why don't all blacks support gays?

[Apollo]

Racism will never die. Oh, it'll seem to "die" off, or "die" down, but then, when least expected, it'll lurch back to it's feet like the proverbial Thriller Zombie and come dancin' in the streets firightening your nonsame ethnicitiy dates.

Yeah it crops up on JUB at least twice a year.

Same with religion and intense in-fighting.

Ahh the violent seasons of JUB.

 

[CupCake]

I dunno if this has been mentioned before but black Americans circa the 1960s are an entirely different breed from black Americans in 2009.

They were driven and organized, we're lost and unorganized. They had unity and causes to fight for, we're killing each other in record numbers and our main priorities are owning expensive cell phones and clothes from Italian designers.

Obviously this isn't all black Americans but they seem to be the majority.

I think that everyone has went their own way now... In the 60s it was about coming together and fighting for a cause BUT since there is no more segregation I think people do not really care about being black anymore but instead their own personal self and goals.... And expensive cell phones and Italian designer lovers is an AMERICAN thing not just black right?

Gays on the other hand are the ones coming together now and marching for their rights and once they get their rights they will join the human race like everyone else is and go their own way too...

 

[Apollo]

All part and parcel.

Tea?

yes please. Could I try a bit of that Assam tea you mentioned earlier?

 

[Fucker29]

More important than that is why don't all people accept gays, bisexuals, lesbians, transexuals, transgenders, hermaphrodites, etc, etc? Why people are so afraid of "different"?

 

[MystikWizard]

I know I am going to get some groans at this thread being resurrected again, but after taking a couple days away from it, I think we should press onward. Especially while we have the multiple race threads on Hot Topics at the moment.

Well, the first step is reaching out to gay black leaders. Giving them help and support to talk to people.

Gay Black Leaders? Like who? It doesn't seem like you know, either based on your response below ....

I have no idea where the gay black leaders are.


They aren't as vocal or well known as the white people.

Is that so? Well, maybe you can tell me who you feel the "Leaders" are of the White Gay "Community" who is supposedly "leading" the movement?

Mostly because media and such doesn't bother to care about the plight of black people. And gays in the media certainly don't give a shit who is a gay black leader.

I am sure Google can help.

Well, I am pressed to identify who the "White Gay Leaders" even are, who is supposedly leading this movement.

And being that you are expecting someone to actually "reach out" to Blacks and that it hasn't transpired, I think Black Gays are interpreting it as Racism, where as I am saying that there simply isn't a cohesive "Community" amongst White Gays that you may think there is.

Like as stated earlier, Whites don't tend to look at ourselves as a "Community". We share a common skin color, but I don't think we like to think of ourselves as a "Community" as many Blacks do. And that is because we prefer to view ourselves as more individualized and uniquely different. We don't like all being lumped into the same particular category. And I would hope that as opposed to wanting to view themselves as a "All for one, one for all" type Community, that many Blacks would like to move in the direction of individualism, as well. After all, who likes being lumped all into one particular category?

But again, the point was I feel that you are expecting some group to reach out to you that simply really isn't a cohesive community-type group.

However furthermore, relationships are a two way street. Who from the "Black Gay Community" (if we wish to assume there is a cohesive one) has reached out to the "White Gay Community" (Again, assuming there is a cohesive one)?

We have to keep in mind that I have heard many Blacks in this thread say that they are "Black first and Gay second". And the reasoning behind it is because one's skin color is the more noticeable characteristic and many Gays can attempt to hide their Orientation to make it less ... or even not noticeable at all. But, at the same time, we know Gays are out there. But .... how many Gays that you see online are truly Out, compared to how many are in hiding? Sure, you see us online hiding behind our computer screens, but again I think the problem is that the term "Community" is simply how we identify with other Gays. There is no real set Community since so many Gays are in hiding in public.

So the argument of blaming the "White Gay Community" for not reaching out to Black Gays or the entire "Black Community" for that matter, I believe is an argument without merit.

Furthermore, I am just wondering if any Black Gays on here who feel that White Gays aren't "reaching out to them", have asked White Gays who exactly reached out to "Us" from this so-called Gay Community. My answer to that question .... "Absolutely nobody." I wish more Whites, Hispanics, and Asians would come in here and tell everyone who exactly "reached out to them from the Gay Community" as well. My guess is not many will say that anyone did. And again, that is because Gays are not truly a cohesive "Community" per se, as compared to Blacks.

