Why do straights hate gays? by Larry Kramer

[Chalchalero]

I think I'm with Soilwork. If you hide in your closet then you won't be respected or attain equality. You have to be out, sometimes in other peoples faces and demand and command respect. I'm out to family, friends and at work and have been out a long time. It takes balls to stand up for yourself and be who you are.

That's pretty easy to say in West Hollywood, doncha think???

 

[Chalchalero]

While as you mentioned to Soilwork, I may understand the sentiment, but what you so glibly have been gliding over in your posts, especially with the above comment, is that this legislation wasn't the act of some miracle where the legislature suddenly saw the light. It took an actual civil war, then further years of struggle and protest, and even then it was the out in the street protests (and sometimes the violent protests at that) that forced the government hand as well as changing public perception of the discrimination. By not being complacent, by refusing to be intimidated and terrorized any longer, by demanding that they be respected and demanding the rights the constitution and bill of rights afforded. It wasn't until people stuck their necks out on the line and made the hatred and violence visible, that things began to change, including re-interpretation of laws once considered constitutional becoming re-framed in ways that made the same laws unconstitutional and amended. It was the people standing up and getting caucasions to stand up with them in support and demanding respect and equal legal treatment that brought the legislative changes. In some respects, keeping yourself in a situation of abuse is a bit like being in an abusive domestic relationship. As a child there's not much you can do about it, but as an adult you have choices to get yourself out of that situation. Some people can do that on their own, some only with help, and some people can't and allow themselves to be abused forever.

I don't disagree with you. And my intention was not to be glib. Sorry you saw it that way. I felt that I had written enough and so did gloss over a few points without much detail. Perhaps that was lazy of me.

I am as much aware if not more than other people of how difficult it is to stand up for your rights and make people aware of the injustice that is being handed you. I grew up in a country where my being gay and black were both reasons for people to hate me. I had to fight for whatever I needed, even in my own family. It is the main reason I now live here and not there.

I do not believe that people who are in the closet are "living with abuse" per se. I don't know every individual who is in the closet right now so such a generalisation would be ridiculous for me. I do, however, believe that people need to realise that whether you are in the closet or out, there is going to be intolerance.

The scenarios you quite accurately depicted are true, I do not dispute that. But did they change the minds of the actual man on the street in the South? I don't think so. Today there are more hate groups and racist organisations than ever, and thanks to the internet, they can probably grow exponentially if they choose to. What matters is the law, not the individuals. Individuals who are small minded and full of hate are not going to change because you scream and protest at them.

People's opinions do not matter, the law does. Change the laws and you have equality. Change someone's mind, and you've got a pat on the back and a cup of coffee (maybe...)

I know which is more important to me.

 

[FabFairy]

I understand Soil's point of view because one of the common arguments put forward is that "If you can't be honest with yourself and others about being Gay then there must be something wrong with it." I also think that if everyone did come out then it would show that we are not a small minority but a community worthy of consideration.

We are our worst enemies to some extent because we don't stand up as a community making it easy for the self interest groups (religion or moral) to attack us. As for the unChristian Right's mantra, "hate the sin but love the sinner?" the line become blurred very quickly and they end up hating the sinner as well.

You may be born equal but that doesn't mean that you automatically gain equality or respect. You have to earn them

 

[Chalchalero]

While as you mentioned to Soilwork, I may understand the sentiment, but what you so glibly have been gliding over in your posts, especially with the above comment, is that this legislation wasn't the act of some miracle where the legislature suddenly saw the light. It took an actual civil war, then further years of struggle and protest, and even then it was the out in the street protests (and sometimes the violent protests at that) that forced the government hand as well as changing public perception of the discrimination. By not being complacent, by refusing to be intimidated and terrorized any longer, by demanding that they be respected and demanding the rights the constitution and bill of rights afforded. It wasn't until people stuck their necks out on the line and made the hatred and violence visible, that things began to change, including re-interpretation of laws once considered constitutional becoming re-framed in ways that made the same laws unconstitutional and amended. It was the people standing up and getting caucasions to stand up with them in support and demanding respect and equal legal treatment that brought the legislative changes. In some respects, keeping yourself in a situation of abuse is a bit like being in an abusive domestic relationship. As a child there's not much you can do about it, but as an adult you have choices to get yourself out of that situation. Some people can do that on their own, some only with help, and some people can't and allow themselves to be abused forever.

