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A Question for you Pro-Heathcare Reformers

Well, Doctor, what have we got - a Republic or a Monarchy?

A Republic, if you can keep it.” - Ben Franklin

As Americans, regardless of race, class, or party affiliation, we've already lost that one.

We're now ruled by capitalists, and the the totalitarian regime that they've created through the open markets that they've established throughout our "Republic."

And now that we bitterly feud with one another over who has the most to gain, or which minority/majority is most to blame, or who's conspiracy theory holds the most water, I'm afraid that the American Republic is DOA in the 21st Century.

After more than 187 posts in this thread, with observations from both outside of the U.S. to heartfelt personal illustrations from where many of us actually are in this "debate," the Republic is now officially lost.

We couldn't keep it, and are now so divided that there's not much hope in ever getting it back.
 
Nice discussion on Constitutional Convention. I support one.

Can you honestly imagine trying to have one of those today? :confused:

I find it interesting how much we revere our founding fathers while decrying secret government.

The Constitutional Convention of 1787 was held in secret. Actually, nobody knew that they went in there to craft an entirely new constitution, most people thought they were going to amend the Articles of Confederation until they came out and announced what they did.

I'd argue that those who signed the Declaration of Independence from the rule of King Charles the third III eleven years earlier had some idea.

Let's try to avoid "romanticizing" or over dramatizing American History shall we.

I'm pretty certain when the Federalist Papers, that were published right after that "Convention" (1787-1788 ) that things could not have been anymore transparent.

Oh and by the way, the proceedings of the Continental Congress were held in secret too, and I for one do not know how they managed during the stifling hot summers in Philadelphia without open windows.

Where was it ever recorded that the windows were closed? ;)

Besides from historical readings of the time everyone in Philadelphia that summer knew exactly what everyone was gathered there for.

Hence the quote that RedRubberBall cited in post #186 of this thread:


^ Linked for attribution, and context. ..|

There wasn't much reason for secrecy.

The American Revolution was pretty much over, and now it was time to determine the relationship that the former "colonies" would then have with each other in 1787-1788.

And even then it wasn't a forgone conclusion, and ultimately took a "Civil War" to sort "State's Rights" out from "Federalist" control.

Fast forward 223 years, and suddenly we have a minority screaming, a similar minority that's done nothing to advance the cause of "All Men are created equal...." during those 223 years, now screaming foul. ](*,)

WTFE! ..|

But that's my own personal observation. ;)
 
Where was it ever recorded that the windows were closed? ;)

Actually it was, in some journals. That's why in the musical 1776 you hear John Adams and others screaming for someone to open a window.

Fast forward 223 years, and suddenly we have a minority screaming, a similar minority that's done nothing to advance the cause of "All Men are created equal...." during those 223 years, now screaming foul. ](*,)

You lost me there.....
 
Kuli,

I told you it wasn't just me that posted stuff on here n one could understand.

At least I understand my posts...do you think he understands his?
 
NickCole, I am happy to see that you haven't abandoned Democratic principles. I was beginning to worry.

Concerning your points, however: all the gains you mentioned that Bill Clinton effected were laudable, of course, but the fact that he signed that repeal of the Glass-Steagel Act is just too big to let go. It just is.

In terms of profundity, I equate the repeal of that act with the shooting of the Archduke Ferdinand in the 1910s. Please listen to me, and I think you'll agree.

Both incidents set in motion a chain events that rocked the world to its very core. In the case of the repeal, it nearly brought the entire financial world to its very knees. We haven't been to war, no, but we teetered on the verge of a complete collapse of the financial system as we know it. I shudder when I contemplate how close we came to oblivion.


This last paragraph shows you understand nothing about what happened. It's an hysterical distillation of ObamaCo propaganda talking points, nothing more. And the worst part is you don't even know it; you think you're informed and came up with that but it's straight out of what ObamaCo wants people to believe.

I do not understand why so many people willingly believe what a politician, or anybody else, says rather than doing their own research. Boggles my mind.

I worked at Goldman Sachs all through the 1990s. I voted for Clinton, which placed me in a very small minority among my collegues, and I opposed Gramm-Leach-Bliley (the legislation that repealed Glass-Steagall), which placed me in an even smaller minority. I was very critical of Clinton for signing it, and I know what the climate in financial services was like before and after, and how few people --Republican and Democratic in and out of the industry-- thought it was a bad thing.

Should Glass-Steagall have been repealed? I thought and still think absolutely not. But I understand what it was and what it wasn't, and it did not "set in motion a chain events that rocked the world to its very core." (It's fascinating what drama queens the NoDramaObama crowd actually is.) What Gramm-Leach-Bliley did was officially allow commercial banking to get into investment banking, which in reality had already happened. Interestingly, banks that remained independent despite Gramm-Leach-Bliley, like Lehman and Bear Stearns, were the ones that collapsed during the economic crisis. And the way it all unfolded supports the belief that in fact Gramm-Leach-Bliley softened the impact of the crisis. The crisis didn't happen because investment and commercial banks were merged, although I believe that was bad and should end, the crisis was a result of a real estate bubble and mortgage/credit corruption.

