On Topic Discussion 2 yo boy killed by alligator at Disney

[Benvolio]

Why would you haul sand when that could potentially make it easier for the gators?

That is my point. The real reason for not making it safe to swim was the problem of the alligators. It makes the failure to warn of the alligators seem to be a calculated decision based on the fear of losing customers.

 

[luckynumbah7]

That is my point. The real reason for not making it safe to swim was the problem of the alligators. It makes the failure to warn of the alligators seem to be a calculated decision based on the fear of losing customers.

Gators aren't the only thing in Florida waters that are nasty and common. On the very rare times you start to sound like there might be a point unearthed I have to remind myself it generally comes with several deliberate omissions.

 

[mikey3000]

...and it doesn't mean that they weren't.

In my world...allowing a two year old child to be unattended by any body of water is inexcusable...period.

The child wasn't unattended. The child, along with dozens of other people, just finished watching a movie on the beach that was put on by the hotel. The parents were by his side when the gator snatched him from the edge of the water, so close in act that the Dad tried to wrestle his son from the gator. Please stick to the facts.

Does this apply to shark attacks in the ocean for hotels which prominently advertise their beachfront status?

It doesn't, anywhere. I'm not aware of any case where it did.

It really comes down to one simple fact. The natural world is full of animals, and some of these are dangerous. The distinction between when it is or isn't an individual's decision to accept the risk, however remote, of a wild animal attack in any landscape known for wild animals, is, so far as I can tell, being applied completely arbitrarily. It is always a risk you accept, whether a given individual wants to own this responsibility or not, when you enter a natural landscape, and certainly if you do so against warning signs that particular areas are not safe or intended for recreational use.

It is this baseline expectation, that areas of the natural world should have been sterilized for your safety regardless of whether you exercised poor judgment or ignored signs and chose to enter, that results in both the outrage and the retaliatory killing of wildlife that you see in virtually all of these cases. There is absolutely no reason for anyone to go around with this expectation, least of all when they are guarding the lives of children who cannot make safe decisions.

Simple facts for simpletons, eh? OK. How about this... when the owner of the ocean opens up a hotel (in the ocean,) and advertises for tourists from all over world, yes the ocean owner would be obliged to warn of sharks. just like ski resorts warn of avalanches, camp grounds warn of forest fires, etc. [Text: Removed]

 

[eastofeden]

The child wasn't unattended. The child, along with dozens of other people, just finished watching a movie on the beach that was put on by the hotel. The parents were by his side when the gator snatched him from the edge of the water, so close in act that the Dad tried to wrestle his son from the gator. Please stick to the facts.

I know he jumped in the water...and I know they watched a movie...but I have seen or heard nothing yet about where he was specifically when his son was snatched.

Everyone who asks in any article I have read so far gets the same shit...like we aren't supposed to ask..but no actual specific answer....

...and I still wouldn't have allowed a two year old to splash around or wade in the water

not in the dark..not in Florida..not in Hawaii..not in California..not in my backyard...but especially not in Florida because I don't need a sign to tell me there are alligators everywhere....

 

[mikey3000]

It still amazes me how some people demand no judgement from society yet are so liberal with judging others themselves. Try being a parent first before you judge them. Remember, "Judge not lest ye be judged," eh?

 

[luckynumbah7]

It still amazes me how some people demand no judgement from society yet are so liberal with judging others themselves. Try being a parent first before you judge them. Remember, "Judge not lest ye be judged," eh?

An action or a series of failed actions aren't the same as an intrinsic quality.

Also, if people acknowledged their own possible/probable culpability (I mean, everything I've ever seen says ignorance isn't an excuse) then people (at the same time) would be brainstorming ways to continue not getting bit or eaten instead of trying to wiggle out've a collective "Fuck, our bad, we need to work on this from several angles".

It takes a village to raise a kid because sometimes it seems like half the adults on the planet (parents or no) are uninformed through their own lack of effort. There's nothing special about that lack of effort, just who it impacts.

 

[Alistair]

It still amazes me how some people demand no judgement from society yet are so liberal with judging others themselves. Try being a parent first before you judge them. Remember, "Judge not lest ye be judged," eh?

