Who could give me some advice about being gay and being religious.

[medic1]

^You have to realise that the "Bible" as we know it , was a creation of another "era" and back in "the day" all the things that you quite rightly point out , were as common as "dog-shit" is on our side-walks today .
Oakpope has made a very good post , you should not take "any" work of that age word for word , otherwise we would all be "stoned" .
You should "interpret" the words and put them into a semblance , that is "fit for purpose" , in the 21st Century .

That means all the negative as well as the "many" positive "parables" that members like you are more than happy to "hurl" about .

And yes i am a Roman Catholic , and regardless of their "position" on many things that i as a gay man find "objectional" i always will be .
Instead of throwing about all the "negatives" of ANY Religion , why don`t you also acknowledge the "positives".

 

[Melgum]

Which means that as a moral code it changes dependent on the changes in the Zeitgeist, which come from...where? That is the major problem that confronts all religions that place things down in books. Society moves on, the book stays the same. So apologists try to square the circle.

The problem with alleged words from God, are they open to interpretation? And how unambiguous does a statement have to be before it is taken to be something that cannot be reinterpreted. So can we re-interpret any of the ten commandments? Any aspect of Leviticus? If it is all open to interpretation then it becomes so elastic as to be meaningless. The challenge for any religious apologists is justifying where to draw the line.

And that is where wars begin. Not necessarily shooting and killing ones (but those as well) but wars of interpretation. How many Christian cults are there? How do they differ in their interpretations? Which one do you join and why? Once again, it comes down to either reading the bible, or just believing in the fluffy bits that accord with your prejudices, usually fed to you by someone else that salves your (non-Christian) beliefs about slavery being wrong, genocide being a bad idea and women being considered equal to men.

MM

 

[medic1]

Here is my "take" if "God" did not want us to evolve , then Adam would still be "shitting" in the garden and Eve , would still be pinching the apples .
As for "christian" cults how about all the "other" cults that are out there ?
Last time i looked it was "man" that started war , not "some" all mighty being , and i am sure you will fire back "in gods name" .
Many of the "miracles" that we read about , can be easily duplicated using today`s technology , up to and including "raising" the dead .
I respect your views , what a pity that you are so "narrow"minded , that you just will not respect other differing viewpoints .

Was typing as you posted , my comments were towards the member above you .

 

[Melgum]

Dejavudoo

At the risk of veering dangerously off-topic, this is quite and interesting and seemingly well-researched article

http://epistle.us/hbarticles/neareast.html

MM

 

[Melgum]

Here is my "take" if "God" did not want us to evolve , then Adam would still be "shitting" in the garden and Eve , would still be pinching the apples .
As for "christian" cults how about all the "other" cults that are out there ?
Last time i looked it was "man" that started war , not "some" all mighty being , and i am sure you will fire back "in gods name" .
Many of the "miracles" that we read about , can be easily duplicated using today`s technology , up to and including "raising" the dead .
I respect your views , what a pity that you are so "narrow"minded , that you just will not respect other differing viewpoints .

Well, the problem is there are numerous incidents in the Bible (contradictory of itself that it is) where God thwarts positive human development. Tower of Babel is a nice illustration.

For Genocide, try Samuel 15:2 and 15:3. A direct order from God, allegedly.

Of course you could argue that the Bible as a whole was written by men (who else after all?) but that leads to a whole host of additional theological problems as you then have to question every statement in it.

We could talk about Ahura Mazda, Cargo Cults, Mormons, various streams of Islam or Valhalla if you like. The thread assumed the questioner was some brand of Christian and he has not disagreed with that interpretation.

MM

 

[oakpope]

As I say, you cannot just pick and choose the fluffy nice bits that accord with your prejudices...

MM

But yes I can. Old Testament is full of advices for the Jews of that time. What doesn't apply anymore, doesn't apply anymore. Not that difficult to understand I guess.

