Why are JUBbers so prejudiced against the religious/religion in general?

[Kulindahr]

Then of course the so called Xtians (I take the "Christ" out, because he never discriminated against gays, women or any other minority, as they do) who push a violent, racist sexist book as the end all be all of their religion, cherry picking only the parts they agree with.

You should remind us of that "Xtians" usage from time to time, because it's an important point. Jesus only ever did one thing that could be viewed as hateful, and that was chasing the merchants out of the Temple. But we have to remember why He did that: they had taken over a space that was supposed to be reserved for guests, so the guests couldn't attend! In other words, He got mean because people were keeping others from coming to God, but today's Xtians get mean and keep people from coming to God.

If every hour all the Campus Crusade for Christ type people spent cheering each other on and trying to get people to listen to "The Four Spiritual Laws", or fighting against perceived intrusions on their privileges, was instead spent finding fellow students in need and helping deal with those needs, I dare say we'd see a "revival" sweep our college campuses. Other students would be happy to see a Christian show up, instead of thinking, "Oh, great; here we go again".

 

[Kulindahr]

This was a pretty fascinating read:
http://www.randomhistory.com/history-of-gay-marriage.html

Very. There's something worth pointing out here, though:

Ultimately, the influence of a Christian focus on procreation as central to marriage became apparent in Roman law during the later empire.

Sexuality, in other words, and not just homosexuality came under attack by a growing religious belief that intercourse was meant only for the production of children. Ultimately, excessive sexual indulgence of any kind both inside and outside the bonds of marriage was prohibited by Christianity,....

That phenomenon very closely parallels the dominance of Aristotelian thought over the Bible and theology. The Bible makes no such case, but when the Aristotelian concept of the "final cause", i.e. the reason for being of a thing, is applied, then you get the notion that sex is only for procreation. It's part of what I consider the "Aristotelian heresy" which overtook Roman Christianity, a distortion that Protestants and Radicals inherited pretty much without question, and without realizing it (for the most part).

 

[unloadonme]

You're operating on a false premise.

Fair enough. I withdraw "medieval".

 

[brokegayguy]

This thread is still going? Guys, the OP literally asked earlier "who has told people that homosexuality is wrong?" This is a troll thread. Let's quit fighting and move on.

 

[xbuzzerx]

It's both trite and untrue to attribute war solely to religion or even predominantly. That assertion also blithely ignores the Asian and African wars that have also been based on race/clan/tribe, as well as territorial acquisition.

Smarten up. Do the math.

War is always about material acquisition regardless of its stated reasons or purposes. Even a defensive war is always "we want to stay in control of our materials and our power over them."

That said, without stance on the "which cause is responsible for more deaths" sidebar, religious difference often either is, or at the very least can be easily utilized, to create the widespread public distrust and hate of an outside group that makes causus belli against them a very easy thing for leaders. But the true motivations are nearly always material gain, even if for a scarcely seen tiny minority of powerful people.

Even leaders who are either legitimately insane, or "called/driven" by some greater vision, have to provide the material benefit of warfare to get the lower stratums of powerholders to get on board. It could be debated that Alexander the Great didn't actually give a fig about expanding landholdings or wealth, but most certainly all the people he depended on did, and he knew it.

 

[Kulindahr]

War is always about material acquisition regardless of its stated reasons or purposes. Even a defensive war is always "we want to stay in control of our materials and our power over them."

That said, without stance on the "which cause is responsible for more deaths" sidebar, religious difference often either is, or at the very least can be easily utilized, to create the widespread public distrust and hate of an outside group that makes causus belli against them a very easy thing for leaders. But the true motivations are nearly always material gain, even if for a scarcely seen tiny minority of powerful people.

Even leaders who are either legitimately insane, or "called/driven" by some greater vision, have to provide the material benefit of warfare to get the lower stratums of powerholders to get on board. It could be debated that Alexander the Great didn't actually give a fig about expanding landholdings or wealth, but most certainly all the people he depended on did, and he knew it.

Having read something over five thousand pages about the Crusades, I think that was an exception, at least from the top. The major impetus there was all the young noble sons running around with no lands, causing trouble -- calling a Crusade gave them something to do far away and out of sight. And the motive for most of them was "glory", which resulted in a reputation. Very few expected to actually gain lands to rule in a far foreign land, and fewer actually did.

 

[xbuzzerx]

Having read something over five thousand pages about the Crusades, I think that was an exception, at least from the top. The major impetus there was all the young noble sons running around with no lands, causing trouble -- calling a Crusade gave them something to do far away and out of sight. And the motive for most of them was "glory", which resulted in a reputation. Very few expected to actually gain lands to rule in a far foreign land, and fewer actually did.

It would have been far cheaper to pick something nearby-- some old feud with a neighbor-- than just so happening to pick the central focus of the spice trade and the window to trade with the east, which was fantastically wealthy.

 

[Alnitak]

This is a troll thread. Let's quit fighting and move on.

Case closed.

- - - Updated - - -

the Crusades

Case in point. The best thing to ever happen to the Jewish community.

Not.

 

[LuckysRevenge]

Case closed.

