Where in the Bible is homosexuality prohibited?

[gotdimples77]

Without descending into the "hogwash" debate I would like to suggest that the whole thing fall into this category:

If you do real research, you'll find that the business with Lilith was ancient fantasy.

IT all seems like ancient fantasy to me...why draw a line here rather than anywhere else? It isnt in the received text? so what? who even knows what that is anymore? Something from "Q"? Pitch it all and start over I say!!

 

[JerryBoyz]

Sure the Bible says no to male gay sex. But it also says you can't eat shellfish, adultery is punishable by death, you should beat your kids, masturbation is strictly forbidden, slavery is cool, and God is soooo insecure that he has the Hebrews slaughter MANY tribes to placate his fragile ego...I wouldn't take it too seriously....

 

[AngelBoy]

Is religion Hogwash?

Talking about if it is fair to call religious writings and doctrines "Hogwash".

Kulindahr compared this to someone saying that "being gay is hogwash". A lot of Gay and Bisexual people would be very happy if this was the worst thing in the teachings and writings of some of the main religions about homosexuality.

Like the "Pirates code" Leviticus is maybe more Guidelines - but that hasn't stopped homosexual people being persecuted for centuries in the name of religion. The mildest thing many religions say about being gay is that we deserve to burn in Hell for all eternity.

Some countries (in the name of Religion) still execute people for being gay while a lot give us long terms of imprisonment (as did the most of the Western democracies till a few decades ago).

Even in the USA many Religious groups use thier electoral and economic power to try and limit the rights of homosexual people (this is not to insult Republican voters by implying they're all Christian fundamentalists)

The word "Hogwash" is rather emotional and inacurate as it generally means "Worthless, false or ridiculous speech or writing". A better description would be a word that is not derogatory but means "Evil, false or oppresive speech or writing".

Actually (at least against homosexuals) "Flame" itself would maybe be a good word to describe the writings and teachings of these religions.

I think people are entitled to believe and do anything they want so long as it doesn't harm others. What I don't like about many religions is that they're so convinced they have the "ultimate" truth that they try to force their ideas on others.

 

[Kulindahr]

Re: Is religion Hogwash?

Talking about if it is fair to call religious writings and doctrines "Hogwash".

Kulindahr compared this to someone saying that "being gay is hogwash". A lot of Gay and Bisexual people would be very happy if this was the worst thing in the teachings and writings of some of the main religions about homosexuality.

Like the "Pirates code" Leviticus is maybe more Guidelines - but that hasn't stopped homosexual people being persecuted for centuries in the name of religion. The mildest thing many religions say about being gay is that we deserve to burn in Hell for all eternity.

Some countries (in the name of Religion) still execute people for being gay while a lot give us long terms of imprisonment (as did the most of the Western democracies till a few decades ago).

Even in the USA many Religious groups use thier electoral and economic power to try and limit the rights of homosexual people (this is not to insult Republican voters by implying they're all Christian fundamentalists)

The word "Hogwash" is rather emotional and inacurate as it generally means "Worthless, false or ridiculous speech or writing". A better description would be a word that is not derogatory but means "Evil, false or oppresive speech or writing".

Actually (at least against homosexuals) "Flame" itself would maybe be a good word to describe the writings and teachings of these religions.

I think people are entitled to believe and do anything they want so long as it doesn't harm others. What I don't like about many religions is that they're so convinced they have the "ultimate" truth that they try to force their ideas on others.

I met some people while camping recently. They knew exactly two things about me: that I was a nudist, and that I was wearing a rainbow choker. I got attacked for being a pervert, a pedophile, rude, intrusive, and more, with an angry, hateful, almost violent verbal deluge.
It's sad that my conclusion was that they had to be right-wing fundamentalist Christians. It's sadder that due to being in shock I didn't tell them they were possessed of an evil, vengeful spirit.

 

[AngelBoy]

Re: Is religion Hogwash?

I met some people while camping recently. They knew exactly two things about me: that I was a nudist, and that I was wearing a rainbow choker. I got attacked for being a pervert, a pedophile, rude, intrusive, and more, with an angry, hateful, almost violent verbal deluge.
It's sad that my conclusion was that they had to be right-wing fundamentalist Christians. It's sadder that due to being in shock I didn't tell them they were possessed of an evil, vengeful spirit.