I have been re-reading this post and feel that I must take exception to your first sentence. I was not glibly gliding over anything. If you read my first post, I was quite clear in my defence of Larry Kramer for the things that he has done for this community and the fact that were it not for him, we would not be in the position we are in today. He had to fight for our right to simply exist and not just left to die as the AIDS epidemic was wiping out our numbers like a plague. I am well aware of the struggles involved with changing things on a fundamental level for people. But I do firmly believe that what we are dealing with now is not so much people's opinions of us, but rather our legal status in this country.

Spain, which is arguably one of the most Catholic countries in Europe has approved same-sex unions. Mexico is pondering the same thing, while the DF and the some states in Mexico have already done so. Do you think the majority of the people who live in these countries supported that? I doubt it. Sometimes it takes the legislatures to move these things in the right direction and think a bit ahead of the populace. If we were to sit and wait for the local yokels to decide when blacks could recieve equal treatment, I still would not be allowed to vote. But Lyndon Johnson was the one who decided that waiting was no longer an option and here we are today.

I am aware that it takes alot more than that, so please do not again accuse me of being glib. I'm just saying that people like Larry Kramer had the right idea when they went above the heads of the small minded populace and got governments to listen to them. People are provincial by nature and resistant to change. Sometimes it has to be forced on them.

 

[Chalchalero]

Actually, they did, and not just those in the south but for a great many people (other than the most hardcore supremacists), it did change the perceptions toward not only the oppressed but toward the oppressors and terrorizers if in no other way than to make them less complacent. It also took the will power of those in power, once the laws were changed, to actually enforce those laws, and even then sometimes with a great deal of militaristic type force. (And by militaristic I mean that not in a figurative sense but in actual armed forces being called in to enforce the laws.)

I, too, don't disagree with you that laws need to be changed, but in the case of states who have passed laws and constitutional amendements (and if you review your history even federal law), you cannot rely totally on the hope of a legal change in the law. Laws can be changed, and have been, not only to prevent discrimination but to actually make it unconstitutional to assist us or to enact anti-discrimination legislation.

So again, it's not a one solution meets all needs situation. It requires not only political activism but also transformational activism, that one on one of changing the heart and minds of people one person at a time through the mundane activities of day-to-day daily living.

Maybe the fundamental difference between you and me is that I am more cynical than you are. I don't have the faith in human nature that you have and tend to believe that people have to be forced into change, they will not do so willingly. Especially not when it comes to issues which challenge their core values of which homosexuality certainly is one.

On such issues, one has to bypass the masses and go straight to your legislators because waiting for the puny minds of individuals will achieve absolutely nothing in the short term. Sure, somewhere down the road, maybe in fifty years or so, this may all be moot. But are you willing to wait that long? I know I am not.

 

[JNewYork]

Quite honestly, he's right.

It's one of the reasons that I spew open distain for all you... I'm sorry... losers who live in the closet.

Oh, you're the first ones to make it all about you... "My Daddy won't understand" or "My friends don't think it's Macho" or "I won't inherit the family jewels."

You cling to your desperate and pathetic closets as if the world will end if you came out.

The problem is that it's not going to start turning until we all do.

It's a lot easier to hate us if you can't see us.

So THIS, my closeted friends... is entirely your fault. I have no sympathy for any of you, and your excuses are tired and empty. In the end, you don't want to come out for your own selfish and spineless reasons.

You don't deserve to live equally or even that happily. You haven't earned it.

Did you fully read Kramer's article? He says the MORE visible we become the more hated we are becoming.

Also, what about YOUR hatred, YOUR intolerance, YOUR lack of understanding?

You are no different from a hetero hatemonger.

I'm glad that YOU are out. Don't demand and expect that every gay person joins you.

