Bradley Manning [merged]

[luckynumbah7]

Re: Bradley Manning, convicted of WikiLeaks disclosures, announces desire for gender reassignment

Respect isn't based on visual perception. It's about ceding to others wants and needs when there's no detriment to your own. Calling manning she and her doesn't hurt you or anyone else. Insisting you can call her what you wish because you have an opinion isn't respect.

 

[zombiekiller]

Re: Bradley Manning, convicted of WikiLeaks disclosures, announces desire for gender reassignment

And there are those who claim pain and injury that is self-induced or imagined.

Well, gee wiz, I think my point didn't really get across.

First of all, I used the example of that person plastering my name, info, pictures, and location all over the place for a reason. I had given him all those info at some point, so technically speaking it was his right to share those info with the public at large. In fact, every piece of the info about me that he posted on every forum he had access to can be found in the public domain. So, of course he had every right to simply repeat those info.

And much in the same way, if you see a person that is physically obviously a man, of course you are entitled to call that person he, him, etc. So, I fully support your right to continue to call Manning and other trans people by the pronouns that you want to call them.

That said, this is more of a courtesy thing. If I knew that a person prefers to be referred to as female even though everything else about that person screams male, I would consider it courteous to call that person a female. This isn't politically correct. This is just common courtesy.

And much in the same way, even though if you knew my name just a little bit of google search will turn up my pictures, address, job, etc. But if you knew that I do not like it that all my publically accessible info, pictures, location, address, etc. are purposely posted everywhere, I would consider it common courtesy that you do not go out of your way to look up everything about me within the public domain and post it everywhere you can.

Regarding feelings, you do have a very valid point. Your right DOES NOT end where my feelings begin. If I were to want others to start referring to me as a "she", you have every right to continue to refer to me as a "he" and any feelings on my part that are hurt are entirely on my part. You are not responsible for any feelings that are hurt by you calling me a "he" or "him".

That said, again I would consider it common courtesy that if I want to be referred to as a "she" then you would refer to me as a "she" or "her".

Try to think of it like driving. It is perfectly legal and probably expected that you do not let a car from a gas station to come out in front of you. Most people would just stop at a light and not even give it a second thought that someone is waiting in the gas station for an opportunity to pull into the street. You have every right to block that waiting car off by stopping right in front of the gas station. But it is a matter of common courtesy that you stop a little bit before the gas station and let that person pull into the street in front of you.

I hope I've made myself clear this time.

Added by edit.

Ok, here's an analogy that is more obvious and annoying. Many years ago, my partner was involved in a car crash that left him with a scar on his far.

So, technically speaking you can call him "scarface". You have every right to call him scarface. If you hurt his feelings, it is entirely on him. But I consider it common courtesy that we don't call him scarface.

 

[zombiekiller]

Re: Bradley Manning, convicted of WikiLeaks disclosures, announces desire for gender reassignment

There is no inherent disrespect in referring a man as he. Redefining respect doesn't accomplish that, nor does redefining disrespect.

Acquiescence is not respect. "A man who complieth against his will is of the same opinion still." Trying to force what is not actual is not the way to measure respect, nor to advance respect. It's simply a new form of the King's New Clothes.

And it isn't limited to any visual perception.

You are absolutely correct that there is no inherent disrespect in referring a man as he. And I don't think anyone actually disagrees with you on this.

What people, including myself, are trying to explain is just because you have a right to do something doesn't mean you should.

I'll give another example. In my backyard I have a tree that is really really big. It is big enough that it completely blocks off my next door neighbor's swimming pool area, and he loves that.

Last month, I wanted to cut down that tree because I thought it was getting too big. I remembered that my neighbor told me once that he really loved that tree for giving his pool area privacy. So, I asked him how he felt about me taking down that tree. He said that he would prefer me not doing it, but if I really wanted to then sure why not. So, I decided not to take that tree down. Leaving the tree as it is does not hurt me in any way or form. Doesn't alter anything. And it is MY TREE, so my neighbor does not have any inherent right to have it there. That said, out of neighborly courtesy, I decided to leave that tree standing.

Our social interaction with one another transcends our rights and what's inherently disrespectful or respectful. But what makes our communities so cohesive is at times we should consider what others think more than what's inherent this or that.

 

[luckynumbah7]

Re: Bradley Manning, convicted of WikiLeaks disclosures, announces desire for gender reassignment

With no intent to disrespect, denigrate, or mock a transgendered person's life, we certainly may have a legitimate right to express our own perception of that person in reference as male or female.

Actually, you don't. Or rather, you do have that right, but everyone else also has the right to say you're acting like an asshole for that same behavior. Intent is not magic. You may not intend to disrespect, denigrate or mock trans people when you refuse to use their preferred pronouns and insist they're really a ------, but that's what you're doing.

