What to do with illegal immigrant criminals in the U.S.?

[Kabluey]

To me it's a matter of priorities. If it's raining cats and dogs and my roof has a horrible leak i am not just going to put a bucket under the leak to catch it, i am going to find out how to stop the leak.
Of course i could just swap buckets when one gets full, but that would take me away from other things that need to be done.
So, to me if you don't want the rain water then you fix your roof.

I have listened to politicians wring their hands and talk of the problem for years, it's time to fix it or change the law so there is no one to arrest.
At least if we make them all legal (unless they commit another crime after their arrival) we won't be pissing away ax dollars on incarceration and those who work will pay in to the system.

As above, private prisons are profiting from the existing situation.

 

[opinterph]

No, that is not adequate. Entering the country without permission is a crime punishable by jail time and a fine.

(From linked resource)

8 U.S. Code § 1325 - Improper entry by alien

(a) Improper time or place; avoidance of examination or inspection; misrepresentation and concealment of facts

… shall, for the first commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18 or imprisoned not more than 6 months, or both, and, for a subsequent commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18, or imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.

(b) Improper time or place; civil penalties

Any alien who is apprehended while entering (or attempting to enter) the United States at a time or place other than as designated by immigration officers shall be subject to a civil penalty of—

(1) at least $50 and not more than $250 for each such entry (or attempted entry); or

(2) twice the amount specified in paragraph (1) in the case of an alien who has been previously subject to a civil penalty under this subsection.

Civil penalties under this subsection are in addition to, and not in lieu of, any criminal or other civil penalties that may be imposed.

Enforcing the law with jail time would go a long way to slowing the traffic and preventing the other crimes by illegals.

I note that a first offense under 8 U.S. Code § 1325 is a misdemeanor.

 

[Kulindahr]

To me it's a matter of priorities. If it's raining cats and dogs and my roof has a horrible leak i am not just going to put a bucket under the leak to catch it, i am going to find out how to stop the leak.
Of course i could just swap buckets when one gets full, but that would take me away from other things that need to be done.
So, to me if you don't want the rain water then you fix your roof.

I have listened to politicians wring their hands and talk of the problem for years, it's time to fix it or change the law so there is no one to arrest.
At least if we make them all legal (unless they commit another crime after their arrival) we won't be pissing away ax dollars on incarceration and those who work will pay in to the system.

Yeah, though I was saying that putting them in prison isn't even the equivalent of putting a bucket under the leak, it's more like chipping away at the hole and letting it get bigger.

I bet if twenty years ago they'd taken IMs who committed felonies and put them to building a border wall, the most trafficked areas would be walled off by now, probably a good three or four hundred miles worth.

As for making them legal, they did commit the crime of entering without permission. I say fine them in place; give them a new kind of card -- gray would work -- that says they're on probation, and if they commit any crime while on probation they get to help on the wall. The gray card would mean they're here under suffrance, and have to pay taxes plus a monthly amount on the fines.

As for manning the wall, ask for volunteers, train them, and deputize them for wall duty, however many hours a month they want to put in (plus shut down the fairly useless BATFE and put their people on it).

 

[Kulindahr]

As above, private prisons are profiting from the existing situation.

Yes, and that's disgusting. I could see not-for-profit outfits running prisons, but making profit off the system skews it; those companies then have an interest in bending justice toward supplying more inmates -- which is not justice.

 

[Kulindahr]

I note that a first offense under 8 U.S. Code § 1325 is a misdemeanor.

Yep. That's why I specified felons when I started the thread.

OTOH, misdemeanor offenders could be given the choice to work in the wall, perhaps in exchange for a reduced fine.

 

[Benvolio]

I note that a first offense under 8 U.S. Code § 1325 is a misdemeanor.

If they would impose the 6 months sentence, it would go a long way to solving the problem.

 

[Kulindahr]

If they would impose the 6 months sentence, it would go a long way to solving the problem.

No, it wouldn't. That's a nice thing to believe for people sitting in their ivory towers, but if you've ever dealt with the legal system at the bottom level where people actually have better living conditions in jail than at home you'd know better. A misdemeanor and a six-month stay aren't much deterrence to people in the bottom level of economic conditions.

Putting them to work would be a different matter. They come to work, and most are hard workers. Set them to building the wall, and even if they decide to return once deported they'll have to face getting around the very barrier they helped build.

 

[cocksucker4use]

There are upwards of 11 million undocumented aliens in the US. Each of them by definition is in violation of the law. They are a drain on resources, and don't participate in taxation, social security, etc. The reasoning for not providing a path to citizenship is not unlike the old argument that gays were promiscuous and unstable, yet marriage was illegal. So with aliens who are here using resources but not contributing to the system, even though they would want to, given a chance. Even if it were possible, the cost of getting rid of rounding up and deporting even 10% of undocumented aliens is prohibitive. I have seen a figure of perhaps 3 million illegal aliens being criminals. To imprison thousands to millions more minorities and house and feed them is counterintuitive. One day, when they are released, are they not still illegal aliens? We should deport them from the outset. [Can undocumented aliens be deported without a passport, or "documentation?" It appears Mexican nationals can be.] As commented, they are likely soon to return. Are these undocumented aliens criminals by nature or by circumstance? Do some turn to crime to survive outside a system that denies them access to meaningful work, etc. The answers to the complex issues posed will not be solved by further burdening our own prisons to detain criminals shouldn't be here in the first place.

 

[rareboy]

So I'm taking it that just shooting them and letting God sort them out or putting them in camps with signs like this is not getting the most votes?

 

[gsdx]

Trump seems to like waterboarding.

Trump told supporters: “Would I approve waterboarding? You bet your ass I would. In a heartbeat. I would approve more than that. It works.”