Now to your point about reaching out to Black Church Leaders, who essentially control the direction of the "Black Community". As it pertains to how Gays are perceived, I definitely think the Church Leaders are continuing to fan the flames of homophobia while using religion as an excuse. Going to the Churches themselves, I don't think would accomplish a damn thing. I don't think it would amongst Black Churches, just like I don't think it would do any good for Whites to do it with predominately White Churches.

What I think needs to happen, is that people need to break free from Organized Religion on their own. I can tell you that no Gay Groups that I am aware of went to Churches to any real degree to "change the Church's stance and feelings on Homosexuality". That didn't transpire with Whites. What transpired is that through education, talking with people online, having thought-provoking discussions amongst families, friends, etc .... that this is what lead to more people breaking free from the influence of the Church amongst Whites. And along the way, people's opinions changed about Homosexuality, as well.

I simply feel the same thing needs to happen with Blacks and Hispanics. We are talking about having conversations about religions with family members, peers, etc. and perhaps engaging in some debate. In other words, instead of going to the Gay Community's worst enemy in the Church, who is not going to do anything to help Gays, as any concession that Homosexuality is a "choice", would reflect very negatively on the Church. And these individuals make their living preaching from this Book. So I don't see any progress even being made there at all.

But, having these conversations at home and with friends and other peers, is what I think is the best course of action is to achieve the goal of reducing the influence of the Church in the Black Community.

 

[BabiGayPimp]

Where at? If i missed it, then i'm wrong, but i certainly didn't see an answer.

Splatter, I've tried to be diplomatic in explaining to Mystic why the issue of being black in the America's often takes precedence over gayness in the minds of many african americans, based on their experiences.

To the biased observer a black person is always black and always a target for discrimination and disparate treatment. You can't neatly "fold up" your blackness and put it away when it is convenient or advantageous to do so.

Some recent, racially charged and hostile situations I've been subjected have been outrageous.

One observation I've made in my own life is that racial bias actually gets worse the higher up the corporate and social ladder you climb, whereas homophobia decreases with soclal altitude.

 

[Apollo]

Gay Black Leaders? Like who? It doesn't seem like you know, either based on your response below ....

Walk into a black church, ask to speak to the Reverand. Theeere you go.

Call a church, as to talk to a reverand, possibly one of the deacons. Theeere ya go.

Is that so? Well, maybe you can tell me who you feel the "Leaders" are of the White Gay "Community" who is supposedly "leading" the movement?

there are none, and according to some people, you guys don't want one. But of course, you can always go to an organization and talk to them. I am sure it isn't that hard.

Well, I am pressed to identify who the "White Gay Leaders" even are, who is supposedly leading this movement.

And being that you are expecting someone to actually "reach out" to Blacks and that it hasn't transpired, I think Black Gays are interpreting it as Racism, where as I am saying that there simply isn't a cohesive "Community" amongst White Gays that you may think there is.

Sorry, this thread was dead. Interpreting what as racism?

Like as stated earlier, Whites don't tend to look at ourselves as a "Community". We share a common skin color, but I don't think we like to think of ourselves as a "Community" as many Blacks do. And that is because we prefer to view ourselves as more individualized and uniquely different. We don't like all being lumped into the same particular category. And I would hope that as opposed to wanting to view themselves as a "All for one, one for all" type Community, that many Blacks would like to move in the direction of individualism, as well. After all, who likes being lumped all into one particular category?

Not white people apparently.

And it isn't about being lumped into one category. You don't seem to understand the concept of a strong community. You have have a strong community and still practice individualism.

It was originally about helping each other through the plight they all faced as a race, and as a people.

But again, the point was I feel that you are expecting some group to reach out to you that simply really isn't a cohesive community-type group.

I would hope a non-profit group fighting for rights would have a strong cohesion, or else they aren't going to be effective.

However furthermore, relationships are a two way street. Who from the "Black Gay Community" (if we wish to assume there is a cohesive one) has reached out to the "White Gay Community" (Again, assuming there is a cohesive one)?

IDK, why don't you go and ask them.

So the argument of blaming the "White Gay Community" for not reaching out to Black Gays or the entire "Black Community" for that matter, I believe is an argument without merit.

Lets move past this "white gay community" the gay community should reach out to the black community. And if you don't, then don't expect votes from them. Plain and simple.