- - - Updated - - -



Case in point. The best thing to ever happen to the Jewish community.

Not.

Great contribution. Not surprised.

 

[MakeDigitalLove]

This thread is still going? Guys, the OP literally asked earlier "who has told people that homosexuality is wrong?" This is a troll thread. Let's quit fighting and move on.

I don't understand how this is a troll thread. And there are people who have a problem with homosexuality who don't consider themselves religious.

 

[Alnitak]

Great contribution. Not surprised.

Didn't expect you to. Some people can't handle how things really are.

 

[LuckysRevenge]

Any time humans organize anything, it means there are levels of power to be exercised. Any time there is power to be exercised, corruption is engendered.

Though WRT religion in particular, I don't think it being organized necessarily means it becomes bad -- I think the particular line there is when it becomes hierarchical.

I love the way you phrased this.

 

[LuckysRevenge]

Didn't expect you to. Some people can't handle how things really are.

And some people can't handle considering validity in any viewpoints but their own. It's understandable.

When I was a little child growing up, I never understood why people like my parents, my relatives, the people around me were born into poverty. I didn't understand a society that purposely kept individuals oppressed, hungry, homeless, etc. I never understood how a society could enslave, legislate against and openly discriminate against individuals because of the color of their skin.

How can anyone accept and understand such a world when it does not give them a chance... when the cards are stacked against them from birth in ways that are so unjust that it does not make sense. Do you put your faith in morality? Do you put your faith in human nature that has shown that it will never take your side?

There is a reason that African-Americans are historically so religious. It is because for many, it was the only way to keep living. To put faith in something outside of a cruel and hateful world. I understand that as well. I understand that some people need to make sense of the world during the short time they exist in it. To condemn these people. To laugh at them as if they are backwards neanderthals. To demean them as if they are your enemy and lump them with the religious right for example is lazy and willfully ignorant. And this is just one example. I choose not to be religious but I know for others like those in my family who have lived through times and experiences I cannot even imagine, being religious worked for them.

Religion can be a terrible tool. It can also be one's saving grace. It can facilitate terrible acts. It can also inspire the greatest elements of humanity.

But if you want to be haughty and dismissive, I understand.

 

[Ninja108]

Because for many of us here, religion has been as a justification to discriminate against us, that's why.

 

[Gentleheart]

Because for some of us gays (I didn't say ALL, or MANY...but for a fair number of us) religion and those who practice said "religion(s)" have been a pain in our ass for as long as we can remember.

So, forgive us if we have a little PTRD (Post Traumatic Religion Disorder).

I'm not going out of my way belittle, demean, or to keep people from practicing their religion. I have many friends and family members who are believers, but they know where I stand and it's left at that. I want no part of it.

 

[bort138]

If religion is a tool, it is an obsolete and dangerous artifact that belongs in a museum so we can look back unfavorably and with humility at a relic from a different time.

It would serve as a reminder of earliest attempts at morality and understanding of our universe so we can see how far we've come since then and continue moving forward.

 

[Alnitak]

And some people can't handle considering validity in any viewpoints but their own. It's understandable.

When I was a little child growing up, I never understood why people like my parents, my relatives, the people around me were born into poverty. I didn't understand a society that purposely kept individuals oppressed, hungry, homeless, etc. I never understood how a society could enslave, legislate against and openly discriminate against individuals because of the color of their skin.

How can anyone accept and understand such a world when it does not give them a chance... when the cards are stacked against them from birth in ways that are so unjust that it does not make sense. Do you put your faith in morality? Do you put your faith in human nature that has shown that it will never take your side?

There is a reason that African-Americans are historically so religious. It is because for many, it was the only way to keep living. To put faith in something outside of a cruel and hateful world. I understand that as well. I understand that some people need to make sense of the world during the short time they exist in it. To condemn these people. To laugh at them as if they are backwards neanderthals. To demean them as if they are your enemy and lump them with the religious right for example is lazy and willfully ignorant. And this is just one example. I choose not to be religious but I know for others like those in my family who have lived through times and experiences I cannot even imagine, being religious worked for them.

Religion can be a terrible tool. It can also be one's saving grace. It can facilitate terrible acts. It can also inspire the greatest elements of humanity.

But if you want to be haughty and dismissive, I understand.

Blah blah blah. Totally didn't read a word.

 

[IamNoah]

I used to be very, very religious.

In fact, I used to say that being Gay and Catholic was much easier than being Gay and black (and not because of black homophobia either).

But... One day. I just sort of calmly decided there wasn't a God, because were there a God, I could find no reason why He'd have made me belong to an ethnic community that was apparently considered undesirable by my pool of potential sexual/romantic partners--given that I loved Him. So that was that as far as belief in the Omnipotent, Benevolent, Personal God of Christianity.

After that I started noticing how belief in this kind of God tends to twist people up, make them judgmental, or angry, etc which led me into a pretty intense anti-religious period, which I'm mostly over now. Now having passed through intense faith and intense anti-faith and thanks to a nice health injection of New Age Woo from my husband, I respect all religions (particularly the Catholic Church, which has her psychological hooks in me in ways I can't explain); but practice none.