What is a 'gay man?', an article I'm writing

[gsdx]

Clearly we aren't going to agree with each other, so I'm done talking about this with you.

Agreeing with each other isn't the issue here. You know what the issue is without me repeating it again.

I'm gay. I cry during the graduation dance in To Sir, With Love. Therefore, all gay men, including you, must cry during the graduation dance in To Sir, With Love, whether or not they want to.

My argument is just as ludicrous and insulting and as yours and I would be stupid to insult you by insisting that you cry during that scene even if you won't admit it.

Believe what you want. I don't care one whit. Just don't call me a liar and include me in your beliefs.

Personal opinions and beliefs are one thing. Accusations and insinuations are something completely different. As you can see, it's a very dangerous activity which leads only to anger and bad feelings.

And FYI, I wasn't quoting The Golden Girls. I was writing 'in the style of'. There's a big difference there, too.

 

[altlover85]

Agreeing with each other isn't the issue here. You know what the issue is without me repeating it again.

You are saying that I'm saying things I didn't say. I also think it's ludicrous to believe you don't have a feminine side. And the to "write in the style of" Sophia Petrillo, doesn't make me think you don't have a feminine side to some degree. We won't agree on this. You will insist you don't have a feminine side and I will say you are in denial. It's my opinion that you are in denial about having a feminine side. Why does what I think about you matter that much? You say you don't have a feminine side, so really only your reality should matter to you. You can decide that I am wrong and leave it at that, but instead you need to defend some sort of sense of "non-femininity", which I think is over the top and unnecessary.

I will not agree with you that you do not have a feminine side. I believe you are in denial about this. You can choose to be insulted about this or just let it be my opinion.

I'm gay. I cry during the graduation dance in To Sir, With Love. Therefore, all gay men, including you, must cry during the graduation dance in To Sir, With Love, whether or not they want to.

My argument is just as ludicrous and insulting and as yours and I would be stupid to insult you by insisting that you cry during that scene even if you won't admit it.

Actions are slightly different than intangible and subjective things like having a feminine side. Your comparison isn't exact enough.

Believe what you want. I don't care one whit. Just don't call me a liar and include me in your beliefs.

From my perspective you are in denial about having a feminine side. If someone said to me "Does gsdx have a feminine side?", I would say "Yes." If he said "Why do you believe this?", I would say "Because he watches The Golden Girls and quotes Sofia Petrillo." If this person said "You're full of shit and wrong.", I would argue a bit and then agree to disagree.

Holy generalizations, Batman!!!!

I should have said it's likely that a gay man identifies with the fact that women on The Golden Girls have sex with men.

 

[altlover85]

I just find it funny as all. I guess this is why people expect me to enjoy Sex And The City or whatever else whenever they know I'm gay. Like femininity, I don't get mad at the idea, nothing is wrong with it and anything about myself, whether it seems masculine or feminine--I embrace. I get mad at the assumption.

Except that it's oftentimes true. Whether or not this is more of a cultural thing (sort of a chicken and an egg type situation) is up for debate in my mind.

If a guy watches a show about women, I think it's a bit of a stretch to automatically assume that he identifies with the women because they like men. This is the type of automatic conclusions that have annoyed me this entire thread. There are dozens of different characteristics that the women in this show exude. A plethora of opportunities for the viewer to connect with. Why it always comes down to sex and dating with some people is beyond me.

Why not name some of them? The show is basically about men, dating, and living glamorously in NYC. Fashion is also important, but I think falls into the glamorous part of the equation.

I've not watched Golden Girls since I was a kid (my grandma loved it, and I loved my grandma). I can barely remember the jokes at this point. But as a kid, I thought it was hilarious and I don't see how on Earth I could've possibly related to those women. I don't think relating is necessary for a connection.

You can not think that if you want. How young are we talking when you watched the show? Did you know you liked guys then?

I watched it with my grandma as well. I had a vague idea that I liked guys when we watched it. I also liked older guys, but I wasn't as aware that I related to that aspect of the show until relatively recently.

As a grown gay male, I don't relate to most shows about a set of friends and their dating lives because I don't find them an accurate portrayal of anything close to my experiences--regardless of whether they're dating women or men.

You don't relate to those shows and you probably don't watch them either, right?

 

[altlover85]

Okay, okay...so watching the Golden Girls and Glee is under controversy, but we can all agree that anyone who uses the word "moist" is a total homo, right?

No. I talk with many people about sex and the ones I do talk about in any graphic terms, such as "moist", have been gay men. I can only think of a few people who have used a similar term, "wet", and they were gay men. Again, I don't talk to straight guys about sex that much, so I don't see it as being conclusive of anything and I don't have enough information to make an educated guess.

But again none of these things like (liking Glee or The Golden Girls) apply to all gay men.

NaughtyArousal, as far as the relating to them because they date men being overkill. I disagree. A lot of The Golden Girls was about dating men, much like SATC. Yes, they had career, but I would say during most of the episodes they were dating men and that's where a lot of the humor came from.