 

[oakpope]

Which means that as a moral code it changes dependent on the changes in the Zeitgeist, which come from...where? That is the major problem that confronts all religions that place things down in books. Society moves on, the book stays the same. So apologists try to square the circle.

The problem with alleged words from God, are they open to interpretation? And how unambiguous does a statement have to be before it is taken to be something that cannot be reinterpreted. So can we re-interpret any of the ten commandments? Any aspect of Leviticus? If it is all open to interpretation then it becomes so elastic as to be meaningless. The challenge for any religious apologists is justifying where to draw the line.

And that is where wars begin. Not necessarily shooting and killing ones (but those as well) but wars of interpretation. How many Christian cults are there? How do they differ in their interpretations? Which one do you join and why? Once again, it comes down to either reading the bible, or just believing in the fluffy bits that accord with your prejudices, usually fed to you by someone else that salves your (non-Christian) beliefs about slavery being wrong, genocide being a bad idea and women being considered equal to men.

MM

Who said that religions should be dictatorships ? You ? For me religion is also about freedom. I am free to believe what I want, what matches my views of things. Catholicism matches those pretty good. Not entirely (gay relationships, place of women, contraception,etc), but the most important parts.

Messages like 'Love thy neighbors' are timeless and will be good for all human eternity, I believe. Messages like 'Don't eat shrimps', well, I believe those to be ignored safely.

 

[Melgum]

But yes I can. Old Testament is full of advices for the Jews of that time. What doesn't apply anymore, doesn't apply anymore. Not that difficult to understand I guess.

Who said so?

 

[medic1]

^See this is what i mean about "respecting" differing viewpoints , you make a very powerful and quite a persusive argument , which i can see and understand .
Ultimately it boils down to "personal" choice , i choose to believe in a "higher" being , you don`t , which is fair enough , even though you still will not acknowledge the "good" that comes from religion , and only seem to be able to focus on the "bad" . Again fair enough , though to "decry" without accepting is still rather "narrow-minded" .


Will need to learn to type faster , you know who my post is directed towards .

 

[Melgum]

Who said that religions should be dictatorships ? You ? For me religion is also about freedom. I am free to believe what I want, what matches my views of things. Catholicism matches those pretty good. Not entirely (gay relationships, place of women, contraception,etc), but the most important parts.

Messages like 'Love thy neighbors' are timeless and will be good for all human eternity, I believe. Messages like 'Don't eat shrimps', well, I believe those to be ignored safely.

I believe the Catholic Church is quite clear in its stance that it IS a dictatorship, it is just whether people choose to follow its orders or not now it has far fewer legal options for enforcement.

 

[medic1]

I believe the Catholic Church is quite clear in its stance that it IS a dictatorship, it is just whether people choose to follow its orders or not now it has far fewer legal options for enforcement.

^So today`s "Vicar of Christ" is a dictator ? Oh my , but don`t worry i will remember you in my "prayers"...........

 

[Melgum]

A very good read -- thank you.

It still begs the question that would persist today: how much do we know about any culture's view of homosexuals since the closeted behavior would likely be typical of a such a small minority?

I wouldn't be dismissive of the bits of law code we have surviving from the Middle East, but I also would hesitate to suggest that it implies anything about those in India, China, Sub-Saharan Africa, Celtic lands, the Americas, or any other culture.

I'm not eager to see the world through gay-oppressed lenses, but I am honest in disclosing that I view modern homophobia not as a recent development, only an evolved expression of it.

As sexuality was obviously an expression of male power in the ancient world (more so than any sentimentalized modern concept of romantic love), I would suspect that the ancient intergenerational aspect of mature males paired with adolescent males has been allowed to varying degrees for many centuries. I would still argue that power (material, physical, intellectual) is still a chief reason for this bonding. Now I am the one who is veering, although I would never suggest that it is dangerous.

I thought it was quite an interesting study, but there are tons more when you start mining this area. I think you could find that there are some synergies with India as there was some cultural exchange far earlier than with other parts of the world.

But, in terms of the value of inter-generational relationships I really recommend Davidson's Greeks and Greek Love, my copy was published by Phoenix.