It isn't just white people fighting for the rights of all gay people. And it isn't split into black and white sects fighting for these rights either. It is a bunch of gay people working for our full rights. White, black, latino, asian, arab, etc.

Furthermore, I am just wondering if any Black Gays on here who feel that White Gays aren't "reaching out to them", have asked White Gays who exactly reached out to "Us" from this so-called Gay Community. My answer to that question .... "Absolutely nobody." I wish more Whites, Hispanics, and Asians would come in here and tell everyone who exactly "reached out to them from the Gay Community" as well. My guess is not many will say that anyone did. And again, that is because Gays are not truly a cohesive "Community" per se, as compared to Blacks.

Usually when people have a real common bond, they create the community, no matter how uncohesive, and that is that. Take for instance the gay areas of major cities. It is a place where tons of gay migrate to to create businesses and a sort of "safe zone" for people of their kind.

Now to your point about reaching out to Black Church Leaders, who essentially control the direction of the "Black Community". As it pertains to how Gays are perceived, I definitely think the Church Leaders are continuing to fan the flames of homophobia while using religion as an excuse. Going to the Churches themselves, I don't think would accomplish a damn thing. I don't think it would amongst Black Churches, just like I don't think it would do any good for Whites to do it with predominately White Churches.

As I said above. Go to any church, talk to the reverand or deacons, or both. If that doesn't work, go into the community.

Really, just go into the communities and talk to the people.

What I think needs to happen, is that people need to break free from Organized Religion on their own. I can tell you that no Gay Groups that I am aware of went to Churches to any real degree to "change the Church's stance and feelings on Homosexuality". That didn't transpire with Whites. What transpired is that through education, talking with people online, having thought-provoking discussions amongst families, friends, etc .... that this is what lead to more people breaking free from the influence of the Church amongst Whites. And along the way, people's opinions changed about Homosexuality, as well.

Yeah, and that TOTALLY worked right? Get out of your comfort zone and talk to people who you think won't listen to you, or support you. If you make a compelling argument, then they will most likely vote for you. Hell, they might even convince others.

But hey, if you want to go talk to your mom and dad about why should vote yes for gay rights, go right ahead.

Your not going to break anyone free from religion. Not enough for votes. You can only convince them that they are believing in the wrong principles of the Bible or their respective religion.

I simply feel the same thing needs to happen with Blacks and Hispanics. We are talking about having conversations about religions with family members, peers, etc. and perhaps engaging in some debate. In other words, instead of going to the Gay Community's worst enemy in the Church, who is not going to do anything to help Gays, as any concession that Homosexuality is a "choice", would reflect very negatively on the Church. And these individuals make their living preaching from this Book. So I don't see any progress even being made there at all.

But, having these conversations at home and with friends and other peers, is what I think is the best course of action is to achieve the goal of reducing the influence of the Church in the Black Community.

You will loose more people by trying to demonize their religion than make friends. So going that route is stupid. Not to mention, a lot of gay guys are religious themselves and do believe in God and the bible. And there is NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT.

The better option is to talk to people about religion and remind them that Jesus didn't preached hatred and preached love and acceptance etc etc. Convince them to follow the good sides of the bible, and that the bible doesn't really demonize anything. You'd get a lot further than telling them why they are wrong for believing in God. You might even keep your life.

 

[Apollo]

Of course.

Milk/cream and sugar?

Yes please!

 

[bankside]

Splatter, I've tried to be diplomatic in explaining to Mystic why the issue of being black in the America's often takes precedence over gayness in the minds of many african americans, based on their experiences.

To the biased observer a black person is always black and always a target for discrimination and disparate treatment. You can't neatly "fold up" your blackness and put it away when it is convenient or advantageous to do so.

Some recent, racially charged and hostile situations I've been subjected have been outrageous.

One observation I've made in my own life is that racial bias actually gets worse the higher up the corporate and social ladder you climb, whereas homophobia decreases with soclal altitude.

Do you not think there is a peril to a person's psyche in thinking he can avoid dealing with an aspect of his own being? One of the greatest tragedies I see on JUB is when people acknowledge spending years of their lives trying to twist their true selves out of existence, desperately maiming their own identity in an effort to please their parents and their friends. Some people are even asking if it is worth trying. Sometimes dealing with life is harder if you have the option to hide from reality. It cultivates a lack of courage and a willingness to lie even to yourself.