When I was a kid I related to it because of my grandma. However, when I got older I stayed interested in it largely because the jokes were funny and I found humor in all of the dating situations as well as the part about being older.

 

[altlover85]

We need to just skip the talk about TV shows and go on and rate every single word in the dictionary as "masculine" or "feminine."

Some of this shit is just out of control right now.

You are the guy that doesn't like labels, right? If so, I can see why you'd think things were getting "out of control".

Oh and I liked that French comment, RazorzEdge88.

 

[altlover85]

I love the Golden Girls. I own every single season on dvd. Problem is that I don't know a single girl that likes that show. lol

I also love watching Spongebob and football. Sometimes I burp in front of people.

I've never had a manicure or a pedicure. I also don't go to the gym.

I don't like Judy Garland and I don't know jack shit about musicals.

I don't do brunches.

I hate shopping.

I was thinking more about your taste in music. Regardless, The Golden Girls is liked by women older than us. I knew a few girls in high school and college who liked the show as well.

 

[altlover85]

I like Lady Gaga, Interpol, Coheed and Cambira, Diana Krall, and The Doors as well as music from some musicals and a few opera songs. My tastes are diverse too.

I don't think that changes the fact that liking Lady Gaga's music is seen as feminine by society, just in the way shopping is.

I think straight guys are secretly into certain things as well. I don't know if gay men are more drawn to artists like Lady Gaga than straight men or if it's that gay men are more inhibited about certain things. It might be a mixture of both.

 

[altlover85]

I have no issues liking some "gay or feminine things" but for someone to sit there and say that I am putting on a front because I like masculine things other than dick and ass is full of shit. Just like telling me that I am more "gay or feminine" because I like Madonna and Lady Gaga.

I don't see the two ideas as equivalent.

Lady Gaga didn't get over a billion views on youtube just from gays. Trust me. Or are there more gays than I think there are? lol

I never said she got all those youtube hits from gay men exclusively.

 

[fetaby]

I think it's hypocritical and condescending.

................

 

[Krakenbwool]

I'm just thinking...nobody thinks that a chick liking to watch sports or action films makes her more "masculine" or a lesbian. Most straight men actually think those type of chicks are awesome.

But heaven forbid that a man likes to watch Glee, Golden Girls, or anything outside of the very narrow and ignorant box of "masculinity" that Western society has constructed. That would automatically make him feminine and gay. :rolls eyes:

All of this boils down to misogyny, pretty much. It's totally cool that a woman would want to pursue more "male" interests because men are awesome, who wouldn't want to be more like them? But if a man likes something that happens to be along the line of typically "female" interests, he is insulted and emasculated because being a woman is embarrassing--you would have to be a fag to lower yourself to that.

 

[Krakenbwool]

I wonder if it's latent sexism in some way. Feminine = bad, masculine = good

I edited my post to explain my view on that after your post, but yeah, this was pretty much the conclusion.

 

[altlover85]

It's a double standard and one of the reasons why so many gay kids end up committing suicide - they feel like they need to live up to a certain standard one way or another. The straight world is telling them to STFU and the gay world is telling them if they don't like show tunes and Cher, wear make-up and flounce, they are not gay.

I've never said that if you don't like those things, then you aren't gay. I do think gay men are more likely to like (or at least admit to liking) those things than straight men.

I'm just thinking...nobody thinks that a chick liking to watch sports or action films makes her more "masculine" or a lesbian. Most straight men actually think those type of chicks are awesome.

I would say that if you like something that's gender atypical, than you should admit to having both a masculine and feminine side.

 

[fetaby]

All of this boils down to misogyny, pretty much. It's totally cool that a woman would want to pursue more "male" interests because men are awesome, who wouldn't want to be more like them? But if a man likes something that happens to be along the line of typically "female" interests, he is insulted and emasculated because being a woman is embarrassing--you would have to be a fag to lower yourself to that.

*cue 'but there's nothing wrong with femininity' all the while distancing themselves*



----------------------------------------

Anyway, I've half read over the replies from today. And I've only came across one thing that just raked across my nerves like a nail on a chalkboard.

I never said you were a closet queen. I'm saying you have a feminine side. Deal with it

That's just rude. First you presume that your definition of feminine/masculine is to be applied to every individual. Then you go on to tell someone to adjust their life according to your ideals.

Which is why this bullshit flame thread has gotten on to 9 pages.

Because if there is one cardinal rule, it's that you don't know who is on the other side of that keyboard. But if your so quick to keep your head in the mud and believe what you choose to believe about people, instead of taking the time to get to know someone, aside from the assumptions, aside from the generalizations, fine. And I'll say it again.

If you buy into the media hyped stereotype of what it is to be a gay, and go on to hold it up as a gospel, you are being obnoxious.

 

[Krakenbwool]

Since when did interests and likes determine whether one was masculine or feminine, or hell, gay or straight? I have a straight male friend who loves UFC, is a fiscal conservative, and thinks GaGa is the greatest artist out there now. (I would have to disagree with his last point, but whatever.)

Next thing we're going to be saying is that you're "masculine" for eating steak and "feminine" for eating salad.

