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Being Christian and gay at the same time?

Hi guys. I’m not a very religious person, but I’ve always believed in God and Jesus. Lately, I’m having problems to reconcile my beliefs and my sexual orientation.

Since I was a little kid, I always imagined being with a beautiful woman and forming a family with children. I imagined being a father and educating my children with joy (I still do it when I see a child). But when I started to realize I was gay, I repudiated it because I didn’t want to be so. I knew it would bring complications in the future and I wanted to change.

So I went like that for a few years in my teens. I even researched about psychological theories of why people are gay and about supposed transformation therapies to stop being homosexual. However, I noticed that most people who had participated of these therapies had developed a great sense of frustration in their lives and that the range of suicides of these patients was very high. Therefore, over time I came to accept the fact that I was born like this and it was not my fault. I was just created this way. And without actually accepting 100% at least at my 20’s I was living with the supposed certainty that being was gay was not wrong.

However, during this last two years many "coincidences" and important situations in my life have occurred that have made my faith in God to grow quite. Especially in the last three months, I have lived some serious events that could directly relate to my sexual orientation and could be interpreted as God is calling my attention.

I know many of you are atheists or those who believe in God are assured that if you're gay is because He made you like this. But I cannot just ignore the fact of the evil concept that The Bible has about gay people, and I need to know how to reconcile my beliefs with what I am.

I hope you can give some advice, especially from the Christian point of view (if there are some around here) and I have lot of uncertainty.

Well first of all the problem with you is that you are seeking the Abrahamic religions and their view of god. Yahweh Sabeoth was a very warlike, sexist and homophobic deity. He is one you best steer clear of. There are many deities that do accept LGBT people and if you are feeling that a benevolent God is trying to talk to you then it is most likely one of them. Most Pagan deities in fact have no problem with homosexuality.
 
Well first of all the problem with you is that you are seeking the Abrahamic religions and their view of god. Yahweh Sabeoth was a very warlike, sexist and homophobic deity. He is one you best steer clear of. There are many deities that do accept LGBT people and if you are feeling that a benevolent God is trying to talk to you then it is most likely one of them. Most Pagan deities in fact have no problem with homosexuality.

This person does not know of what she's talking about.
 
The OT is indeed very warlike, sexist, and homophobic.

The rest of that is something you of all people shouldn't be dismissing, your god is no more valid than hers, one could easily say you don't know what you're talking about. After all, your claims to your personal deity have no more validity than anyone else's.
 
The OT is indeed very warlike, sexist, and homophobic.

The rest of that is something you of all people shouldn't be dismissing, your god is no more valid than hers, one could easily say you don't know what you're talking about. After all, your claims to your personal deity have no more validity than anyone else's.

There are alternative views (which I'm sure you'll dismiss) but here it goes.

First of all the word 'abomination' is given more weight today then I think was intended. In fact, many of the things forbidden by the Bible in OT days were because God wanted the Jews uber vigilant and healthy (for example, pork being considered unclean until the NT). When it came to morals, there were no less distinction, but the reasoning was two-fold. To show that there is actually a right and wrong way to go about things, and that it's impossible to be right all the time.

I've talked to a nurse (who was gay and not homophobic in the least) who admits anal sex can easily cause infection if not done right, as can many other sexual acts if not careful. The anus is not really accustomed to have things shoved up it, and there are other ways to stimulate the prostate, but I digress. He recommended always using a condom and water based lube (even in a monogamous relationship). Homosexuality as an act most likely was banned for health reasons, and we can now prevent those infections to a large degree. Lust is also not a great character trait, no matter what you're orientation is, but that is also somewhat of a rabbit trail.

As far as the war in the OT, while war is horrible, it's pretty much impossible to avoid at times. Besides the fact if we never went to war with anyone, we'd likely get run over by any tyrant who fancied taking control, many hypothesize that many of the races in the Bible (Hittites, Jebusites etc) were half human half nephilim (such as the Sons of Anak) who you might as well equate with Boko Haram of today. Also if you are going to believe in a God who is all knowing, who's to say war was not intended to prevent something even worse from happening, that none of us could know about because it was prevented?

I realize it's much simpler to look at things as black and white, but that's just not how life works. War is not always bad, death is not always bad, and rules aren't always bad.
 
