Why are JUBbers so prejudiced against the religious/religion in general?

[Willie Boy]

It is because organised religion is a hateful, bigotted, harmful thing
Organised religion created hate and persecution

No. The human mind created hate and persecution. The interesting thing is that religion (and the religious) were originally hated and persecuted, then came to power. Then fools from within turned the tables and began hating and persecuting as was done to them. Now we've come full circle and still nobody has learned anything.

 

[eastofeden]

Would you be disrespecting someone if as an adult they still believe in the Tooth Fairy?

I was thinking specifically within the context of spiritual beliefs so assuming the Tooth Fairy holds some kind of spiritual relevance I wouldn't really care if someone worshiped the Tooth Fairy or the Easter Bunny as it certainly has no effect on me one way or the other.

If they want to legislate their belief where it WOULD have an effect on me...or insist that I believe it as well ....it would be become annoying and worthy of disrespect ...and maybe dangerous.

 

[MakeDigitalLove]

Would "I just don't think homosexuality is right or natural" (without any religious trappings to the statement) qualify as a belief that should be respected?

I could see how that would fall under "moral superiority", but at the same time, almost any context where the topic of "you should respect other people's beliefs" comes up, it will be a case of someone invoking moral superiority-- either belittling someone for believing something, or claiming someone is wrong for not believing it. I had a hard time picturing a situation where it wouldn't involve one of those two things.

People in general whether about opinions or beliefs have a problem with trying to prove they are right or being superior about it. Personally I don't join discussions with the intention of changing peoples minds or beliefs because that just isn't going to happen. I just don't see the problem with what people believe in if they're not causing a stir with anyone around them about it. Just as much as I don't care with what people do with their lives or what makes them happy as long as they're not hurting anyone or themselves.

If what you believe or what you do in life makes you happy then fine, I am not going to sit there and try to tell you and dictate what you should do or believe in your life.

I've been with my boyfriend for 9 years and he is Catholic, I am not. He's never made himself superior or tried to force his belief on me, because of this my mind has change a decent amount of the years about religion/beliefs. Clearly if my boyfriend is capable of this there are others too, so that is why I don't disrespect peoples beliefs unless they disrespect me or others with them.

 

[borg69unimatrix]

Would "I just don't think homosexuality is right or natural" (without any religious trappings to the statement) qualify as a belief that should be respected?

I could see how that would fall under "moral superiority", but at the same time, almost any context where the topic of "you should respect other people's beliefs" comes up, it will be a case of someone invoking moral superiority-- either belittling someone for believing something, or claiming someone is wrong for not believing it. I had a hard time picturing a situation where it wouldn't involve one of those two things.

I'm inclined to think that if the whole Christianity/Jesus thing never caught on and we'd stayed with the pagan beliefs this wouldn't even be an issue. A certain amount of homosexuality existed back then that was, for the most part, a part of every day life. Had Alexander the Great lived longer, who knows where we'd be today.

 

[SLOPPYSECONDS]

get words white

planet earth no aprejuiced relgion ans oda group partys or a clubs ors a organsizations ors a instiootions a human ape doins
cause no spak human ape anyway ans supa human ape no cans read or a choice no a read obvious cause fa eons

there go ans happy endins fa a tem wot mak advantage a all supa human ape games play etc so on

next bit

so wot probs?

so nows a internet 2 discuss continue it whiles real world ova keep suckin da shit a eons a turds of great impotants
ans intenret 1 media ans etc carreer folk keep job playin ans public a -aghast dailys- ins a golbals a villarge of happy folk world ova
ans stuff


thankyou

there go fill bit mor thread

 

[xbuzzerx]

I'm inclined to think that if the whole Christianity/Jesus thing never caught on and we'd stayed with the pagan beliefs this wouldn't even be an issue. A certain amount of homosexuality existed back then that was, for the most part, a part of every day life. Had Alexander the Great lived longer, who knows where we'd be today.

