit your diagram of a gay man! Seriously, Lube, I don't believe you're as dense as you're making yourself out to be.

Dude, stop being so literal minded and prickly about nothing. Gay men on average are less masculine than straight men. This is a fact. Bitch all you want, it doesen't change that.

 

[Dduder]

You just don't get it. Are you still insisting that all gay men bear feminine characteristics? If so, then I, for one, am not like 'them'.

Maybe you don't, but this is irrelevant. On average, gay men are less masculine than straight men. Fact. Why the fuck can't you people understand the simple concept of statistical averages?

Gay men are less masculine than straight men any way you cut it. If you define masculinity objectively as being aggressive, competitive and wanting dominance, then straight men clearly score far above gay men in masculinity. If you think that masculinity is something subjective and hard to define, then we should go by popular opinion, and billions of people throughout the World regard gay men as less masculine than straight men.

Being less masculine....does not in any way make gay men bad people or less valuable than straight men. Masculinity is neither something innately good or bad; it simply is. The value we attribute to it is a value-judgement and simply that.

 

[Krakenbwool]

I wonder if the same people saying that all gay men have an effeminate side to them would agree that all black people have a "ghetto" side to them? I have alternate rock music-loving black friends (straight from the continent Africa, mind you), who would fight me to the tooth and nail if I ever suggested them that they're just suppressing the side of them that wants to get crunk to a Lil' Wayne track.

I think most of this just boils down to socialization. While the majority of gay men might have these characteristics, partly as a product of socialization, it doesn't mean that it's innate in all gay men.

 

[Lube]

Are you really serious here?

I'm a gay man who's ridiculously proud to be one. I'm one of the more open and understanding people on this board in terms of realizing that just because I'm not what most would consider a femme, doesn't give me the right to look down on guys that are (a disturbing trend amongst plenty of gay men).

My problem is the damn generalizations. Gay men come in all shades. Period. We're individuals.

And yes, that was just an example, but that's the type of example that unnerves me the most, being the sloppy guy whose habits annoy his straight roommates. This need to filter me into a group of neat guy into trendy scented lotions and fashionable decor is just fucking obnoxious.

While I am aware that stereotypes usually exist for a reason, your insistence that every gay man fits a rule, and every straight one doesn't (or that they're closeted if they do) is obnoxious. The need to filter people in such a way is something I have hated for a very long time. It doesn't matter if the person doing it is gay or isn't gay, or if sexuality is the reason for the filtering.

The only thing more silly than some of the points you attempted to make in your posts in this thread is the insistence that anyone who disagrees with them is merely taking things personal. I wouldn't be angered at the suggestion that I'm feminine, because there's nothing wrong with being feminine. The problem arises when you use the term to generalize an entire group of people, the vast majority of whom you've never met personally. That's why some of us are annoyed.

You're being just as disingenuous about what I'm saying here, as you were with the example.

You make it sound like I'm saying that every gay man likes x or acts like y.

That's not what I'm saying. And I know you know that. You're too smart not to. So why the act?

 

[fetaby]

You're being just as disingenuous about what I'm saying here, as you were with the example.

You make it sound like I'm saying that every gay man likes x or acts like y.

That's not what I'm saying. And I know you know that. You're too smart not to. So why the act?

x= less masculine and y= effeminacy....

that's exactly what you've been saying.

 

[Lube]

x= less masculine and y= effeminacy....

that's exactly what you've been saying.

If you said "less masculine" and "more effeminate", I'd agree with you that's what I'm saying.

But see? It's degree (more/less), not absolute (is/isn't).