There are alternative views (which I'm sure you'll dismiss) but here it goes.

First of all the word 'abomination' is given more weight today then I think was intended. In fact, many of the things forbidden by the Bible in OT days were because God wanted the Jews uber vigilant and healthy (for example, pork being considered unclean until the NT). When it came to morals, there were no less distinction, but the reasoning was two-fold. To show that there is actually a right and wrong way to go about things, and that it's impossible to be right all the time.

I've talked to a nurse (who was gay and not homophobic in the least) who admits anal sex can easily cause infection if not done right, as can many other sexual acts if not careful. The anus is not really accustomed to have things shoved up it, and there are other ways to stimulate the prostate, but I digress. He recommended always using a condom and water based lube (even in a monogamous relationship). Homosexuality as an act most likely was banned for health reasons, and we can now prevent those infections to a large degree. Lust is also not a great character trait, no matter what you're orientation is, but that is also somewhat of a rabbit trail.

As far as the war in the OT, while war is horrible, it's pretty much impossible to avoid at times. Besides the fact if we never went to war with anyone, we'd likely get run over by any tyrant who fancied taking control, many hypothesize that many of the races in the Bible (Hittites, Jebusites etc) were half human half nephilim (such as the Sons of Anak) who you might as well equate with Boko Haram of today. Also if you are going to believe in a God who is all knowing, who's to say war was not intended to prevent something even worse from happening, that none of us could know about because it was prevented?

I realize it's much simpler to look at things as black and white, but that's just not how life works. War is not always bad, death is not always bad, and rules aren't always bad.

Black and white? Hmmmm, I had thought that everyone was aware of my opinion on this, guess not, so here it is.

It matters not one dirty flying fuck what the people who wrote the bible "meant." Nope not one little itty bitty bit. The reason you are in here arguing this "misinterpretation" argument is because the legions of Christianity out there could give a fuck about that argument and the only people who'll entertain it are already convinced without having to have esoteric conversations about things two thousand years inscrutable, that are impossible to "prove" beyond one's personal agenda.

No one knows about sense and context of classical languages, let alone metaphors or shadings of meanings because no one lived two thousand years ago. What does that mean? That means that no one can know what they "meant," the very best "scholarship" is still guessing, and it doesn't matter anyway, since no one lives two thousand years ago.

Which is where reality kicks in. You will not convince one single Christian hater with that crap, because they interpret the bible NOW, not two thousand years ago, and in their modern interpretation they mean abomination with all the inherent modern understanding of the word we all share. This is not black and white, this is life. If you think that they are just misinformed as to what the bible really means, then knock yourself out, go talk to them about it.

All of this argument over what the bible "really means," is just something we salve ourselves with when we don't want to look at the nasty things our religion has done to us. In the name of Christ, after all it's less hurtful to think that God doesn't really hate you and never did, isn't it.

Luckily, secularism has largely pulled the fangs of institutional Christian repression, (if not homophobia) and Luther shattered the monopoly, so us modern queers can actually find denominations that aren't all Baptist.

Frankly, I suspect the ancient Hebrews were just as homophobic as advertised. Stick to the Romans, murkier ground there.

- - - Updated - - -

Evidence?

All hippies are bisexual, I thought the 60's proved that?
 
You have a point, at the same time not everything in the Bible is uninterpretable. Sometimes it's just flat out obvious. Also, you totally overlooked my points about health, which was the main point of my post anyway.

One a somewhat related note, there are dysfunctional aspects to almost everything. I just read a horrible article from a former contestant on the Biggest Loser who talked about the horrible lengths the show goes to per week, for weight loss and ratings. not that surprising, but weight loss and healthy living is good in and of itself, but the show's corrupted it. War was another example I used of an occasional necessary evil.

People do good things all the time for bad reasons. As I've said before, that is human nature, but is part of the message of the Bible to me. Transparency. More important than what's right and wrong, I think life is best spent living honestly and transparently with one another.

That would cut out a lot of bull crap in the world, lol. Intentions are far more important than actions in the Bible, and I agree. Sweep me off my feet, make all my dreams come true, but if you're not really doing it for the right reasons, then don't do it at all. Looking at the reasons people do things is far more important and revealing than what they do in my opinion. Sure no one is perfect, but we all can live a little more honestly with ourselves and one another.