Don't give me that bullshit. Every one of us have had brothers, sisters, cousins, nieces or nephews. We all know what it takes to keep an eye on a 2 year old for five minutes. Parents don't have any more insight into keeping a child safe any more than anyone else does. History has proven that.

 

[TickTockMan]

BREAKING NEWS: Disney World Begins Construction on Shoreline Fence After Alligator Attack


More changes at Disney World in response to the alligator attack that claimed the life of a 2-year-old Tuesday night at the Grand Floridian Resort. Resort beaches and Marinas have been closed since Wednesday morning. In addition to changes coming to signage, the next wave of safety measures has begun.

Work crews have begun erecting a fence at the shoreline of Seven Seas Lagoon. Work is currently being done at the Grand Floridian and the Wedding Pavilion. It is safe to assume fences will be put up at the Polynesian as well. Disney work crews are using wooden posts indicating this is likely a temporary structure. There is no information on how long the fence will remain up or if a permanent fence will be erected at a later time.

http://www.disneyfanatic.com/breaki...on-on-shoreline-fence-after-alligator-attack/



Sad they did not do this before a child died.

 

[peeonme]

Don't give me that bullshit. Every one of us have had brothers, sisters, cousins, nieces or nephews. We all know what it takes to keep an eye on a 2 year old for five minutes. Parents don't have any more insight into keeping a child safe any more than anyone else does. History has proven that.

Try 24/7 for 18 years, then they still rely on you if for no other reason than as a sounding board.
There are no perfect parents, just perfect spectators.

 

[TickTockMan]

I am on my phone so I can't post it, but a video has shown up of an employee at Splash Mountain pushing an alligator away from guests on the ride. That looks really bad if there will be a lawsuit.

 

[kallipolis]

Try 24/7 for 18 years, then they still rely on you if for no other reason than as a sounding board.
There are no perfect parents, just perfect spectators.

Noteworthy....

 

[MakeDigitalLove]

I am on my phone so I can't post it, but a video has shown up of an employee at Splash Mountain pushing an alligator away from guests on the ride. That looks really bad if there will be a lawsuit.

Yes, it is old, though. People are freaking out over Alligators in Florida now, but the fact of the matter is that Alligator attacks aren't very common.

 

[luckynumbah7]

http://www.disneyfanatic.com/breaki...on-on-shoreline-fence-after-alligator-attack/



Sad they did not do this before a child died.

Dunno that that'll be very helpful. Gators climb fences. Tho I suppose as a deterrent it's a start. Though now they'll have to explain that a fence isn't a perfect barrier.

 

[eastofeden]

Maybe Disney World should move to a place where there are no alligators!

Seriously....unless you want to kill every alligator in Florida...there will always be at least a slight chance that one may attack you.....though it is rare....

I certainly wouldn't want to suggest that any person has any fault at all because that just isn't possible. I have been schooled.

 

[xbuzzerx]

Yes, it is old, though. People are freaking out over Alligators in Florida now, but the fact of the matter is that Alligator attacks aren't very common.

Yup. The first on a Disney property in Florida in about 50 years of operation... despite the I'm sure MANY reports people could dig up of employees, visitors or onlookers having seen alligators near, on, around Disney properties that are near the water, just as you can anywhere in Florida. Screening and removal of "pest alligators" 4 feet or larger is a regular service provided by programs in the state of Florida for private and public bodies of water. But total or guaranteed absence of them anywhere, even a fenced backyard, is not a realistic goal in the state. State officials and wildlife experts all indicate as much.

Ultimately you're always responsible when going into a new place or an area exposed to wildlife and nature to exercise discretion and to assume incidents like these can occur. We all do this without batting an eye every single time we step in an ocean, or river. Nature cannot (and SHOULD NOT) be sterilized of animal life for the very most ignorant and careless tourist theoretically possible and it isn't undue negligence for a business sitting on a beach or river or lake or forest or savannah to have failed to eradicate every potential animal from the surrounding area and water. It would in fact be not just illegal but ecologically disastrous to do so, yet that is where the logic carried in the "tourists are entitled to guaranteed safe exposure to open environments, or else someone should be liable" argument takes us.