I've always thought that one of the greatest comforts in facing the hardships of racial discrimination is the fact that the person's family has been there. They may have some practical advice, or at least they know how it is. With gay people, it is often the family that makes the casual, cruel rejection and demands the casual, cruel self-deception, the self-annihilation in the name of heterosexual conformity.

 

[Jersey Domino]

More important than that is why don't all people accept gays, bisexuals, lesbians, transexuals, transgenders, hermaphrodites, etc, etc? Why people are so afraid of "different"?

I don't know.

I would LOVE the answer to this.

 

[MystikWizard]

Walk into a black church, ask to speak to the Reverand. Theeere you go.

Call a church, as to talk to a reverand, possibly one of the deacons. Theeere ya go.

What's stopping you from doing it, may I ask? How many Reverends and Deacons have you spoken to? Oh, that's right. None.

And I need to understand why you give the Church so much power. That is a conscious decision that the Black Community does.

Gays did not make progress with Whites by reaching out to the Churches, which is my point. And it is common sense as to why. If you have staunch religious beliefs, and a Church that interprets the Bible as the literal word of God, and in that book, it preaches that Homosexuality is an "Abomination of God" just like this .... you expect to change these pastor's minds? Bullshit.

Quite frankly, I think it's pathetic how the Church controls people. And I just think it's a damn shame that so many within the Black Community allows it to.

People like you, who are on the Internet, know better, too. Yet, tell me what you have done to initiate any thought-provoking debate about the topic of religion? Judging by the rest of your post ... not a damn thing. Because you are too worried about what other people within your Community will think of you by doing so.

There is a right way and a tactful way to initiate these discussion .... and then there is a wrong way. There is absolutely nothing wrong with initiating these discussions correctly.

Appealing to the Churches are not the answer. You, reaching out to Friends, Families, and Peers ... IS the answer.

That's how I feel Whites did it. And there is no excuse why you can't.

We didn't go to the Churches, because we know the concept is absurd.

It's called Individualism and the concept of Free-Thought .... and using your Brain.

there are none, and according to some people, you guys don't want one. But of course, you can always go to an organization and talk to them. I am sure it isn't that hard.

Let me know when you plan on going.

And it isn't about being lumped into one category. You don't seem to understand the concept of a strong community. You have have a strong community and still practice individualism.

We don't want to be considered in a "Community", as I have stated. We don't like to be grouped in "Communities" who all have the same goals and ideologies. What's the difference between that, and a flock of sheep?

Even our Churches aren't all that Community-Oriented. Like I said, people see each other Sunday, and won't see each other for another week or 2-3 weeks ... or whenever the parishioner decides to attend mass, again.

We don't want the "Community Label". I long for the day to see more Blacks take a stand and say the same thing.

It was originally about helping each other through the plight they all faced as a race, and as a people.

I would hope a non-profit group fighting for rights would have a strong cohesion, or else they aren't going to be effective.

IDK, why don't you go and ask them.

Why don't you? You seem to want everyone else to do the work for you.

Lets move past this "white gay community" the gay community should reach out to the black community. And if you don't, then don't expect votes from them. Plain and simple.

Because we've gone back to Square One, again. There is no real "Gay Community". It is merely a label for Gays to identify with.

Where is the Black Gay Community based out of, out of curiosity? Again, who are it's leaders?

And just a side question, how many Gay Black celebrities are completely out? How many can you name?

As I said above. Go to any church, talk to the reverand or deacons, or both. If that doesn't work, go into the community.

Like I said. Let me know when you plan on going, too. Maybe we can meet up and make a day out of it.

Really, just go into the communities and talk to the people.

Again, let me know when you plan on doing so.

Yeah, and that TOTALLY worked right? Get out of your comfort zone and talk to people who you think won't listen to you, or support you. If you make a compelling argument, then they will most likely vote for you. Hell, they might even convince others.

You are ignoring the fact that this is contrary to what one learns from the Church Leaders, who the Black Community has given unlimited power to, by choice. If the Church Leader tells its parishioners that they are "going to Hell", by supporting what "God detests" .... who will the people be more likely to believe? Their Community leaders who control the Churches, or the Fags walking down the street who look like they took a wrong turn somewhere?


If Whites and Asians are able to break the bonds of religion on their own, and get under the 50% vote mark on their own (dependent upon geographic region, of course) ... I would like to know what the excuse is?

But hey, if you want to go talk to your mom and dad about why should vote yes for gay rights, go right ahead.