I also accept that any critique of any religion should be far more broadly based than simply its opinion on Homosexuality. I find Zeus and Ahura Mazda as unbelievable as Yaweh (and Unicorns, Leprechauns and the Tooth Fairy for that matter).

MM

 

[Melgum]

^So today`s "Vicar of Christ" is a dictator ? Oh my , but don`t worry i will remember you in my "prayers"...........

Instead of spending time praying for me, have some sex like the Pope tells you not to...

MM

 

[medic1]

..........

Instead of spending time praying for me, have some sex like the Pope tells you not to...

MM

^ Ohhh That hurt...........NOT!!!!!..........Still not budging from your "concrete viewpoint about acknowledging the "good" as well as the "bad" in any "organised" religion ?

 

[Melgum]

..........
^ Ohhh That hurt...........NOT!!!!!..........Still not budging from your "concrete viewpoint about acknowledging the "good" as well as the "bad" in any "organised" religion ?

Lol...really...go have some fun!

Or, if you want to do something else, you could tell me about something 'Good' that could only be done by a religion.

MM

 

[wikke1]

Lol...really...go have some fun!

Or, if you want to do something else, you could tell me about something 'Good' that could only be done by a religion.

MM

And you about something "bad" that could only be done by a religion ?


And since you asked who told us to leave (certain parts) of the Old Testament behind us,
it was Jesus himself. Who was eventually put to death because he stood up against religious fundamentalists, condemning them for their behaviour and inteprretation of the word of God.
Jesus' message, as "the son of God", is the one I choose to live by, as a Catholic.


Matthew 23:13-39

New International Version (NIV)


Seven Woes on the Teachers of the Law and the Pharisees

13 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. [14] [a]

15 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.

16 “Woe to you, blind guides! You say, ‘If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gold of the temple is bound by that oath.’ 17 You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? 18 You also say, ‘If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gift on the altar is bound by that oath.’ 19 You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20 Therefore, anyone who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. 21 And anyone who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it. 22 And anyone who swears by heaven swears by God’s throne and by the one who sits on it.

23 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24 You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.

25 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.

27 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. 28 In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

29 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. 30 And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31 So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Go ahead, then, and complete what your ancestors started!

...


And of course, some other things he said:

"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." (Matthew 7:1-2 )

"My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you." (John 15:12 )

"And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you." (Matthew 5:40-42)

"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me." (Matthew 25:34-36)


And many more...

Why do some people want to convey that religion = fag hating fundamentalists?
Some clearly are, but they would be condemned for it by Jesus, who I want to believe in...
I don't expect you to do the same tho... But you asked, so I tried to answer, I'm not a theologist however, no pretention to be one.

 

[JayHawk]

Someone posted that you should read the bible and not exclude the bad parts.

However that is exactly what you need to do. The majority of the so called "bad parts" that refer to another time are invalidated by the coming of Jesus. You will find nary a word in the new testament that would cause you ill feeling. So find a church that is open, come as you are and believes in the bible and Jesus. You should not run afoul of anything being both christian and gay. However, do this for yourself and not for others in your family who are christian. If they are using Christianity as a reason to not accept you then you need to move on.

Here is a quote from a very well written argument on the subject.

Without an explicit directive from God to exclude and condemn homosexuals, the Christian community's treatment of gay persons is in clear violation of what Jesus and the New Testament writers pointedly identified as the most important commandment from God: to love one's neighbor as one's self.

Likewise the people who simply use their limited knowledge or the false witness of others to justify their personal hate of the church are just as guilty of being angry and misinformed. The sad truth is, for both the believer who rejects homosexuality and the non-believer who rejects the power of faith, both are misguided by ignorance.

 

[youfiad]

Being religious is silly. Religion is all about tradition and control. Have faith and find your own path if that's what suits you. Do go to a church that tells you you're going to hell.....

 

[Melgum]

And you about something "bad" that could only be done by a religion ?