Just as one example (I am certain there are others), Northeast Asia has never had more than the smallest tickle of exposure to either Christianity or Islam, has certainly never embraced either, and has plenty of homophobic sentiment.

I honestly think "ew, that's disgusting, and it flies in the face of being a real man" is a reaction that people have much earlier in their cognitive development than "my religion teaches that this is immoral and a sin against God, and therefore I'm required to dislike it even if I otherwise wouldn't." I think the latter becomes the excuse for holding onto the former idea lifelong without challenging it.

 

[pat grimshaw]

^ I think one could say the same about Africa.

 

[xbuzzerx]

^ I think one could say the same about Africa.

Considering the very heavy patchwork of extreme Christianity and extreme Muslim influences in Africa, no, I don't think that's relevant at all when we're discussing "what would have happened if not for Christian influence."

 

[borg69unimatrix]

Just as one example (I am certain there are others), Northeast Asia has never had more than the smallest tickle of exposure to either Christianity or Islam, has certainly never embraced either, and has plenty of homophobic sentiment.

I honestly think "ew, that's disgusting, and it flies in the face of being a real man" is a reaction that people have much earlier in their cognitive development than "my religion teaches that this is immoral and a sin against God, and therefore I'm required to dislike it even if I otherwise wouldn't." I think the latter becomes the excuse for holding onto the former idea lifelong without challenging it.

So you think it just boils down to gender roles, with or without religion ?

It would make sense since the gender roles in the first world countries where the definitive lines between gender roles are becoming more hazy are more tolerant of gays.

 

[rareboy]

Religion should ideally remain an individual and private matter.

And when brought into a community practise....should ideally be practised by its adherents as privately and unobtrusively as possible....without the idea of demonstrating whose God is holier, better or has the biggest dick or the most tits.

Adherents should not spend their time proselytizing...it is like teaching a pig to sing. It annoys the pig and wastes your time.

It should not have crusades or fatwas or rules about meat or what women should wear.

The problem is, many religions just can't shut the fuck up. And then neither can the people who eschew and despise religions.

Religion is why we can't have nice things.

 

[Alnitak]

OP,

You can answer that yourself.

 

[xbuzzerx]

So you think it just boils down to gender roles, with or without religion ?

It would make sense since the gender roles in the first world countries where the definitive lines between gender roles are becoming more hazy are more tolerant of gays.

In many cultures, yes. There is certainly evidence of cultures without western religions that did in some form accept some strains of homosexual expression-- but there was a moderately sized discussion in CE&P a few months back about how the notion that it was simply "openly accepted" in Greece and Rome have often been overblown by modern audiences. They were very very proscripted practices with sometimes dire social consequences for stepping out of those bounds in many cases.

I do however think that many cultures (religion aside) embrace certain male dominant and father dominant concepts which begin to set up fences and rules around male behavior and then the perception of what is masculine vs. what is feminine begin to become stark. In Asian cultures for instance there's a big emphasis on a male's dominant role as head of family and as the transmitter of the family lineage and name. I think western, and particularly American culture, also share this emphasized role of the male but for different reasons-- we don't really care all that much about the family line, but our culture has always glorified the imagery of warfare and the soldier, as one example... who has traditionally been a relatively young male.

Anyway, long story short is that cultural views on gender can and have created hostile climates towards homosexuality without any need for a religion telling them it's morally wrong. If we'd never had moralistic religions the world would probably still be a patchwork of many regions that frown on homosexuality and find it incompatible with the proper behavior of a "real man." You could be executed in ancient Sparta for failing to take a wife long enough as a soldier after finishing training, even though male homosexuality was compulsory within the Spartan military training system and men within it would reach their mid or late 20's having no experience of sex with women and knowing of sex only with men.

 

[MassRuss]

More wars have been started, more people killed, for religious reasons than any other reasons, in all recorded history.

Just in my lifetime, I've seen the wars ("troubles") in N Ireland between Catholics & Protestants, the "Arab/Israeli" wars, which seem to never end, & the different factions of Islam who kill & maim each other daily.