Can you imagine if every Gay child did the same, and were able to convince their parents, siblings, and extended families to do so, also? Co-workers, peers?

I can guarantee you that no Gay Groups marched up to the Priests/Deacons to get them to go against "The Book". People woke up on their own. Again, what is your excuse?

Your not going to break anyone free from religion. Not enough for votes.

Well, evidently Whites did something right, as less people are religious amongst Whites, than Blacks, who are considered the single highest Religious group by Race in the country. So something happened which resulted in the White Vote for Prop 8 getting below that 50% mark. Same with Asians.

If Whites and Asians could do that on their own, without Church leaders being intercepted, then again, what is your excuse?

You will loose more people by trying to demonize their religion than make friends.

Ah. But you missed the entire point of this whole thing. YOU need to be the ones who are talking to YOUR friends. YOUR peers. YOUR families. The people who you already have a bond with and have influence over.

Who do you think will have the greater success rate in changing people's perceptions? Strangers or Friends/Family/Peers??

And I dare say that I am willing to go out on a limb and bet that more people are out amongst Whites than amongst Blacks/Hispanics. Again, just look at the number of White Celebrities that have came out versus the number of Black celebrities that have come out. And like I theorized, it's because homosexuality is despised in the Black Community, overwhelmingly.

When you are dealing with the bonds of religion, which are very strong and very tight ... the only thing that can perhaps shatter one's beliefs on a religious topic like this, is family or friends/peers. More Blacks must step up and have these conversations with each other.

The bottom line is that you are not using your "Community" and your ties to it, to your fullest advantage. And it is because, in my opinion, because you are apathetic to the Cause.

So going that route is stupid. Not to mention, a lot of gay guys are religious themselves and do believe in God and the bible. And there is NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT.

I think I explained why it is a more effective method than trying to get Church Leaders to have their minds changed that what they are preaching is wrong. Again, this is HOW the Churches MAKE THEIR LIVING. Gays are a threat to their very existence, and that is why Churches overwhelmingly try to oppose Gays and Gay Rights. It is a fruitless effort.

As far as Gays believing in God and the Bible, I dare say that the overwhelming number of Gays are not religious. I, for example, am Agnostic ... although I lean very strongly toward there being a Creator. I just don't believe it is the same Creator as outlined in the Bible. I don't believe it is any Creator represented by any Organized Religion currently in existence or any no longer in existence.

So, I think it is very plausible to believe in "God", yet not believe in the Bible.

Infiltrating Churches is not the answer. View it like a Sales and Marketing position, with using your "leads" in order to make that sale. In this case, your leads are "friends, family members, peers, etc.". They are the people that YOU already have influence with and therefore the same people who's minds you are more likely to sway.

The better option is to talk to people about religion and remind them that Jesus didn't preached hatred and preached love and acceptance etc etc. Convince them to follow the good sides of the bible, and that the bible doesn't really demonize anything. You'd get a lot further than telling them why they are wrong for believing in God. You might even keep your life.

And I think that's great. Now, let me ask you a question.

Would YOU rather have those conversations with people YOU (as in you, personally Apollo) know ... or would you rather have that conversation with YOUR pastor? Who do you think you would have a greater chance of succeeding with?

 

[Apollo]

And I need to understand why you give the Church so much power. That is a conscious decision that the Black Community does.

I am going to have to ask you to just think for yourself on that question, or look back through this thread. I already answered that question.

Gays did not make progress with Whites by reaching out to the Churches, which is my point. And it is common sense as to why. If you have staunch religious beliefs, and a Church that interprets the Bible as the literal word of God, and in that book, it preaches that Homosexuality is an "Abomination of God" just like this .... you expect to change these pastor's minds? Bullshit.

Gays didn't have to. White people weren't as staunchly religious as black people. That passed awhile ago. You aren't aren't dealing with white people for votes hun.

And not all strongly religious people believe this. If you want to talk to a paster/reverand, it is your choice. I just said you didn't have to if you don't want to.

But if you at least tell him where your coming from, share your own sob story etc etc, then you might get a positive response. But who knows. No one is ever going to try.

Quite frankly, I think it's pathetic how the Church controls people. And I just think it's a damn shame that so many within the Black Community allows it to.

Well that is your opinion. And it doesn't control anyone, people don't have to go to church, and they don't have to listen. A lot of people don't.

But hey, you don't like religion as it is, so whatever.