All this bullshit socialization gender-typing shit starts at childhood, when little girls have to wear pink, and little boys have to wear blue. But what about yellow? Or red? Are they transgendered colors?

Which is why this bullshit flame thread has gotten on to 9 pages.

Nah, I'd have to say that I'm glad that this thread allowed people to think about these issues. And it's become not just a "gay" thing anymore, but a "people" thing.

 

[fetaby]

Since when did interests and likes determine whether one was masculine or feminine, or hell, gay or straight? I have a straight male friend who loves UFC, is a fiscal conservative, and thinks GaGa is the greatest artist out there now. (I would have to disagree with his last point, but whatever.)

Next thing we're going to be saying is that you're "masculine" for eating steak and "feminine" for eating salad.

All this bullshit socialization gender-typing shit starts at childhood, when little girls have to wear pink, and little boys have to wear blue. But what about yellow? Or red? Are they transgendered colors?


Nah, I'd have to say that I'm glad that this thread allowed people to think about these issues. And it's become not just a "gay" thing anymore, but a "people" thing.

Post 1


I think a lot more discussion and understanding could have been had though if this thread didn't start off as a flame war.

It's worth noting that sexual identity conformity happens right alongside gender typing. The white prince goes to kiss the princess in pink.

 

[Lube]

I'm just thinking...nobody thinks that a chick liking to watch sports or action films makes her more "masculine" or a lesbian. Most straight men actually think those type of chicks are awesome.

Oh, I see it's not just gay men that live on Planet Denial.




(when is this thread going to be closed, I wonder?)

 

[geloge]

What? We certainly don't all have an opinion of what is masculine and feminine. Masculine = pertaining to the beavior of men. Feminine = pertaining to the behavior of women. Most people would say Rambo = masculine, Quentin Crisp = feminine.

How many Rambos and Quentin Crisps (who ever he is, although I guess he is flamboyant homo) do you really know? Most of people, gay or straight are something in between, indeed more close to the middle. Obviously a Queen is more obvious, so most people equal gay and feminine. Millions of flies love shit and it doesn't mean that shit is good. And where the fuck do you live? what are male and female roles there? In western world traditional roles have changed. So again what is feminine and what is masculine in average not about two stereotypes?

You are only showing your prejudgments one more time.

 

[Krakenbwool]

Oh, I see it's not just gay men that live on Planet Denial.

What do you mean?

 

[altlover85]

^It comes down to misogyny and what it does to people.

How many times have people blasted the idea of guys being fem? I don't think I've ever witnessed such outrage in lesbian communities over girls being "too butch."

You always like to bring that into the argument. I think if you have feminine qualities, that's fine, but at least own up to it.

*cue 'but there's nothing wrong with femininity' all the while distancing themselves*

I'm not distancing myself. You can think that though.

Anyway, I've half read over the replies from today. And I've only came across one thing that just raked across my nerves like a nail on a chalkboard.

That's just rude. First you presume that your definition of feminine/masculine is to be applied to every individual. Then you go on to tell someone to adjust their life according to your ideals.

Everything I say is my opinion, not gospel. I believe gsdx is in denial about his feminine side. You and anyone else are welcome to disagree. He quoted The Golden Girls and to me that show is a feminine show. I feel he has a feminine side.

Because if there is one cardinal rule, it's that you don't know who is on the other side of that keyboard. But if your so quick to keep your head in the mud and believe what you choose to believe about people, instead of taking the time to get to know someone, aside from the assumptions, aside from the generalizations, fine. And I'll say it again.

If you buy into the media hyped stereotype of what it is to be a gay, and go on to hold it up as a gospel, you are being obnoxious.

I'll never know most, if any of you. But I can have my opinions about you or anyone else I want.

Since when did interests and likes determine whether one was masculine or feminine, or hell, gay or straight? I have a straight male friend who loves UFC, is a fiscal conservative, and thinks GaGa is the greatest artist out there now. (I would have to disagree with his last point, but whatever.)

Next thing we're going to be saying is that you're "masculine" for eating steak and "feminine" for eating salad.

Steak is viewed as masculine and salad is viewed by feminine by some. Many people believe certain activities are masculine or feminine. I agree that some activities are masculine and some are feminine.

Wearing a dress is feminine. Doing MMA is masculine.

Oh, I see it's not just gay men that live on Planet Denial.

You and I are the ones that are apparently in denial according to most people here.

 

[gsdx]

Everything I say is my opinion, not gospel. I believe gsdx is in denial about his feminine side. You and anyone else are welcome to disagree. He quoted The Golden Girls and to me that show is a feminine show. I feel he has a feminine side.

You know what? I never had a problem with you or your posts, but I've come to the conclusion that you and a few others here are no different than Clint McCance, Dharun Ravi, and all the bullies who have sent so many young people to an early, self-imposed grave. It's comments and opinions and beliefs such as your which drive younger, terrified, confused, and impressionable youths to suicide. Death was their only imagined escape from people like you.

I pity you and wish you the best in life, and I truly hope nobody treats you the way you've been treating us.

Goodbye, and have a nice day.