Your remarks show insensitivity to the process of coming out and acceptance. You are condemning and judging--just like a hetero hatemonger.

 

[Hard Luck]

I can't see what it's got to do with being out of the closet so much as being militant or in some way working actively towards the goal of equality.

There are plenty of out people who are not contributing to that cause. I don't think we should jump to the logical fallacy that because closeted people are unlikely to be working for gay rights, out people automatically are.


Mere "visibility" is better than nothing ... but it does next to nothing to stem the institutional hatred that the article speaks of.



So before we go berating people who aren't out, and blaming them for our woes ... where's the blame for every gay man who's not on the front lines of political action?


Frankly, my personal harmony demands that I refrain from intense political activity. Am I to be burned at the stake for that? Or are my life choices my own? And, truth be told, though I'm all for gay rights ... it would be 10th on my list of things to be politically active about changing.


Huzzah to the people who are working towards good causes of all kinds. Huzzah to the people leading good lives.


It's tempting to blame the victim. But it's simply not right.

 

[Soilwork]

....blah......bla.......ahl......bl....l.....lalala................




And in the end, I haven't changed my mind but I sure have heard a lot of the same shit.


"Oh WHAAAA... I can't come out and MY reasons are SO much different than EVERYONE ELSE's."

In the end, everyone who has an excuse for not coming out is just making excuses. And hollow ones at that. I got a weepy PM from some guy a couple days ago asking me why I didn't like him. Honestly, I'd never taken notice of him before, but when I asked him why he couldn't come out when he had gay friends and the thought that most of his friends knew anyway, his reasons was "I like older men and people might think that's wierd."

Now, someone seemed to think I was advocating "outing" people. I certianly never said anyone should be outed. I think everyone should out themselves. I've never heard an actual reason that isn't "I'm selfish" or "I have no guts" for not coming out yourself.

Oh... there's all those "Cultural" reasons to be out... "I might be shunned" or "They woudlnt' understand in my community." Well, why do you care about what people who would "shun" you would think anyway, and maybe it's time your community got dragged into the 21st century.

I knew that I'd get slaughtered for that comment but I'm not bakcing off of it. I've been told by SO many people that I've personally changed the minds of LOTS of straight people in my life simply by being out. Not by making a big deal of my sexual orientation, not by constantly talking about it or working it into every conversation or forcing people to look, but just by being me.

I'm not Spiderman. I don't have any powers that the rest of you don't.

Yes, it would be nice if we didn't have to fight for equality. Alas, it would also be nice if I was 6 feet tall and had a full head of blonde hair. (I can't have that, either.)

We need to live in this universe under the rules that if you want something, you have to go get it.

...and for all that crap about "It's pretty easy to say in West Hollywood," I grew up in a farming village of 1500 people on the North Atlantic Canadian shore. Dont' tell me I don't know what it's like to live in a small town where everyone knows your business.

We may not all be the same, and I know I don't ever want to meet bunch of you guys in real life. But that being said, we're al gay and we're going to have to do this together.


Now that I got that out... I wanna address this..

I disagree with this assertion, because you are blaming the victim here. A woman is raped and so it must be because she dresses like a slut? This is 1950's era thinking.

People are intolerant out of ignorance and hatred. That is their problem and not the problem of the people they hate. That's like telling me that if I would just act a little bit more white and maybe bleach my skin a little, then maybe there wouldn't be Neo-Nazis and KKK members wishing me dead. It's my own damned fault they hate me, I should have been white.

I sat there for about 20 mintues trying to figure out how this had any connection to my arguement and I now have a head ache. It makes no sense, has no connection to my arguement at all and is just there to make me look like a Nazi. I think.

I never told anyone they should act "More straight" or that they deserve the hatred because of the way they act or dress. In fact, I told them they deserve it because of the way they DON'T act.


You are right.. bullying people out of the closet isn't going to help. But when you're 25 years old, have known that you're gay since puberty and you're still cowering in the closet, I think you're lame. And gutless. And weak. And yes... I think YOU are partially to blame for the world not being a bit more accepting towards gay people.