Then of course the so called Xtians (I take the "Christ" out, because he never discriminated against gays, women or any other minority, as they do) who push a violent, racist sexist book as the end all be all of their religion, cherry picking only the parts they agree with.

If someone is really religious, they should & do keep it to themselves. Religion has no place in my life by my choice. \

It should have no place in ANY government. Anyone who doesn't believe in the separation of church & state need only to read English history during the reigns of Henry VIII, Edward VI or Mary I, or the civil wars (Cromwell vs Charles I) or St Bartholomew's Eve in France, to see the horrors which happen when religion, in the form of a tyrannical zealot, obtains the upper hand in government

 

[borg69unimatrix]

In many cultures, yes. There is certainly evidence of cultures without western religions that did in some form accept some strains of homosexual expression-- but there was a moderately sized discussion in CE&P a few months back about how the notion that it was simply "openly accepted" in Greece and Rome have often been overblown by modern audiences. They were very very proscripted practices with sometimes dire social consequences for stepping out of those bounds in many cases.

I do however think that many cultures (religion aside) embrace certain male dominant and father dominant concepts which begin to set up fences and rules around male behavior and then the perception of what is masculine vs. what is feminine begin to become stark. In Asian cultures for instance there's a big emphasis on a male's dominant role as head of family and as the transmitter of the family lineage and name. I think western, and particularly American culture, also share this emphasized role of the male but for different reasons-- we don't really care all that much about the family line, but our culture has always glorified the imagery of warfare and the soldier, as one example... who has traditionally been a relatively young male.

Anyway, long story short is that cultural views on gender can and have created hostile climates towards homosexuality without any need for a religion telling them it's morally wrong. If we'd never had moralistic religions the world would probably still be a patchwork of many regions that frown on homosexuality and find it incompatible with the proper behavior of a "real man." You could be executed in ancient Sparta for failing to take a wife long enough as a soldier after finishing training, even though male homosexuality was compulsory within the Spartan military training system and men within it would reach their mid or late 20's having no experience of sex with women and knowing of sex only with men.

This was a pretty fascinating read:
http://www.randomhistory.com/history-of-gay-marriage.html

 

[Kulindahr]

There are actually real anti-Muslim cartoons in the thread?

Oh, yes.

And anti- JW, and I think some anti-Mormon.

 

[Kulindahr]

It's not that i dont believe in religion.

But being Christian, taught me to go to hell for liking guys.

So i just don't do religion much now.

Except Christianity as a whole doesn't necessarily embrace that position.

 

[Kulindahr]

It is because organised religion is a hateful, bigotted, harmful thing
Organised religion created hate and persecution

Any time humans organize anything, it means there are levels of power to be exercised. Any time there is power to be exercised, corruption is engendered.

Though WRT religion in particular, I don't think it being organized necessarily means it becomes bad -- I think the particular line there is when it becomes hierarchical.

 

[Kulindahr]

I can understand why religion flourished in an age of general ignorance. I'm also aware how much conflict and loss of life has been caused in the name of religion over the centuries. What I fail to understand is how otherwise intelligent individuals can, in the modern twenty-first century world, accept as credible the superstitious medieval claptrap which underlies religious belief.

I should add that my view has nothing to do with my sexuality. I don't believe for one minute that I would think any differently if I were straight.

You're operating on a false premise.

 

[Kulindahr]

You have to remember this: for centuries idiots that don't truly understand what the Bible teaches have been using misconceptions and twisted passages to belittle and beat down gays. Many gays don't forgive any better than anybody else. Hate breeds hate and there are so many who claim to be Christian but have nothing but hate in their hearts. They hate and become hated back. Only with the gays, many don't understand the difference between a true Christian and one who simply claims to be, therefore their hate is not targeted at just the guilty, but all. Its like that old phrase, kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out.

Well stated.

 

[Kulindahr]

Religion is why we can't have nice things.

Religion has also given us many nice things, so the proposition fails.