And since you asked who told us to leave (certain parts) of the Old Testament behind us,
it was Jesus himself. Who was eventually put to death because he stood up against religious fundamentalists, condemning them for their behaviour and inteprretation of the word of God.
Jesus' message, as "the son of God", is the one I choose to live by, as a Catholic.


Matthew 23:13-39

New International Version (NIV)


Seven Woes on the Teachers of the Law and the Pharisees

13 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. [14] [a]

15 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.

16 “Woe to you, blind guides! You say, ‘If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gold of the temple is bound by that oath.’ 17 You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? 18 You also say, ‘If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gift on the altar is bound by that oath.’ 19 You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20 Therefore, anyone who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. 21 And anyone who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it. 22 And anyone who swears by heaven swears by God’s throne and by the one who sits on it.

23 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24 You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.

25 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.

27 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. 28 In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

29 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. 30 And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31 So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Go ahead, then, and complete what your ancestors started!

...


And of course, some other things he said:

"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." (Matthew 7:1-2 )

"My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you." (John 15:12 )

"And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you." (Matthew 5:40-42)

"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me." (Matthew 25:34-36)


And many more...

Why do some people want to convey that religion = fag hating fundamentalists?
Some clearly are, but they would be condemned for it by Jesus, who I want to believe in...
I don't expect you to do the same tho... But you asked, so I tried to answer, I'm not a theologist however, no pretention to be one.

I still cannot see, in all of this, where anything is said about things from the Old Testament no longer being valid, but just claims that the 'Pharisees and Teachers of Law' have become corrupt in their application of it.

As for evil only religion could do, that is easy. Only religion could convince someone that they, or their friends, will suffer after death for committing some misdemeanour.

What I find most interesting is your phrase 'Jesus, who I want to believe in'. It reminds me of Tutu's claim that he would not want to go to a homophobic heaven. In other words, looking around the Bible to find things that fit with current social norms or personal beliefs and ditching the rest. Nothing new or unusual in this, even in a secular context the CPSU used to wheel out quotes from Das Kapital to support whatever they wanted to do.

But even that leads to problems with regard to something like divorce, which according to the New Testament Jesus spoke about frequently and negatively. Would it not, then, accord with your stripped down version of the Bible just concentrating on his alleged sayings, for you to be hostile to and campaigning against divorce?

MM

 

[Melgum]

Someone posted that you should read the bible and not exclude the bad parts.

However that is exactly what you need to do. The majority of the so called "bad parts" that refer to another time are invalidated by the coming of Jesus. You will find nary a word in the new testament that would cause you ill feeling. So find a church that is open, come as you are and believes in the bible and Jesus. You should not run afoul of anything being both christian and gay. However, do this for yourself and not for others in your family who are christian. If they are using Christianity as a reason to not accept you then you need to move on.

Here is a quote from a very well written argument on the subject.



Likewise the people who simply use their limited knowledge or the false witness of others to justify their personal hate of the church are just as guilty of being angry and misinformed. The sad truth is, for both the believer who rejects homosexuality and the non-believer who rejects the power of faith, both are misguided by ignorance.

How about this for 'ill feeling' from the New Testament:

"Do you not know that the unrighteous and the wrongdoers will not inherit or have any share in the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived (misled): neither the impure and immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor those who participate in homosexuality" 1 Corinthians 6 9-10

or

"Knowing and understanding this: that the Law is not enacted for the righteous (the upright and just, who are in right standing with God), but for the lawless and unruly, for the ungodly and sinful, for the irreverent and profane, for those who strike and beat and [even] murder fathers and strike and beat and [even] murder mothers, for manslayers,[For] impure and immoral persons, those who abuse themselves with men, kidnapers, liars, perjurers--and whatever else is opposed to wholesome teaching and sound doctrine" from 1 Timothy 1 9-10

or

"Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire." From Jude 1:7

We still have endorsements of slavery, of course:

"Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart." Ephisians 5-6

I could go on, things like divorce and so on...

MM