People like you, who are on the Internet, know better, too. Yet, tell me what you have done to initiate any thought-provoking debate about the topic of religion? Judging by the rest of your post ... not a damn thing. Because you are too worried about what other people within your Community will think of you by doing so.

I have been in countless threads about religion. There was a week when the number of religion threads were too much. Kinda like this week and religion.

I am tired of talking to anti-religion people. All you guys sound like the people you hate. You preach the same shit, just from a different point of view. I am tired of reading it, and listening to it, and talking about it.

There is a right way and a tactful way to initiate these discussion .... and then there is a wrong way. There is absolutely nothing wrong with initiating these discussions correctly.

About religion with your family or people you don't know?

lol, Tell me when you find that tactful way of demonizing religion to people.

Appealing to the Churches are not the answer. You, reaching out to Friends, Families, and Peers ... IS the answer.

Friends, family, and peers who would already vote for gay rights. What does that accomplish?

If they are still on terms with you that they will talk to you and let you talk to them about gay issues, then you either have their support, or they are indifferent enough that they won't vote agaisnt you IMO.

That's how I feel Whites did it. And there is no excuse why you can't.

I feel like...I have said nothing in the past.

We didn't go to the Churches, because we know the concept is absurd.

Hooow do you know this exactly?

It's called Individualism and the concept of Free-Thought .... and using your Brain.

Do you see how you sound like the people you hate? Cause I did enough spelling it out in the past, it takes too long.

Let me know when you plan on going.

I'm not the person asking where the leaders are. You are, so I told you where to find them.

We don't want to be considered in a "Community", as I have stated. We don't like to be grouped in "Communities" who all have the same goals and ideologies. What's the difference between that, and a flock of sheep?

I have already talked about communities. You are dead set agaisnt them, not white people. Tons of gays have already created communities.

Look at the Castro, or West Hollywood for an example. Those are visible gay communities in all their glory.

Even our Churches aren't all that Community-Oriented. Like I said, people see each other Sunday, and won't see each other for another week or 2-3 weeks ... or whenever the parishioner decides to attend mass, again.

Yes they are. It's a congregation of people who get together to worship God. They sit around with each other talking about it, they might be friends, or make friends from the group. The churches probably host little functions for people to come to during the week, and the church is probably open all week for people to come in and worship in a church and feel loved. They can probably set up times to talk to the parishioner there if they want.

Just by going to a church regularly with the same group of people, you make it a community.

We don't want the "Community Label". I long for the day to see more Blacks take a stand and say the same thing.

Why? A community isn't a bad thing.

Why don't you? You seem to want everyone else to do the work for you.

Cause I am not the one asking the questions.

Because we've gone back to Square One, again. There is no real "Gay Community". It is merely a label for Gays to identify with.

Go to the Castro, or West Hollywood. There is your gay community. Look at JUB, this is a community. You are apart of a community right now on JUB.

JUB is a pretty strong community, so is the Castro and West Hollywood. Any area designated the "gay area" in a major city is a community of gay people.

Where is the Black Gay Community based out of, out of curiosity? Again, who are it's leaders?

Google: Black Gay organizations. There ya go.

And just a side question, how many Gay Black celebrities are completely out? How many can you name?

IDK, Google it for yourself. But I don't see the point of this question. It doesn't represent the community as a whole.

But ok, I can't wait for your argument on it.

Like I said. Let me know when you plan on going, too. Maybe we can meet up and make a day out of it.

Again, I'm not the one asking the questions. You're the one looking for these places.

Again, let me know when you plan on doing so.

^

You are ignoring the fact that this is contrary to what one learns from the Church Leaders, who the Black Community has given unlimited power to, by choice. If the Church Leader tells its parishioners that they are "going to Hell", by supporting what "God detests" .... who will the people be more likely to believe? Their Community leaders who control the Churches, or the Fags walking down the street who look like they took a wrong turn somewhere?

Not all churches teach this. And people do not follow the reverands blindly. They aren't evangelists.

But hey, if you aren't willing to try, then again, don't expect a vote. Stay behind your excuses.

If Whites and Asians are able to break the bonds of religion on their own, and get under the 50% vote mark on their own (dependent upon geographic region, of course) ... I would like to know what the excuse is?

Asians and whites are still staunchly religious. But by talking to them, they understand that gay people of children of God as well.

Asian people, depending on their ancestor country, are still very religious. They just have a different type of religion. Confucianism, Buddhism etc etc.