And I know I'm right.

 

[JNewYork]

It's not "cowering" in the closet. It's simply not choosing to let everybody know that they're gay. You sure are not at a loss to come up with words to degrade and insult your own kind.

You don't "know" you're right, either.

You're an angry, mean-spirited, homophobic individual. Yes, homophobic. You are angry at gay people. It's misguided.

Put your anger at STRAIGHT people. Nobody "cowers" in the closet, but you certainly prostrate yourself before straight people.

You've gotten praise from them and have been told you "changed their mind." So you in effect are now the pseudo straight who has been accepted to the straight party and now can feel accepted. To further your feelings of inclusion in the straight group, you will continue tearing down gays.

I'd rather be one who "cowers" in the closet and be respectful to my fellow gay people than be a despicable hatemongering turncoat who seeks to ingratiate himself to the straight population while condeming his own.

You should be ashamed of yourself for your hate.

But you won't be. Because you, as you insist you are, are "right."

Yeah, Okay, if you say so.

 

[Soilwork]

it's stroking my ego to point out I'm short and bald?

or that I've heard every arguement before and I think they're all bullocks?

 

[Soilwork]

It's not "cowering" in the closet. It's simply not choosing to let everybody know that they're gay.

Well thanks for clearing THAT up.

You sure are not at a loss to come up with words to degrade and insult your own kind.

You're an angry, mean-spirited, homophobic individual.

well, as long as we're not coming up with words to denigrate people.

You've gotten praise from them and have been told you "changed their mind." So you in effect are now the pseudo straight who has been accepted to the straight party and now can feel accepted. To further your feelings of inclusion in the straight group, you will continue tearing down gays.

I'd rather be one who "cowers" in the closet and be respectful to my fellow gay people than be a despicable hatemongering turncoat who seeks to ingratiate himself to the straight population while condeming his own.

WTF? I hang out almost exclusively with gay men. I ride in a gay motorcycle club and I organize a gay biker night in Los Angeles once a week. I even produce a series of short videos about the guys who come on the rides with us... Just because I'm out to straight co-workers and people in my life doesn't make me a "turncoat."

You should be ashamed of yourself for your hate.

No no.. it's out of love. I hate seeing people waste their time an I hate seeing people be weak. Call me kooky.

But you won't be. Because you, as you insist you are, are "right."

Yeah, Okay, if you say so.

and I do.

 

[Soilwork]

OK, now that that's over...

I can only call them like I see them.

I know that my formerly homophobic friends in college changed their attitudes pretty quickly once they saw that their friend Jasun was gay. It helped them see that gay people are just people.

I know that my formerly homophoic parents went thorugh a period of adjustment and are now embarrassing P-flag people. Marching in Parades and speaking at public events and on the radio about having two gay sons.

I know that when I don't make a big deal about it but honestly explain to the bank manager that I have to make sure that my boyfrined will be looked after in the event of my death and what changes do I need to make, I get a lot more respect than I do if I pretend he's a "friend."

I know that the straight models at Fratmen are much more comfortable with ME, the out of the closet kinky fuck than they are with the closted gay Fratmen that they KNOW are gay but won't say anything.

Straight guys are more comfortable with an uncomfortable truth than a comfortable (and transparent) lie.


I've been out for longer than many of you have been alive and I've seen it or heard it all. None of the arguements (or names) thrown at me in this thread are new.

And yeah, I'm kinda being mean to closeted men... hey.. I see no need to coddle them.

 

[Chalchalero]

....blah......bla.......ahl......bl....l.....lalala................




And in the end, I haven't changed my mind but I sure have heard a lot of the same shit.


"Oh WHAAAA... I can't come out and MY reasons are SO much different than EVERYONE ELSE's."

In the end, everyone who has an excuse for not coming out is just making excuses. And hollow ones at that. I got a weepy PM from some guy a couple days ago asking me why I didn't like him. Honestly, I'd never taken notice of him before, but when I asked him why he couldn't come out when he had gay friends and the thought that most of his friends knew anyway, his reasons was "I like older men and people might think that's wierd."