That is when sometimes I think the Bible can seem overly judgmental and people start equating that with their intrinsic value. There's lots of things that could be better about the image of the gay community (as well as the straight, black, white, fill in the blank with whatever you like). No one is above reproach.

It's taken a long time, but I've totally reconciled my faith with my sexuality. Sure we can argue that I'm not interpreting it right, and no one really can, but I interpret it how I've mentioned above, and even if wrong, I feel like it would bring a lot more people together.
 
You have a point, at the same time not everything in the Bible is uninterpretable. Sometimes it's just flat out obvious. Also, you totally overlooked my points about health, which was the main point of my post anyway.

It may be hard to interpret, but if it doesn't mean what the original writers intended, it doesn't mean anything at all.

That is when sometimes I think the Bible can seem overly judgmental and people start equating that with their intrinsic value. There's lots of things that could be better about the image of the gay community (as well as the straight, black, white, fill in the blank with whatever you like). No one is above reproach.

Read strictly, the Bible is extremely judgmental, because it's trying to get across to us that nothing short of absolute perfection is acceptable. That's intended to trash our intrinsic value in our own eyes; indeed, a very strong argument can be made that unless your intrinsic value is zero in your own eyes, you aren't ready for a Savior.

But the Gospel comes and tells us that our intrinsic value in our own eyes is irrelevant. The only thing that matters is our intrinsic value in God's eyes, and if we are in Christ, we have the same intrinsic value to Him as Christ does, period. A Christian can be down on himself only insofar as he isn't recognizing the work of Christ, because it's only the work of Christ that makes him valuable. Nothing an individual does or fails to do affects our value in God's eyes so long as we are in Christ.

Thus Paul can honestly tell us that all things are lawful -- but not all are profitable/beneficial.
 
You have a point, at the same time not everything in the Bible is uninterpretable. Sometimes it's just flat out obvious. Also, you totally overlooked my points about health, which was the main point of my post anyway.

One a somewhat related note, there are dysfunctional aspects to almost everything. I just read a horrible article from a former contestant on the Biggest Loser who talked about the horrible lengths the show goes to per week, for weight loss and ratings. not that surprising, but weight loss and healthy living is good in and of itself, but the show's corrupted it. War was another example I used of an occasional necessary evil.

People do good things all the time for bad reasons. As I've said before, that is human nature, but is part of the message of the Bible to me. Transparency. More important than what's right and wrong, I think life is best spent living honestly and transparently with one another.

That would cut out a lot of bull crap in the world, lol. Intentions are far more important than actions in the Bible, and I agree. Sweep me off my feet, make all my dreams come true, but if you're not really doing it for the right reasons, then don't do it at all. Looking at the reasons people do things is far more important and revealing than what they do in my opinion. Sure no one is perfect, but we all can live a little more honestly with ourselves and one another.

That is when sometimes I think the Bible can seem overly judgmental and people start equating that with their intrinsic value. There's lots of things that could be better about the image of the gay community (as well as the straight, black, white, fill in the blank with whatever you like). No one is above reproach.

It's taken a long time, but I've totally reconciled my faith with my sexuality. Sure we can argue that I'm not interpreting it right, and no one really can, but I interpret it how I've mentioned above, and even if wrong, I feel like it would bring a lot more people together.

Thing is, your proscriptions of gayness for public hygiene, is exactly what I'm talking about. You and everyone else who believe have made a leap of faith about your personal Bible (usually loosely informed by some mainline Protestant or Catholic opinion) that is very true to you, which is fine, but that doesn't make any of those opinions definitive. I also acknowledge that the modern and largely secular West promotes pluralism over orthodoxy, with all that that implies.

When you mix in opinions like mine in which all of your interpretations are subjective, you get this hodgepodge, that there is no way to scripturally reconcile. I look at scripture as just literature, interesting maybe but there is no immediacy to it - it can call me an abomination, I don't give a damn; you on the other hand are looking at the implications (and damnation) of Divine Law, Kuli believes he is right in his interpretation, Baptists believe they are right - and so on endlessly. Each new era pushing newer and more "modern" interpretations. So be it, I'd far rather have happy hippie new age Christians than the Southern Baptists of my Grandmother's generation.