The real cause of the economic crisis is not one piece of legislation but of layered irresponsibility, with the Federal Reserve, Alan Greenspan and Ben Bernanke at the top of the heap. Their role in this is so egregious, both those men should be in prison. Then there's Clinton who pushed to relax middle-class requirements for credit cards and mortgages (when I criticized that I was called elitist and old-fashioned). And Wall Street firms for bundling Mortgage Backed Securities laced with garbage and using those toxic assets as collateral. Then there's mortgage brokers, real estate agents, home buyers who participated in driving up the price of real estate too far too fast and over mortgaging it with bad loans. And don't get me started on Congress, Barney Frank and Chris Dodd right at the front of the line along with Republicans. I spoke out about all of this as it was happening and got shot down by most Republicans and Democrats who called me henny penny and dismissed my concerns out of hand -- but I was right (now they say "nobody knew" but the truth is a few of us did know and were ignored). And I'm right today that neither Obama nor Congress, neither Democrats nor Republicans, are doing what must be done to restructure; and without it we're going headlong into another economic crisis that'll leave us in even worse shape.

ObamaCo wants to blame Clinton and Gramm-Leach-Bliley, though they have not moved to reinstate Glass-Steagall, nor have they passed legislation to replace it. It's now been a year and a half, and if they really believe the repeal of Glass-Steagall sent the world to the edge of oblivion, you ought to wonder why they haven't done something about that.


The signing of that repeal—a most colossally foolish act—was more than bad enough to balance out the few good things Clinton accomplished during his tenure.

Believing that signing Gramm-Leach-Bliley "was more than bad enough to balance out the few good things Clinton accomplished during his tenure" is just ignorant. People who prospered as a result of Clinton's great economic moves, and who didn't lie and cheat and make stupid choices in the 2000s just because they could or because "everybody else is doing it," are still today much better off than before Clinton, in careers and owning homes and in many cases other assets they would almost certainly never have been able to otherwise.

Here we are in 2010, a year and a half after the economic crisis hit, and despite what we've known for that year and a half, the Obama Administration has not enacted legislation similiar to Glass-Steagall or any substantive financial regulations. I happen to agree that Clinton was foolish to sign Gramm-Leach-Bliley (though I know darn well you'd have gone along with the crowd back then and supported it as well), but he did it when the economy was humming and it looked on the surface like a good thing to do. So what's Obama's excuse, supposedly believing Gramm-Leach-Bliley caused the crisis and doing nothing to remedy that while being President for a year and a half and counting?

Clinton made his share of mistakes and IMO signing Gramm-Leach-Bliley was one of them, though he stands by it. But it was not the reason for the economic crisis. And through a Republican administration and a new Democratic administration the law stands today just as it did a year ago, two years ago, ten years ago.
 
Are you kidding? For a while I was so poor that I ate macaroni & cheese for each and every meal. A box of it was 25cents each and it filled me up for one meal.

As for the rest? I respect you enough to say that we'll have to agree to disagree.

These were always cheaper:

potatoes112.jpg



Ever try them raw, with peanut butter from the food bank?
 
Preachers and politicians are cut from the same [STRIKE]filthy rag[/STRIKE] cloth.

That pointed was made far more eloquently a millennium and a half ago by a man they named "Golden Mouth" because of his speaking abilities. But he also noted that the maxim is not, happily, universally true: there are here and there preachers who are good, and not merely good preachers, and politicians of the same sort.
 
Why should I, a hard-working citizen who pays his taxes and is able to hold his own job, have to pay for someone else's care?
I don't believe you are "hard-working."


Now my taxes are gonna go up…
Your taxes, in addition to whatever gets you by in life, are not my problem.


And by the way, get ready to have hospitals overcrowded and you guys having to wait long lines with this "universal healthcare" idea.
I'm dismissing your claim of knowing what current hospitals, in the United States, are like.


If you want to help out crackwhore jobless bum that's your business, but I shouldn't be obligated to pay for someone's life insurance.
Now that you're mentioning it: I'd prefer to help them all…before considering taking care of you.
 
the fact that [President Clinton] signed that repeal of the Glass-Steagel Act is just too big to let go. It just is.

Though Clinton added the last nail to its proverbial coffin, efforts to negate Glass-Steagall began (and then continued through) about a half-dozen presidential administrations before his. The history is worth a review.



… an hysterical distillation of ObamaCo propaganda talking points, nothing more.

ObamaCo wants to blame Clinton and Gramm-Leach-Bliley, …
I presume “ObamaCo” is not synonymous with Barack Obama. It seems that Mr. Obama derided the lobbyists and a lack of appropriate regulation. Maybe you can provide a link where he blamed President Clinton?

