deleted/oh never mind, why bother?/i'll just put on some classical music./eM
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Why do straights hate gays? by Larry Kramer
- Thread starter metta
- Start date
Pushover
Made of Win and Awesome
Nightmare, I get what you're saying about not liking anyone being mistreated; i'm the same way, just a little less vocal about it. But would you say that being part of this group makes it at least a little more personal? I would take it more personal because of the 'opposing side' lacks an understand of how you feel and live, not because it directly affects me.
S
Soilwork
Guest
IT's why he's my role model.
dpnice
JUB 10k Club
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I can't understand the fervour with which you all attack Soilwork. He is right in what he says, perhaps he could be a little more sympathetic and understanding but that doesn't deny that he is right in his opinions.
We want people to have equal rights in law, we want them to be able to express themselves freely without discrimination but at the same time we are saying stay in your closets if coming out will cause heart-ache and difficulties and just wait till things get better.
Being out changes people's regard on homosexuality and that is probably most evident in your own circle of acquaintences. Acceptance is easier when you see someone you know and respect is gay.
Soilwork is right that all the reasons for not coming out are, as painful and difficult as they may be, excuses if you are searching for equality and freedom.
Understanding and acceptance has to be fought for and it can't be won by the few, everyone should participate in some manner even if it is just letting one person know that you are gay.
There are so many arguments for not coming out, loss of job, discrimination in a closed society, rejection from family, violence, etc. but is the environment within which you are hiding worth all the depression, frustration, lies and lack of freedom experienced?
Please just ponder on Soilwork's opinion rather than his manner of expressing it. Can't you see the truth behind his comments.
We want people to have equal rights in law, we want them to be able to express themselves freely without discrimination but at the same time we are saying stay in your closets if coming out will cause heart-ache and difficulties and just wait till things get better.
Being out changes people's regard on homosexuality and that is probably most evident in your own circle of acquaintences. Acceptance is easier when you see someone you know and respect is gay.
Soilwork is right that all the reasons for not coming out are, as painful and difficult as they may be, excuses if you are searching for equality and freedom.
Understanding and acceptance has to be fought for and it can't be won by the few, everyone should participate in some manner even if it is just letting one person know that you are gay.
There are so many arguments for not coming out, loss of job, discrimination in a closed society, rejection from family, violence, etc. but is the environment within which you are hiding worth all the depression, frustration, lies and lack of freedom experienced?
Please just ponder on Soilwork's opinion rather than his manner of expressing it. Can't you see the truth behind his comments.
Pushover
Made of Win and Awesome
This is why i've decided to come out at 23 and not wait for a more socially crippling time.
I, for one, am not attacking Soilwork. In fact, I tend to agree with him a bit, I just disagree with his methods.
I, for one, am not attacking Soilwork. In fact, I tend to agree with him a bit, I just disagree with his methods.
Jory
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Personally I don't think me being out..and I am does anything for the gay movement just me
S
Soilwork
Guest
yeah... it's true... some people make an omlette by mxing eggs in a bowl.
I just hit the chicken with the frying pan.
But we both get our point out, don't we?
I just hit the chicken with the frying pan.
But we both get our point out, don't we?
dpnice
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But I disagree. You have by being out made others realise that gay people exist in real life and not just on television sit-coms depicted as flaming queens. That they are ordinary people just like themselves.
That in itself, in my opinion, is step towards equality; at least of acceptance and equality of respect and treatment if not a legal one.
Coming out changes other's lives in subtle ways that often political agression doesn't.
Right on, Chalchalero!
Soilwork is an insensitive bully.
Maybe he's just jealous of those of us who don't walk around obviously gay or telling the world we're gay and thus don't have the "gay" label to most.
I think he resents us because if HE has to endure then everybody else must.
If he wants to be a dyke on a bike and parading himself around as Mr. Gay, 24/7, that's his choice.
One wonders if he made his choice why can't he be at peace? Nope, he's full of rage and bitterness.
Wonder why? It's as I've said. He's jealous. If HE had to endure than everyone else must.
No thanks, Soilwork. I'll leave you to your gay gang and your bullying.
I'll continue to be unadvertised gay and loving my life.
Soilwork is an insensitive bully.
Maybe he's just jealous of those of us who don't walk around obviously gay or telling the world we're gay and thus don't have the "gay" label to most.
I think he resents us because if HE has to endure then everybody else must.
If he wants to be a dyke on a bike and parading himself around as Mr. Gay, 24/7, that's his choice.
One wonders if he made his choice why can't he be at peace? Nope, he's full of rage and bitterness.
Wonder why? It's as I've said. He's jealous. If HE had to endure than everyone else must.