There is no original Bible, the OT especially has no "origin" we can pinpoint. Somewhere in the dim mists, somewhere in the (probably) Middle East is all we know, even classical copies are arguably thousands of years derivative, the gospels are less murky, in origin, yet still copies of copies. Taking words from even classical era texts and using modern interpretations of meaning, as some kind of definitive benchmark to contradict two thousand years of much more concrete history of repression seems like wishful thinking to me.

But then, such are the problems inherent in scripture based religions.
 
True. From what I understand the Jewish scribes copied the text not idea by idea, sentence by sentence, or even word by word, but letter by letter. So there is a higher chance of it being more like the original than someone who just copies even word for word. And there are many more copies that correlate with each other than many other ancient texts from what I understand. That alone is interesting, if nothing else.
 
Of course he could do more, the FACT is that Catholic Dogma does not accept homosexuality, where exactly has the Pope refuted this?

Just saying "be nice to the sinners..." doesn't mean you don't think they're sinners.

In my opinion, you are right e you are not right :)

Because of this dogma, Pope can't change radically that position from night to day. Step to step. He's doing the same in other issues, like divorce.

He has changed the church and that is changing the world. In Europe I feel this.
 
...Because of this dogma, Pope can't change radically that position from night to day. Step to step. He's doing the same in other issues, like divorce..

So are you channeling him or can you point us to where he's said he believes divorce and teh gey are just peachy keen?

If you can't, I'd be interested in learning how he divinely signaled you that he disagreed with either or both status quo doctrinal positions.

But then I'm not a Catholic, so maybe he did some kind of magical Catholic communication.
 
So are you channeling him or can you point us to where he's said he believes divorce and teh gey are just peachy keen?

If you can't, I'd be interested in learning how he divinely signaled you that he disagreed with either or both status quo doctrinal positions.

But then I'm not a Catholic, so maybe he did some kind of magical Catholic communication.

He tried, in practice and not only in theory: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ed-Catholics-unaware-of-real-life-Bishop.html

But yes, it's VERY difficult.
 
Read strictly, the Bible is extremely judgmental, because it's trying to get across to us that nothing short of absolute perfection is acceptable. That's intended to trash our intrinsic value in our own eyes; indeed, a very strong argument can be made that unless your intrinsic value is zero in your own eyes, you aren't ready for a Savior.

But the Gospel comes and tells us that our intrinsic value in our own eyes is irrelevant. The only thing that matters is our intrinsic value in God's eyes, and if we are in Christ, we have the same intrinsic value to Him as Christ does, period.

It makes me sad that there are enough people to believe this to constitute a religion. What a terrible and predatory falsehood.
 
He tried, in practice and not only in theory: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ed-Catholics-unaware-of-real-life-Bishop.html

But yes, it's VERY difficult.

No where in that does is say he disagreed with current Catholic doctrine. All it says is that he had a setback to being nice to sinners - in an article written by an ANGLICAN.

Cardinals based in Rome showed ‘lack of awareness’ of what life is really like over homosexuality and divorce, says Anglican delegate at the Catholic Synod of Bishops..,.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ed-Catholics-unaware-of-real-life-Bishop.html

Try an actual Catholic source next time.
 
"The crux of the matter, it seems to me, is simply that the Bible has no sexual ethic. There is no biblical sex ethic. The Bible knows only a love ethic, which is constantly being brought to bear on whatever sexual mores are dominant in any given country, or culture, or period."

That is from Walter Wink's booklet on Homosexuality and the Bible. It was written in the 90s and is a bit dated now, because he was speaking to those who were not open to LGBTQ folks in the early days of 'don't ask don't tell'.

http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=1265

There are many more books and articles on Biblical scholarship that speak in a more contemporary voice, but this one has historic value as it was the booklet that really opened dialog in the Church, and began the new understandings that the Church is moving towards.

In our own country, the United Church of Christ, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, the Episcopal Church, and the Presbyterian Church ordain LBGTQ people. (There is another major mainline that I cannot recall at the moment.) The Moravians are moving in that direction. The Disciples of Christ resist forbidding it. Marriage equality is supported by the four church bodies I named - the ELCA and Episcopalians are working on liturgies now, the UCC has forcefully advocated for marriage equality for a long time. The UCC sued North Carolina for passing a law forbidding clergy from performing same gender marriages.