Can you imagine if every Gay child did the same, and were able to convince their parents, siblings, and extended families to do so, also? Co-workers, peers?

I can guarantee you that no Gay Groups marched up to the Priests/Deacons to get them to go against "The Book". People woke up on their own. Again, what is your excuse?

You missed the point of what I said. But I already explained it in this thread, so go look for it.

Well, evidently Whites did something right, as less people are religious amongst Whites, than Blacks, who are considered the single highest Religious group by Race in the country. So something happened which resulted in the White Vote for Prop 8 getting below that 50% mark. Same with Asians.

If Whites and Asians could do that on their own, without Church leaders being intercepted, then again, what is your excuse?

White people are still religious, and still believe in God. No one is suddenly atheist, voting for gay people. If you asked them what their religion was, they would still name one.

Not to mention, they were talked to by gay groups asking for their vote and such. No one reached out to the black community. Well, the yes on prop 8 people did, and they got their votes.

Again, time to go out of your comfort zone.

Ah. But you missed the entire point of this whole thing. YOU need to be the ones who are talking to YOUR friends. YOUR peers. YOUR families. The people who you already have a bond with and have influence over.

*sigh*

And I dare say that I am willing to go out on a limb and bet that more people are out amongst Whites than amongst Blacks/Hispanics. Again, just look at the number of White Celebrities that have came out versus the number of Black celebrities that have come out. And like I theorized, it's because homosexuality is despised in the Black Community, overwhelmingly.

*sigh*

The bottom line is that you are not using your "Community" and your ties to it, to your fullest advantage. And it is because, in my opinion, because you are apathetic to the Cause.

I am apathetic to this topic.

I think I explained why it is a more effective method than trying to get Church Leaders to have their minds changed that what they are preaching is wrong. Again, this is HOW the Churches MAKE THEIR LIVING. Gays are a threat to their very existence, and that is why Churches overwhelmingly try to oppose Gays and Gay Rights. It is a fruitless effort.

Churches don't talk about gay people every day or even every week. Hell, I doubt they talk about gay people every month. They don't care about gay people that much.

As far as Gays believing in God and the Bible, I dare say that the overwhelming number of Gays are not religious. I, for example, am Agnostic ... although I lean very strongly toward there being a Creator. I just don't believe it is the same Creator as outlined in the Bible. I don't believe it is any Creator represented by any Organized Religion currently in existence or any no longer in existence.

You're probably right on this one.

Would YOU rather have those conversations with people YOU (as in you, personally Apollo) know ... or would you rather have that conversation with YOUR pastor? Who do you think you would have a greater chance of succeeding with?

The people I know already support me. Friends, family, etc


Well I am done with this topic. It isn't going anywhere, and your responses to these topics will mostly be the same answers I just answered in this post.

So yeah.

Goodbye.

 

[MystikWizard]

Before you go, Apollo .... I am interested in knowing if you are the type of person to practice what you preach. Every time I asked you when you plan on going to a Church leader, you dodged the question.

There were a lot of things that you dodged. Long posts are fine to ramble in. But it depends on if there is any substance in your arguments.

I asked you to list how many Gay Black celebrities that are publicly out, compared to the number of White Gay celebrities that are publicly out, and you couldn't even list a couple. And again, this points to the homophobia that is in the Black Community, and people like you being apathetic about it, for fear of the Community rejecting you. Black first, Gay second .... right?

You have no idea where any Gay Black Leaders are. Again, because being Gay isn't the same type of Community as being Black is a Community. Like I have been trying to tell you all along. You point to places like San Francisco that are Gay friendly ... and that's fine. However, do we have "San Francisco's all around the United States or only in certain parts of the country?

Does the Black Community only exist in certain parts of the country, or do the bonds of the Black Community spread across the entire country?

But back to my main question .... how many Churches have you gone to to talk with pastors? How many neighborhoods have you combed talking with fellow Gay people in the Black Community?

 

[Apollo]

Before you go, Apollo .... I am interested in knowing if you are the type of person to practice what you preach. Every time I asked you when you plan on going to a Church leader, you dodged the question.

Never, I plan to support the cause by talking to my elected officials. I don't have the free time or money to be going door to door to people and talk to them.

I asked you to list how many Gay Black celebrities that are publicly out, compared to the number of White Gay celebrities that are publicly out, and you couldn't even list a couple. And again, this points to the homophobia that is in the Black Community, and people like you being apathetic about it, for fear of the Community rejecting you. Black first, Gay second .... right?