No thanks, Soilwork. I'll leave you to your gay gang and your bullying.
I'll continue to be unadvertised gay and loving my life.
S
Soilwork
Guest
J, you really have to stop making assumptions about people you don't know.
Insensative Bully... that's fair. I'll admit that openly.
I'm not "obviosuly gay" in any way. I'm just a guy. I'm just a regular guy.
(if anyone says "straight acting," I WILL hunt you down and kick your ass so hard my foot will get stuck.)
Nor do I walk about telling the world I'm gay. I just don't make any attempt to hide it. If it comes up, it comes up.
I live on my own terms, thanks, and I dont' feel the need to hide anything from anyone at any time. Pity you feel you do.
I'm not sure what you think I have to "endure" by being out. I'm not sure what you think I'm jealous of... that I don't have all that closet baggage to carry around?
That I dont' have to pretend to like tits or laugh at gay jokes when they're told in my presence? Geez, I wish I had THAT problem.
You go on and live however you want to live. Hope it works out for you.
I'm also confused, I have to say by the quick gear-shift you did when berating me. At one point you were down on me for having straight friends that just accept me for being gay. Then you were down on me for having gay friends.
If that your problem? You have no friends?
(OH, and I know you're trying to hurt my feelings by calling me a Lesbian. The Dykes on Bikes ride cruisers... I ride a sport bike. like... please....)
Insensative Bully... that's fair. I'll admit that openly.
I'm not "obviosuly gay" in any way. I'm just a guy. I'm just a regular guy.
(if anyone says "straight acting," I WILL hunt you down and kick your ass so hard my foot will get stuck.)
Nor do I walk about telling the world I'm gay. I just don't make any attempt to hide it. If it comes up, it comes up.
I live on my own terms, thanks, and I dont' feel the need to hide anything from anyone at any time. Pity you feel you do.
I'm not sure what you think I have to "endure" by being out. I'm not sure what you think I'm jealous of... that I don't have all that closet baggage to carry around?
That I dont' have to pretend to like tits or laugh at gay jokes when they're told in my presence? Geez, I wish I had THAT problem.
You go on and live however you want to live. Hope it works out for you.
I'm also confused, I have to say by the quick gear-shift you did when berating me. At one point you were down on me for having straight friends that just accept me for being gay. Then you were down on me for having gay friends.
If that your problem? You have no friends?
(OH, and I know you're trying to hurt my feelings by calling me a Lesbian. The Dykes on Bikes ride cruisers... I ride a sport bike. like... please....)
Pushover
Made of Win and Awesome
I find myself wanting to read a post, get halfway through, then not want to read for fear of responding in a rude manner. You're not alone in not wanting to read the whole post of some people here.
E
Endlight
Guest
As a Canadian member in this club, I am happy to state that today, I am represented by a gay alderman in Ottawa, my city and the capital of my country. A gay young man lost the last mayor election but only because there was a wind of change and he sort of got voted out with the whole slate. Next Monday, in the province of Quebec, our neighbour, a gay man is neck to neck with the incumbent Premier, (our equivalent to your USA Governors).
Gays have made inroads here, and while we do not have full equality for them, as can be found with spouses and hetero mariages, it is on the Horizon.
Two of our major accomplishments are gay mariages, and exporting a virulent gay "out of the closet" chap, too often on this board, south of the border.
Gays have made inroads here, and while we do not have full equality for them, as can be found with spouses and hetero mariages, it is on the Horizon.
Two of our major accomplishments are gay mariages, and exporting a virulent gay "out of the closet" chap, too often on this board, south of the border.
NickCole
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Larry Kramer is right.
And Soilwork is right as well.
As Bette Midler once said of gay men: "For Christ sake, speak up! Don’t you people get tired of being stepped on?"
The gaggle of gay men who are so scared of not being liked that they sell out their integrity and authenticity to those who have nothing but contempt for us, diminish us all.
to all the gay men who stand up, speak out and are passionate in their outrage.
And Soilwork is right as well.
As Bette Midler once said of gay men: "For Christ sake, speak up! Don’t you people get tired of being stepped on?"
The gaggle of gay men who are so scared of not being liked that they sell out their integrity and authenticity to those who have nothing but contempt for us, diminish us all.
to all the gay men who stand up, speak out and are passionate in their outrage.There's one life and there's no return and no deposit
One life so it's time to open up your closet
Life's not worth a damn 'til you can say, hey world
I am what I am
One life so it's time to open up your closet
Life's not worth a damn 'til you can say, hey world
I am what I am
Jory
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I see him more as a Dutch Uncle someone who tell is as it is
Oh I really dont think so
We all have our own demons to endure
no he parades himself as just a regular Joe I've seen it in person
Bullshit
Of you or me? I don't think so
Enjoy
shinero
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From what I read in this article, Larry Kramer's main point is this:
"Gays do not realize that the more we become visible, the more we come out of the closet, the more we are hated. Don't those of you straights who claim not to hate us have a responsibility to denounce the hate?"