As to the "oh so are you a perfect parent" argument... no one needs to be in this discussion, it's just an emotional irrationality to bring it up. I'd never enter any water that told me not to specifically on a sign. I wouldn't do it at 9:30pm at night, in the dark, or with a child in my care. I wouldn't let my dog in. That's not perfection, that's basic discretion. If you lack that you're going to get yourself killed or injured by something eventually. Nobody is saying the parents were bad because the child didn't pass a genius test or play violin concertos at 2. If the bar for "perfection" is that they should have heeded a sign saying that something was dangerous, then the bar is too low.

 

[xbuzzerx]

Dunno that that'll be very helpful. Gators climb fences. Tho I suppose as a deterrent it's a start. Though now they'll have to explain that a fence isn't a perfect barrier.

that's the thing. The things people are coming up with and saying "well see here, if Disney had just done this thing I just came up with just now, it would have been fine", are just things people are coming up with from a chair at a keyboard. Gators do get over fences and into fenced backyard swimming pools. Wildlife experts working for the state of Florida all agree, they eventually get into just about any body of water in the state if they've any mind to. "Perfect prevention of any possibility that a gator is present in water you don't have full visibility on" simply isn't possible.

 

[MakeDigitalLove]

I didn't see any Alligators the last time I was in Florida, but there was a lot of talk about them. We are looking for a place to live down there. but my Boyfriend was telling me he saw them quite often on a trip with his family before, I forget exactly where but a popular tourist spot. Also I just saw pictures of the "fence" they put up and that they were talking about "permanent solutions" but all I could think is that there is none. People are going to do what they want no matter what and anything you do is not good enough.

Was reading plenty of comments from local Florida people in these articles that there are knuckleheads that fucking feed the Alligators even though it is illegal in Florida (duh, right?). I just can't understand what kind of stupidity compels one to feed a predator at all.

Related to this story, but with a better ending and has nothing to do with negligence but shows that this shit can just happen. There was a Mountain Lion attack in Colorado of a 5 year old child, the Mother ran out and pried the childs head out the the Lions mouth, which is just amazing. Mother of the fucking decade. Of course though, and I "get it" to a certain extent I guess, but I don't like it is that they went out and killed 2 Mountain Lions near the area. I just hate it that these things always "end" this way.

 

[kev]

This is ironic...most people here at JUB are Leftists, and, as such, are big supporters of trial lawyers. And, believe me, the trial lawyers are going after Disney, because there is a lot of money there, and the lawyers get a third of it. It is so...capitalistic...so Right Wing.

To those of you who say that you have brothers, nephews, etc., and therefore can pass harsh judgement on the parents (who, by the way, are from Nebraska, where there are not tons of alligators, and, believe me, there are no warning discussions or informational brochures about alligators on the flight from Omaha to Orlando, nor in the rental car or shuttle, nor in the hotel room, nor apparently on the beach itself), I am here to tell you: it is not the same. Until you are a parent, you just won't understand.

But, as I have said before, now that gay marriage is legal in all 50 states, become a parent and see how easy or hard it is to have two kids at Disney, where there is daylight after 9:00 pm (7:00 pm Nebraska time) in June, before you proclaim the parents as the villains.

This is just a horrible tragedy, and Disney is going to pay for it.

 

[MakeDigitalLove]

I just looked up sunset and sunrise to see if that statement is actually correct. Tonight the sunset is at 8:26 in Orlando. And day to day there is only a slight change in time when it comes to sunrise/sunset.

So of course it would be dark at 9:30. But I mean, when you have the Internet at your finger tips why do any sort of research and just make blanket statements instead?

 

[LuiLui]

http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/15/us/alligator-attacks-child-disney-florida/

They still haven't found him. They've killed 4 alligators so far.

Should Disney or the parents be held responsible?

Alister I honestly think its the parents to be held responsible because if the parents would be taking care of their children like they are supposed to things like this one would not happen. Its like the Gorilla who got killed when the child fell from into the gorillas habitat. I watched the video of the gorilla and I honestly saw the gorilla trying to comfort the crying baby but she got shot and of that the parents are to blame why not car