Certainly one can name church bodies that resist understanding the equality of all people, but it seems that is so much harder to name the church bodies that are open. It is the Spirit moving in the Church. Many smaller non mainline church bodies welcome an ordain LGBTQ people who are called; independent catholic and Old Catholic church bodies in the US were established because of the Roman Catholic Church's stance on gender and sexuality issues. The Metropolitan Church was established for the same reasons with a more protestant flavor. In other church bodies, there are congregations and regional jurisdictions that are pressing their national church bodies to get on the right side of this.

Internationally there are many church bodies, especially in Canada, England, Australia, and Europe, which are on the right side of orientation, gender, and sexuality issues. Africa not so much. It will happen.

The various church bodies in the world are not monolithic. To claim that Christian church bodies reject compatibility between Christianity and orientations that are not heterosexual, that would be untrue. Judaism has its own parallels as do other faith traditions.

Obviously almost all of us have been hurt by things in the past. Some have worked very hard to open the doors to understanding, acceptance, equality. Biblical understandings have been questioned and filled with new insights. Theology has been re-stated, inclusivity under the ethic of love has been lifted up far more extensively.

Being Christian and being LGBTQ are core identities and compatible, in answer to the original post.

The question of Francis cannot be answered with absolutist statements. He has struggled with his own evolving understandings in many areas. He took some regrettable positions as archbishop of Argentina; his current position, being global, has expanded his pastoral ministry. He accomplished a lot of conversations within the Roman Catholic community with his statements. He is the leader of a church body that does not understand the calling of ordained ministry as being open to all of the baptized. He may not be at that point his own self. He is managing within his church body the beginnings of the conversations that have resulted in change and inclusivity in other church bodies. He cannot be said to be 'for' or 'against' anything, but he has gotten the conversation broadly extended. The local permanent deacon in the conservative area where I live has spoken of how Francis shocked people with some of his statements and have begun reconsidering their own closed understandings. He is doing perhaps all he can do, and, perhaps as the Spirit allows, he will do more, but in the Roman Catholic Church change comes slowly; it is a global church which has a block of theology that needs be reconsidered, and that is not a quick task.

For those who want now, and I am one of them, there are the Christian bodies that I have named that are there, now. For those who expect everyone in the Church to be on the same page, now, that isn't going happen. The Church is not monolithic in its earthy expressions and just as we see varieties of opinions, understandings, and life experiences here within the gay male community. We are not of one understanding and opinion on everything; nor is the Church. The Church universal is moving in these regards. There are places now for those who seek the sanction and sanctuary of the Church. There will be more.

For those who wish to live in the sins of the Church, I will not argue because that tends to go nowhere. It is akin to accepting or not accepting the sins of your nation and ethnic heritage. At the root of evil is sin and as we are sinful people in a sinful world, evil happens and sometimes we justify it we slap on approving labels of nation, state, ethnicity, a faith tradition. It is all wrong. Accepting our past and current wrongs can give us grounds to point fingers, or, it can call forth a righteous anger, repentance, and commitment to going forward with justice, equality, inclusion, as God has called us (for those who have a consciousness of God; for those who do not have a god-consciousness, there is an integrity and call of humanism, in all its secular forms, to move forward equally for justice, etc., and we ought to be doing so together, accepting each other, as humans in a world where there is much work to be done).

As I said, being a Christian and being LGBTQ, there is one-ness. We confess and teach that we are made in the image of God. God is not a gender or orientation. God is love, and thus, whatever piece of that image we exist in, we are called to love.
 
God doesn't forbid being gay but rather sinning.It is fine to get atrracted to the same sex but do not sin.It is the sin that God hates.It is a comment from someone that i find logical.I hope that helps. Take care and pray always :)
 
God doesn't forbid being gay but rather sinning.It is fine to get atrracted to the same sex but do not sin.It is the sin that God hates.It is a comment from someone that i find logical.I hope that helps. Take care and pray always :)

So god makes you want to suck cock then condemns you for it? Nice.

Sounds exactly like being gay is sinning. There is nothing "logical" about any of that.

I don't think that word means what you think it means...
 
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