Now, someone seemed to think I was advocating "outing" people. I certianly never said anyone should be outed. I think everyone should out themselves. I've never heard an actual reason that isn't "I'm selfish" or "I have no guts" for not coming out yourself.

Oh... there's all those "Cultural" reasons to be out... "I might be shunned" or "They woudlnt' understand in my community." Well, why do you care about what people who would "shun" you would think anyway, and maybe it's time your community got dragged into the 21st century.

I knew that I'd get slaughtered for that comment but I'm not bakcing off of it. I've been told by SO many people that I've personally changed the minds of LOTS of straight people in my life simply by being out. Not by making a big deal of my sexual orientation, not by constantly talking about it or working it into every conversation or forcing people to look, but just by being me.

I'm not Spiderman. I don't have any powers that the rest of you don't.

Yes, it would be nice if we didn't have to fight for equality. Alas, it would also be nice if I was 6 feet tall and had a full head of blonde hair. (I can't have that, either.)

We need to live in this universe under the rules that if you want something, you have to go get it.

...and for all that crap about "It's pretty easy to say in West Hollywood," I grew up in a farming village of 1500 people on the North Atlantic Canadian shore. Dont' tell me I don't know what it's like to live in a small town where everyone knows your business.

We may not all be the same, and I know I don't ever want to meet bunch of you guys in real life. But that being said, we're al gay and we're going to have to do this together.


Now that I got that out... I wanna address this..



I sat there for about 20 mintues trying to figure out how this had any connection to my arguement and I now have a head ache. It makes no sense, has no connection to my arguement at all and is just there to make me look like a Nazi. I think.

I never told anyone they should act "More straight" or that they deserve the hatred because of the way they act or dress. In fact, I told them they deserve it because of the way they DON'T act.


You are right.. bullying people out of the closet isn't going to help. But when you're 25 years old, have known that you're gay since puberty and you're still cowering in the closet, I think you're lame. And gutless. And weak. And yes... I think YOU are partially to blame for the world not being a bit more accepting towards gay people.

And I know I'm right.

We are all individuals, so, yes, a person's reasoning for remaining in the closet is a special reason for them and they have the right to decide for themselves. I understand the feeling of superiority one gets when one realises that he has come out against all of the odds and against all of the negative reactions that such a move will inevitably entail, and I congratulate all who have done it.

My coming out was not so difficult because I was already living here in New York far away from my family and I didn't really depend on them for my emotional well-being. I had friends and a network of people who were kind and supportive, not nasty and bullying and calling me gutless if I didn't do as they said. Personally, I think that if anyone does it just because someone has called them a name, then that really is gutless and they will have earned it.

I am sad that I do not sense a real empathy or understanding for others in your posts. You talk about how we're all in this together and then you rail on insultingly about how your way is right and those who don't agree with you are gutless. That sort of intolerance plays well in Middle America but is really not what other gays, particularly those who might just be questioning whether or not to come out really need right now. That kind of fascism is all too prevalent in the gay community however, and it disappoints me.

I'm glad you've changed people's minds. Some people need to be bullied into things. Some actually enjoy it. Bully for them. That doesn't mean that everyone does or that it is even right to belittle them until they come to way of thinking. People are going to make decisions based on what is right for them and not what is right for you. That's just life, and the very nature of the freedom we now enjoy. We can now decide whether or not to come out of the closet, we are no longer obliged to remain in it. Neither are we obliged to come out, however.

My coment regarding Nazis was in response to your assertion that closeted people are responsible for the intolerance directed at gays in general. I said that this was like blaming the victim and then I used racism as an example. I did not and am not calling you a Nazi, I assure you.

What in the world makes you believe that coming out will make the world more accepting of gays when gays cannot even be accepting of one another's individuality within the gay community completely befuddles me.

 

[sissyboy]

Larry Kramer is right…A lot of straight people hate us and we let them. Many gays allow that hate by sitting in their little closets and not having the balls to say, “Fuck You, This is MY life and you have no right to judge the way I live it”. It’s the same sort of thinking that led so many people to death camps during WWII.