Kulindahr – the experience you describe is similar to lots of our “real world” encounters with religious people.

I do also think you are right that guys here should avoid posting using emotionally charged words – in reality the meaning of these words is sometimes actually milder than the ideas we want to convey – and the confrontational nature of these drowns out any rational point we want to make.

Describing someone as a “Fucking Bastard” sounds like a real flame – but all it actually says is that he engages in penetrative sex and that his parents were not formally married at the time he was born. The former applies to most of us – plus loads of people I know have parents that weren’t married when they were born.

But calling someone a “Fucking Bastard” in a post would definitely make it a flame !!

In the same way “Hogwash” is emotionally charged – but actually means something much milder than the poster probably intended.

For me – I’m posting here cos I think theres a small chance I might make at least one person oppressed by religion actually start to question if its true – not much hope in reality – but worth a few keystrokes anyway! – plus being stuck out in rural Arkansas is enough to make anyone welcome any diversion.

Boy – I also know the feeling of not being able to articulate my ideas in real time – like you I can think of loads of things you could have said to those “G W Bush - Christian” campers now – but I’d not have been able to say any at the time either.

 

[Kulindahr]

Re: Is religion Hogwash?

Kulindahr – the experience you describe is similar to lots of our “real world” encounters with religious people.

....

For me – I’m posting here cos I think theres a small chance I might make at least one person oppressed by religion actually start to question if its true – not much hope in reality – but worth a few keystrokes anyway! – plus being stuck out in rural Arkansas is enough to make anyone welcome any diversion.

Boy – I also know the feeling of not being able to articulate my ideas in real time – like you I can think of loads of things you could have said to those “G W Bush - Christian” campers now – but I’d not have been able to say any at the time either.

I wrote a blog entry about that little "religious encounter"... it'll appear soon, if it hasn't already (I'm trying to catch up on a week's worth of JUB and other internet stuff all at once, and I'm not sure what I've done and what I haven't).

I really need to imagine and practice ahead of time for dealing with such responses. The thing is, I've faced down idiot preachers before, and left them chewing air -- see, I read the NT in the Greek (though I'm getting rusty), and most of them just can't match that; plus I actually read it, rather than just memorize a few theme verses and ignore the rest.
Being "oppressed by religion" is, in a way, the problem, but the counter to that isn't to make people doubt religion completely, but to point out that they're believing a lie (as was prophesied, BTW). I'd be happy to counter scripture-quoting bigots with scripture, just as Jesus did the religious bigots of His day. But some questions would be nice, too, like:

Where does it say...
"Thou shalt not be naked"?
"By their yelling shall you know their love"?
"Oppression makes the heart of a child glad"?

<sigh>

 

[AngelBoy]

Re: Is religion Hogwash?

but to point out that they're believing a lie

Know its quoted out of context - but isn't that a big problem with religion - that it isn't actually true - again "Lie" is a bit emotive - so maybe "non true statement" is better and more neutral. However it is probably fair to state in colloquial terms that religion really is "Hogwash" (though clearly too mild a word to describe it in reality)

 

[Spensed]

Re: Is religion Hogwash?

Know its quoted out of context - but isn't that a big problem with religion - that it isn't actually true - again "Lie" is a bit emotive - so maybe "non true statement" is better and more neutral. However it is probably fair to state in colloquial terms that religion really is "Hogwash" (though clearly too mild a word to describe it in reality)

It's funny. You're as uncompromising in your convictions as the religious crowd is in theirs. I guess it's a love to hate thing.

Hogwash is just derogatory name-calling for something you don't like. You think religion is hogwash. They think what you think is hogwash.

Trying to have a dialogue about religion in those terms is a complete waste of time or, if you like, hogwash.

 

[AngelBoy]

Re: Is religion Hogwash?