To me, he's saying no matter how many gays come out of the closet; it will do no good until our straight allies (our straight brothers and sisters) join this movement with the same reverence that the whites did with the blacks in the 60's for the civil rights movement. I respect people for wanting to show people that it's good to leave the closet, but that will not be enough if we can not band our supposed straight allies and hold them to thier words of support.
For me this article was not able coming out of the closet, it was about gays making sure that they have their straight allies put thier money where thier mouths are. If we are to take the streets in marches and protest then our straight allies need to know that they must be there also to denounce the hate.
"Gays do not realize that the more we become visible, the more we come out of the closet, the more we are hated. Don't those of you straights who claim not to hate us have a responsibility to denounce the hate?"
To me, he's saying no matter how many gays come out of the closet; it will do no good until our straight allies (our straight brothers and sisters) join this movement with the same reverence that the whites did with the blacks in the 60's for the civil rights movement. I respect people for wanting to show people that it's good to leave the closet, but that will not be enough if we can not band our supposed straight allies and hold them to thier words of support.
For me this article was not able coming out of the closet, it was about gays making sure that they have their straight allies put thier money where thier mouths are. If we are to take the streets in marches and protest then our straight allies need to know that they must be there also to denounce the hate.
Negasta
JUB Addict
To quote Richard Dawkins: "Let's not forget the elephant in the room, an elephant called religion."
Rali_hates_Mondays
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And there's no need to condemn all of them either. I don't understand what you're trying to do by directing your hatred against closeted gays. It's only going to deter gay people from coming out and joining you in your fight for equality. Shouldn't this be directed against the homophobic people and institutions who are reponsible for putting them in the closet in the first place?
S
Soilwork
Guest
When you've been beaten down, are you going to whine to the people who beat you down, or are you going to stand up?
your choice.
gay people should not need to come out of the closet. if they don't want to, that's their choice.
i don't tell people how much money i make. it's none of their business. i don't tell them my religion either. none of their business.
it's none of their business that i'm gay either.
my partner knows, my family knows, my friends know. i don't need to let anyone else know.
guys who are quiet about their homosexuality: good for you. don't let these angry gays tell you that you must do anything.
if larry kramer doesn't understand why gays are hated, maybe he should look at soilwork and himself. turnoffs for sure.
i don't tell people how much money i make. it's none of their business. i don't tell them my religion either. none of their business.
it's none of their business that i'm gay either.
my partner knows, my family knows, my friends know. i don't need to let anyone else know.
guys who are quiet about their homosexuality: good for you. don't let these angry gays tell you that you must do anything.
if larry kramer doesn't understand why gays are hated, maybe he should look at soilwork and himself. turnoffs for sure.
lyconthrope
Is The Alpha Female
I don't think anyone specifically is "responsible for putting gay men in the closet" this to me suggest that it has been known since birth that this person was gay and has been forced into hiding.
Everyone has their reasons for coming out/staying in and I know that given the current climate and attitudes it can be extremely frightening, and its no small wonder why so many gay men feel too intimidated or hated to want to tell even those closest too them.
But to my view, staying in the closet because you fear how the world will treat you does more harm than good. If you come out and be proud it is true you may face hostility, however staying in the closet could make it seem as if you thought you had something to be ashamed of, something to hide.
But it has to be realised that in some parts of the world homosexuality is still something you can be arrested for, in more extreme cases you can be executed for it, regardless of an individuals reason it is still their choice.
stating your opinion on their choice isnt bullying, its an opinion, no one is saying you have to follow the opinions offered, you dont even have to read them.
But everyone deserves their chance to voice that opinion
Everyone has their reasons for coming out/staying in and I know that given the current climate and attitudes it can be extremely frightening, and its no small wonder why so many gay men feel too intimidated or hated to want to tell even those closest too them.
But to my view, staying in the closet because you fear how the world will treat you does more harm than good. If you come out and be proud it is true you may face hostility, however staying in the closet could make it seem as if you thought you had something to be ashamed of, something to hide.
But it has to be realised that in some parts of the world homosexuality is still something you can be arrested for, in more extreme cases you can be executed for it, regardless of an individuals reason it is still their choice.
stating your opinion on their choice isnt bullying, its an opinion, no one is saying you have to follow the opinions offered, you dont even have to read them.
But everyone deserves their chance to voice that opinion