I applaud Soilwork, Chalchalero,TZero and a few others that seem to be grounded in reality and understand the truth in what Larry Kramer says. I’m betting that all of you have had bigotry and hatred aimed right at you and have dealt with it. There are others posting here (no names mentioned, but you know who you are) that should hang their heads in shame. Here’s a little story for you..

Some years ago, when we still lived in the suburbs in a small municipality surrounded by many other larger municipalities, we had hate brought right to our doorstep. It came in the form of a homophobic cop who, in his own words “wanted our faggot asses out of his community”. Ignoring the crack dealers next door, he used his authority to pursue his agenda of hate. We got tickets for high grass (we hadn’t had time to mow that week), he’d wait by the corner of our street and pull us over regardless of the time or circumstances. He got the village board to issue citations claiming that we were living in violation of local zoning laws. Our house was zoned as a “single-family dwelling” meaning that everyone in residence had to be related by blood or marriage. This means that I could have had 25 people living there, as long as we were all related, but the 2 of us living there was illegal because we weren’t legally related. The ACLU and our lawyer pointed out that we had been in the house for 6 years at that point and that both of our names appeared on the occupancy permit. We weren’t trying to hide anything. We also pointed out that 2 of the local cops (not the one that started the trouble) were sharing a house two blocks away from ours. Under the threat of very public and very expensive legal action, the village board dropped the issue quickly and quietly. Our lawyer then requested a restraining order to keep the cop in question from continuing to harass us. That didn’t happen, but he was ordered to leave us alone on pain of disciplinary action. (Side note…a month or two later, they found him dead in his prowl car. He had suffered a major stroke while on duty. We viewed it as karmic retribution) We ended up leaving several years later for completely different reasons (my boyfriend’s mom needed us), but we left with our heads held high. We were not chased out.

Now we live outside of small town. We know that our neighbors talk about us. We don’t care. We do nothing to hide what we are or what we’re about. They don’t accept us, but they do leave us alone. Whether out of respect, ignorance or fear, I don’t know and quite frankly I don’t care as long as they continue to leave us alone.

I guess what I’m trying to say is that you can live out in the light and enjoy a degree of freedom, pride & self-respect or you can hide in your closet, living behind the walls built out of fear and shame. You can’t hang around waiting for things to get better. Sometimes you just have to plant your feet firmly and refuse to give in.

We never wanted to be poster boys for anything. We didn’t start the fight, but we weren’t going to run from it either and until the rest of the world realizes that we(as a community) won’t go quietly, nothing is going to change and it’ll still be OK to hate the fags…

 

[Ninja108]

And I bet all the homeless teens who have been thrown out of their homes for being gay can be proud of that right? They may not have a place to stay, food to eat and other things but hey, they had the balls to come out right?

 

[Soilwork]

And I bet all the homeless teens who have been thrown out of their homes for being gay can be proud of that right? They may not have a place to stay, food to eat and other things but hey, they had the balls to come out right?

I think I mentioned something about the age of 25 in there?

Not many 25 year old teenagers. (although there's a few senior citizens here who sure act like it)

 

[Pushover]

Woah...everybody put your gerkins back in your pants and stop waving them about.

I think this constitutes as the same problem african americans had during the 60's. It's not enough that we have to speak out about it, but we have to be active about it, put our ideas out there, yet come out as a unified whole, not the 100 different opinions and 'groups' seen in this thread.

If you want a civil rights movement; fine. If you want to be treated fairly like everyone else; fine. But for goodness sakes, be unified within the gay community first before you go bashing down walls and holding a rally.

And they say straight people have big egos. You guys are worse. No wonder nothing ever gets done; you're too busy fighting amongst each other than fighting for each other.

 

[Soilwork]

Nor will I.

I can see a bigger picture, but I guess caring about the whole community makes me a bully.

Caring about your own selfish needs works for some people.


(in the short term)

 

[Pushover]

Wow, even being civil you guys are oozing poison. This is better than a play.

 

[Pushover]

So the fact that you belong to this group of supressed people only makes it more personal, or does it make you fight harder?