It's funny. You're as uncompromising in your convictions as the religious crowd is in theirs ... You think religion is hogwash. They think what you think is hogwash

Hey – I have a nasty feeling your right – why else would an Atheist like me waste time on a “Religious forum” – except to try and convince other guys to turn away from the “god delusion”

I’ve actually argued that the use of emotive words like “Hogwash” is wrong as it colours any debate too much. – also maybe its actually too mild a word for what a lot of us feel about religion!

Maybe I don’t like the ideas religious people hold – but I still want to talk about it with them

 

[Shepherd 2]

There is no mention of HOMOSEXUALITY in the Bible. The Hebrew and Greek has no word for it. What you read anywhere is what some English translators have said is written.

My IVY degree allows me to say this with confidence.
Some do not want to believe it, and that is as problematic as the people who insiste that they believe anyhow.

I could go into a lengthy discourse, but the answer is still NO.

 

[Kulindahr]

Re: Is religion Hogwash?

Know its quoted out of context - but isn't that a big problem with religion - that it isn't actually true - again "Lie" is a bit emotive - so maybe "non true statement" is better and more neutral. However it is probably fair to state in colloquial terms that religion really is "Hogwash" (though clearly too mild a word to describe it in reality)

QUITE a clip out of context to use it to say something opposite from my meaning.
I'm saying that scripture IS true -- but that in order to get what these people are brainwashed with, they have to believe a lie. It's kind of like the statements of the Constitution -- they are true, but in order to get what the current and other administrations have out of them, one has to believe a lie.
And what a tangled web they weave....

 

[AngelBoy]

There is no mention of HOMOSEXUALITY in the Bible. The Hebrew and Greek has no word for it. What you read anywhere is what some English translators have said is written.

My IVY degree allows me to say this with confidence.
Some do not want to believe it, and that is as problematic as the people who insiste that they believe anyhow.

I’m beginning to think your definitely right as far as the New Testament is concerned.

Leviticus in the Old testament only says you should not lay down with a man like a woman – so standing up or kneeling would be OK?

I also love eating Pork ribs and shellfish – but his prohibitions against these aren’t so easy to get around.

 

[Spensed]

I’m beginning to think your definitely right as far as the New Testament is concerned.

Leviticus in the Old testament only says you should not lay down with a man like a woman – so standing up or kneeling would be OK?

I also love eating Pork ribs and shellfish – but his prohibitions against these aren’t so easy to get around.

Completely with you. This reminds me of the old Dr. Laura letter.


Dear Dr. Laura,

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's law. I have learned a great deal from you, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them.

When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. How should I deal with this?

I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as it suggests in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

Lev. 25:44 states that I may buy slaves from the nations that are around us. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans but not Canadians. Can you clarify?

I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 10:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

Lev. 20:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear prescription glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?
I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

http://www.rslevinson.com/gaylesissues/features/collect/drlaura/bl_drlaura009.htm

And even this leaves out cloths of mixed threads or fields with different crops.

But FYI I think those folk who argue otherwise also, amongst other things, typically bring in St Paul, where there's debate about whether the language objects to just 'mos or young working Temple 'mos.

The point is, I think, that the Bible has always been a text people would turn to their own purposes. As they say, even Satan can quote Scripture.

 

[AngelBoy]

Re: Is religion Hogwash?

QUITE a clip out of context to use it to say something opposite from my meaning.
I'm saying that scripture IS true -- but that in order to get what these people are brainwashed with, they have to believe a lie. It's kind of like the statements of the Constitution -- they are true, but in order to get what the current and other administrations have out of them, one has to believe a lie.

Hey - Kulindahr - Sorry - didn’t mean to reverse your meaning – but Im not now sure what you’re saying.

The US constitution says that all men are created equal – but George Washington would have died laughing if anyone had suggested that this applied to Blacks or Women.

I’ve been to his house at Williamsburg – sure he looked after his animals and black slaves well – but the thought that either of them had any rights would have been ridiculous to him.

Anyway – he didn’t die laughing at 21’st century ideas – most of the evidence says he was actually bled to death by his own doctors (a great tradition still followed by most HMOS)

 

[Kulindahr]

I’m beginning to think your definitely right as far as the New Testament is concerned.

Leviticus in the Old testament only says you should not lay down with a man like a woman – so standing up or kneeling would be OK?