… we have deregulated the financial sector and we face another crisis. A regulatory structure set up for banks in the 1930s needed to change, because the nature of business had changed. But by the time the Glass-Steagall Act was repealed in 1999, the $300 million lobbying effort that drove deregulation was more about facilitating mergers than creating an efficient regulatory framework. And since then we've overseen 21st century innovation, including the aggressive introduction of new and complex financial instruments like hedge funds and non-bank financial companies, with outdated 20th century regulatory tools. – Barack Obama, March 2008
 
^ Why are you attempting to bait other members in that post and the post before it?

Kulindahr mentioned, in another thread, that for a question being asked directly to another individual … it may be handled in a PM.

So if I'm not being clear, I apologize: What I'm saying to you, specifically, is this: If you want me to answer your above question … send it to me in the form of a private message. I'll answer you directly from there.
 
Actually, Kulindahr, at that particular time, in the desert state of Nevada, the spuds were more expensive.

Like I said, I could buy generic brand Mac & Cheese for 25cents a box—even less when they were on sale, which was once or twice a year.

<chuckle>

You know something funny? I developed the Stockholm Syndrome with the Mac & Cheese. To this day, I love it dearly enough to call it "comfort food".

I remember getting Kraft Mac & Cheese at 7/$1, and one spud was still cheaper than one box -- and Oregon isn't all THAT much closer to Idaho than Nevada is!

I merely turned out with a difficulty handling the thought of actually cooking a potato.

And since I managed to get a deer a year hunting, I found that venison in Mac & Cheese is pretty good.
 
I don't believe you are "hard-working."



Your taxes, in addition to whatever gets you by in life, are not my problem.



I'm dismissing your claim of knowing what current hospitals, in the United States, are like.



Now that you're mentioning it: I'd prefer to help them all…before considering taking care of you.

You sound like a Sarah Palin Republican: selfish, uncaring....
 
I thought it might behoove the JUB community to know more about the events of September 18, 2008, the day we really did veer on the edge of financial collapse:

http://dailyreckoning.com/september-18-2008-edge-of-collapse/

Good read -- scary, too; I hadn't realized the size of the money-market run.

The article there on China's bubble is scary, too -- if they pop before we're solid again, we're in it deep -- and if their economy collapses, there aren't any safety nets... and historically, in countries where that happens, there's often this thing called "violence".
 
Good read -- scary, too; I hadn't realized the size of the money-market run.

The article there on China's bubble is scary, too -- if they pop before we're solid again, we're in it deep -- and if their economy collapses, there aren't any safety nets... and historically, in countries where that happens, there's often this thing called "violence".

But before that there's this other thing called a "break down of civil society."

We're already being uncivil to each other.

We've had 8+ years of "us" -vs- "them."

  • Sara Palin's "Real America."
  • John Edwards "Two Americas."
  • Liberal Socialists
  • Tea Partiers
  • A rise in anti-government "extremists."
  • Neo-Nazi-Bible-Thumping-Fascists.
  • Glenn Beck. :lol:
Meanwhile back at the Farm, there appears to be a large segment of the population that is no longer trustful of their Federal Government, they don't care to much for their State or Local Governments either.

Surely you've noticed a rise in Gun and Ammo sales throughout your neck of the woods haven't you?

I'm glad that I no longer live in the city.

I can't say that I'm arming myself to the teeth, but just like when sharks seem to know when to attack off the coast of New Jersey, I seem to know when to get out of densely populated areas, and to begin relearning how to "live off the land."

I can't predict or tell you what's coming down the pike, but even here in Rural Texas I can feel it, and it's not a comfortable feeling.

[-X
 
But before that there's this other thing called a "break down of civil society."

We're already being uncivil to each other.

We've had 8+ years of "us" -vs- "them."

  • Sara Palin's "Real America."
  • John Edwards "Two Americas."
  • Liberal Socialists
  • Tea Partiers
  • A rise in anti-government "extremists."
  • Neo-Nazi-Bible-Thumping-Fascists.
  • Glenn Beck. :lol:
Meanwhile back at the Farm, there appears to be a large segment of the population that is no longer trustful of their Federal Government, they don't care to much for their State or Local Governments either.

Surely you've noticed a rise in Gun and Ammo sales throughout your neck of the woods haven't you?

I'm glad that I no longer live in the city.

I can't say that I'm arming myself to the teeth, but just like when sharks seem to know when to attack off the coast of New Jersey, I seem to know when to get out of densely populated areas, and to begin relearning how to "live off the land."

I can't predict or tell you what's coming down the pike, but even here in Rural Texas I can feel it, and it's not a comfortable feeling.

[-X

If you need another hand to defend that ranch, just holler. I'm still a pretty good shot at 200 yd with the old 303. Not too bad with the .300 Winchester, either.
 
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