The Republican frontrunner then added “… and if it doesn’t work, they deserve it anyway for what they do to us”.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...arding-even-if-it-doesnt-work-they-deserve-it

 

[Kulindahr]

There are upwards of 11 million undocumented aliens in the US. Each of them by definition is in violation of the law. They are a drain on resources, and don't participate in taxation, social security, etc. The reasoning for not providing a path to citizenship is not unlike the old argument that gays were promiscuous and unstable, yet marriage was illegal. So with aliens who are here using resources but not contributing to the system, even though they would want to, given a chance. Even if it were possible, the cost of getting rid of rounding up and deporting even 10% of undocumented aliens is prohibitive. I have seen a figure of perhaps 3 million illegal aliens being criminals. To imprison thousands to millions more minorities and house and feed them is counterintuitive. One day, when they are released, are they not still illegal aliens? We should deport them from the outset. [Can undocumented aliens be deported without a passport, or "documentation?" It appears Mexican nationals can be.] As commented, they are likely soon to return. Are these undocumented aliens criminals by nature or by circumstance? Do some turn to crime to survive outside a system that denies them access to meaningful work, etc. The answers to the complex issues posed will not be solved by further burdening our own prisons to detain criminals shouldn't be here in the first place.

They've broken the law, we can put them to work (that's in the Constitution, BTW).

And on the whole they contribute more to the system than they take, if you exclude those 3 million.

So put them to work building Trump's wall -- they'll be contributing, and at the same time making it harder for them to return.

 

[Kulindahr]

So I'm taking it that just shooting them and letting God sort them out or putting them in camps with signs like this is not getting the most votes?

I'm not sure anything is getting the most votes. That's the trouble in Congress, too -- it seems we can't imprison them, we can't deport them, we can't stop them from coming... we can just kick the can down the road and let it get worse.


Just for an added perspective: Putin gives orders to the Russian mafia around the world just as he does to his former KGB troops. He had the DNC hacked to play with our election. Do we really want to leave this very large door open to his "little green men"?

 

[Kulindahr]

Trump seems to like waterboarding.



https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...arding-even-if-it-doesnt-work-they-deserve-it

There's not enough water in the border states to waterboard all the illegal immigrants.

 

[Kulindahr]

Re: The "NEW" conservative budget

But that is all the wall is a promise that it will magically stop the 'invasion'. Since we're gutting the Coast Guard budget to build it, Coyotes are likely investing in boats right now. A wall along the border was never a realistic solution for stopping illegal immigration, all it will do is shift the avenue by which they arrive. Eliminating the incentive is the most effective means.

Boats? Probably submarines, too. Drugs come in that way even with the Coast Guard funded as it is at present.

But yes, eliminating the incentive is the best way. That's why I say no deportation, at least not immediately: put them to work at manual labor without pay, and after three years then deport them. They'll have worked at least as hard as they would have at any job, and have nothing to show for it -- thus, no point in coming.

 

[frankfrank]

Re: The "NEW" conservative budget

put them to work at manual labor without pay, and after three years then deport them.

No! I disagree. This is another of those things I feel should never be used for any reason: SLAVERY. Who would these people be working for, anyway?

My feelings about slavery are similar to those about torture; there is no circumstance that should ever allow it. Get that "foot in the door" and somebody will find a way to exploit and expand it. What would stop this permission of slavery (exacted upon "illegals") from expanding, via loopholes and/or precedent, into forms of human trafficking? Those who benefit from the slave labor would somehow want more and more "warm bodies" to show up for further exploitation. Where those who came illegally are held for hard labor, would these be for-profit outfits?

We already see similar scenarios happening in Arizona, which seems to love to feed more and more human capital into the for-profit prison monster.

 

[Kabluey]

No! I disagree. This is another of those things I feel should never be used for any reason: SLAVERY. Who would these people be working for, anyway?
...

Completely agree.
Think for a second how Americans would respond if they discovered their citizens being forced into indentured labour because of nonviolent offences in foreign countries.

 

[Benvolio]

Re: The "NEW" conservative budget

No! I disagree. This is another of those things I feel should never be used for any reason: SLAVERY. Who would these people be working for, anyway?

My feelings about slavery are similar to those about torture; there is no circumstance that should ever allow it. Get that "foot in the door" and somebody will find a way to exploit and expand it. What would stop this permission of slavery (exacted upon "illegals") from expanding, via loopholes and/or precedent, into forms of human trafficking? Those who benefit from the slave labor would somehow want more and more "warm bodies" to show up for further exploitation. Where those who came illegally are held for hard labor, would these be for-profit outfits?

We already see similar scenarios happening in Arizona, which seems to love to feed more and more human capital into the for-profit prison monster.

What should be the punisment for invading our country? There should be some jail time for all adults. But that involves expense, so they should at least work eenough to defray the expenses. And illegals who commit other crimes should recieve enhanced punishments.

 

[Kabluey]

What should be the punisment for invading our country? There should be some jail time for all adults. But that involves expense, so they should at least work eenough to defray the expenses. And illegals who commit other crimes should recieve enhanced punishments.

Ben wants slaves.
Should we act surprised?

 

[rareboy]

Re: The "NEW" conservative budget

No.

Not really.

 

[evelyn]

Re: The "NEW" conservative budget

What should be the punisment for invading our country? There should be some jail time for all adults. But that involves expense, so they should at least work eenough to defray the expenses. And illegals who commit other crimes should recieve enhanced punishments.

Immigrants who end up in jail in the country they have entered illegally, and provided they received a fair hearing and trial etc., should not merely be released back onto the street after serving time. They should be intercepted at the point of release and immediately removed back to their country of origin.