I also love eating Pork ribs and shellfish – but his prohibitions against these aren’t so easy to get around.

There's nothing to "get around"; in the Book of Acts, the Holy Spirit makes plain that none of those proscriptions applies any more except to Jewish Christians.
It's so frustrating when people snip passages and don't read the whole thing!

 

[Kulindahr]

Re: Is religion Hogwash?

Hey - Kulindahr - Sorry - didn’t mean to reverse your meaning – but Im not now sure what you’re saying.

The US constitution says that all men are created equal – but George Washington would have died laughing if anyone had suggested that this applied to Blacks or Women.

I’ve been to his house at Williamsburg – sure he looked after his animals and black slaves well – but the thought that either of them had any rights would have been ridiculous to him.

Anyway – he didn’t die laughing at 21’st century ideas – most of the evidence says he was actually bled to death by his own doctors (a great tradition still followed by most HMOS)

Washington sought after ways to abolish slavery for much of his life. It was one serious wish he had for the new Republic, and for himself. Though several times he decided to end his ownership of slaves, commitments such as the determination to never break up slave families always interfered. Finally, though, in his will he gave his slaves their freedom, the only one of the Founding Fathers to do so.
Once they were free, Washington knew they would enjoy the free exercise of all the rights guaranteed by the Constitutionl

 

[AngelBoy]

Re: Is religion Hogwash?

Washington sought after ways to abolish slavery for much of his life ... Finally, though, in his will he gave his slaves their freedom, the only one of the Founding Fathers to do so. Once they were free, Washington knew they would enjoy the free exercise of all the rights guaranteed by the Constitutionl

Washington just didn't like his relatives much - which is why he gave away his estate and farm animals as well on his death. So he was not much better than the other "founding fathers" that did pass on their slaves and other property.

Enjoying the free exsrcise of their rights is only something Black people have won quite recently - for us gays there is still some way to go in the USA.

 

[darcey]

AngelBoy, you lost me w/ your mention of GW's home in Williamsburg. I've been to Mt Vernon, & seen the reconstructed "town dwelling" in Alexandria, but never knew GW owned a home in Virginia's colonial capital. And try to see the film version (as no stage version is mounted now) of the musical "1776". Many of the slave owning "founding fathers" rejected slavery, but were trapped by pure economics. Currently, not burning coal would help reduce air pollution, but the cost factor keeps coal in use. Money STILL talks (Loudly).

 

[Kulindahr]

AngelBoy, you lost me w/ your mention of GW's home in Williamsburg. I've been to Mt Vernon, & seen the reconstructed "town dwelling" in Alexandria, but never knew GW owned a home in Virginia's colonial capital. And try to see the film version (as no stage version is mounted now) of the musical "1776". Many of the slave owning "founding fathers" rejected slavery, but were trapped by pure economics. Currently, not burning coal would help reduce air pollution, but the cost factor keeps coal in use. Money STILL talks (Loudly).

Excellent point!
As I said, Washington for most of his life looked for a way to free his slaves, but the finances wouldn't work. He did refuse to separate slave families, let them celebrate holidays, and reduced his rotation of slaves thru buying and selling -- recognizing that they had their own community -- but the economics were such that he couldn't take that final step.
We know that economies with paid labor are economically more productive than those with slave labor, but slave labor provides a more dependable supply at certain stages of development. However, the transition from slave to paid workers tends to be chaotic because of the cost of changeover; that's true for an economy as a whole and for individual economic units within them.

Of course his attitude toward relatives influenced the way he broke up his estate, but it merely provided opportunity, not impetus.



Say -- how the heck did we get on this, from the main topic?

 

[AngelBoy]

Say -- how the heck did we get on this, from the main topic?

Sorry - my fault - was just trying to say that all ideas are relative to their social and historical context ( though I do think Washington and the founding fathers would not have extended "all men" to include blacks and women)

Also connected to the fact that Levictius was actuall contradicted in the New testament anyway (acts etc).

So the large scale homophobia in todays main stream Christian religions are not actually backed up by scripture.

In the same way - Jesus never said anything against condoms - but the modern day Catholic religion has condenmed many millions of people to death by preaching againt them.