I want to call you a dumbass soooooo bad, but that is in bad taste.

So I will simply say AGAIN! That the amount of out black celebrities doesn't reflect on the black community at all. A black celebrity has a fanbase that doesn't look at race. You seem stuck in some world where black celebrities seem to only have black fans, and white celebs only have white fans.

I don't see how you can judge an entire community based off of a group of people less than 1% of a population.

You have no idea where any Gay Black Leaders are. Again, because being Gay isn't the same type of Community as being Black is a Community. Like I have been trying to tell you all along. You point to places like San Francisco that are Gay friendly ... and that's fine. However, do we have "San Francisco's all around the United States or only in certain parts of the country?

Black people have a visible community where the majority of back people live and congregate to, so do gay people. What is the difference?

San Francisco has a black area as well as gay area. They have china town, and probably a place where it is predominantly hispanic. (little mexico?)

I live in Texas, and in Houston, we have the Montrose area for gay people, a Third Ward for black people etc. etc.

Look at NYC. Or the other major cities in Texas, they have gay areas. And I was talking about the Castro, not San Francisco.

Ok I have answered all your last questions. Don't ask anymore. Anything you ask, you have already asked, so just look back through this thread for your answers.

 

[MystikWizard]

OK. Let me know exactly WHEN you plan on talking to your elected officials.

Okay. Bye now!!

 

[Apollo]

OK. Let me know exactly WHEN you plan on talking to your elected officials.

Okay. Bye now!!

Um, lets see. I talked to them yesterday via a email, when I finished watching this episode of In Your Boots where they were talking about Silent Partners.

Really, anytime metta posts some links for this and that.

Tell me when you start reaching out to the black community.

 

[MystikWizard]

Um, lets see. I talked to them yesterday via a email, when I finished watching this episode of In Your Boots where they were talking about Silent Partners.

Really, anytime metta posts some links for this and that.

Tell me when you start reaching out to the black community.

I don't plan on it. I never reached out to the "White Community" on this matter either, so don't feel bad. Who I did reach out to were family members, friends, and peers and have given them a whole new perspective on the matter.

And I can assure you that I never had the "Gay Community" welcome me or "reach out to me", either ... which is something I routinely hear some Black posters on here pouting about. That is because there is no close-knit Gay Community that reaches across the entire country, like people like you may think. I'm personally not a fan of communities, myself so that is just as well.

This is a contest of ideologies. And the way you correct those ideologies is by using your "Community" and influence over other people to your advantage. And thus far, that has not transpired amongst Blacks at the same degree it has with Whites.

So Liberal Minded Blacks and actual Gay Blacks perhaps need to do more. May I suggest actually Coming out of the closet, for starters, as that would probably prove to be a good first step.

Also, can you post that email exchange on here, Apollo? I'm just curious to see the type of interaction you had with your Congressmen and how he responded.

 

[Apollo]

How do you know they aren't out of the closet? You seem to be making assumptions about people you don't know. You're assuming gay blacks aren't out of the closet. How do you know they aren't? Because you think all blacks are homophobic and unaccepting, and you choose to take some buzz words and stretch them to describe the majority of people and use them to make your own assumptions?

Black gay people weren't the problem with prop 8, or any other gay issues.

Now,

 

[MystikWizard]

How do you know they aren't out of the closet? You seem to be making assumptions about people you don't know. You're assuming gay blacks aren't out of the closet. How do you know they aren't? Because you think all blacks are homophobic and unaccepting, and you choose to take some buzz words and stretch them to describe the majority of people and use them to make your own assumptions?

Black gay people weren't the problem with prop 8, or any other gay issues.

Now,

Again, would you be kind enough to post that email exchange from "yesterday" that you had with your Congressmen, Apollo? I'm sure a lot of us out there would like to see how the example is set for the rest of us to follow. It is also good to see someone practice exactly what they preach, as well and definitely adds credibility to that person's character and integrity.

Since you are clearly on JUB at the moment, and responding to this thread, it should only take about 2 minutes for you to post it.

 

[bankside]

The answer is "I don't know why not every black person supports gays. But the black people who matter do."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coretta_Scott_King#LGBT_equality
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayard_Rustin

Yes, the people that matter agree that equality is one united struggle.

And that's my final answer, Regis.