When someone says "Hey, you're stepping on my foot" the correct response isn't to insist their foot is just peachy right where it is. The correct response is to remove your damn foot.

And every time someone mentions the PC police I get this horrid urge to cackle madly. 'Politically Correct' is code for "Don't be a Dick" - and that's all it's code for.

In the immortal words of Daffy Duck;
"After all, it was me or him, and obviously it couldn't be me. It's a simple matter of logic. I'm not like other people, I can't stand pain, it hurts me."

 

[zombiekiller]

Re: Bradley Manning, convicted of WikiLeaks disclosures, announces desire for gender reassignment

I think we define a common courtesy quite differently, but I do think your post is reasoned and civil.

As a man who lets folks cut in all the time in traffic, I don't think I'm unfamiliar with the distinction you draw.

My point remains that how I treat them is the showing of respect, and no pronoun reference can be the basis for disrespect unless I make it a point to speak it to them or to somehow ridicule them for referring to self with the pronoun of their choice.

See, the line between showing respect in your own way and purposefully ridicule isn't always obvious.

About that person who probably spent several hours looking up all my publically accessible info, pictures, location, etc. about me and posted everything on half a dozen forums denied that he purposefully wanted to "hurt" me when I confronted him. He said that it was just a coincidence that he stumbled onto all my info and decided to let everyone see.

In fact, psychologists have coined a new term to describe purposefully offending people and not make it obvious enough for any repercussion. It's called micro-aggression. I'm sure you know what I'm talking about. There are very little and insignificant things that we can knowingly do that will drive specific people off the wall.

I found out that a long time ago my partner's mother used to call him "princess". Haha, ironic that he turned out to be gay... I bet his mom regretted giving him that nickname. Anyway, so I started calling him princess and he really hates it. I've stopped, but I know that referring to him as "princess" will drive him off the wall. To the rest of us, doesn't seem like much. But to him, it's a nerve.

The line between showing respect in your own way and being micro-aggressive isn't always clear. That's why I don't try to respect people in my own way but rather try to be courteous and respect them in their own way to a certain extent.

Cultural differences come to mind. Here in the west, it is considered polite that when you talk with someone you make eye contact. But in east asia where I'm from it is considered disrespectful to make constant eye contact. I know a couple white folks who every time they meet my parents they always open up their eyes wide and stare at my parents when they talk. Both my parents and I are convinced that they are just trying to irritate us. Of course we can't really prove it. Heck, you could even argue that they are just trying to respect my parents in their own way, by opening up their eyes really wide and stare at my parents every time they come around even though they know how annoyed my parents are at such act.

 

[Telstra]

Re: Bradley Manning, convicted of WikiLeaks disclosures, announces desire for gender reassignment

So this thread is about making fun of the whistle blower who shouldn't be in jail in the first place.
Shame on you.

 

[zombiekiller]

Re: Bradley Manning, convicted of WikiLeaks disclosures, announces desire for gender reassignment

So this thread is about making fun of the whistle blower who shouldn't be in jail in the first place.
Shame on you.

I honestly don't know what the intent of this thread is. But my opinion on Manning is

(1) Manning did break the law
(2) Manning's sentence is too damn harsh
(3) Manning's sentence should be dishonorably discharge and probation


In this case, the system failed Manning. I'm sorry she has to go through this.

 

[eastofeden]

Re: Bradley Manning, convicted of WikiLeaks disclosures, announces desire for gender reassignment

Cultural differences come to mind. Here in the west, it is considered polite that when you talk with someone you make eye contact. But in east asia where I'm from it is considered disrespectful to make constant eye contact. I know a couple white folks who every time they meet my parents they always open up their eyes wide and stare at my parents when they talk. Both my parents and I are convinced that they are just trying to irritate us. Of course we can't really prove it. Heck, you could even argue that they are just trying to respect my parents in their own way, by opening up their eyes really wide and stare at my parents every time they come around even though they know how annoyed my parents are at such act.

Do they know it is considered disrespectful? I always look directly into someone's eyes when I speak to them and if I am not looking into your eyes...it means I don't like you and would rather not be talking to you.

 

[zombiekiller]

Re: Bradley Manning, convicted of WikiLeaks disclosures, announces desire for gender reassignment

Do they know it is considered disrespectful? I always look directly into someone's eyes when I speak to them and if I am not looking into your eyes...it means I don't like you and would rather not be talking to you.

Yes, I've told them several times.

Let me ask you this. When you look someone in the eyes as a sign of respect, do you open up your eyes really wide and stare? Why is it that they started doing this (opening their eyes really wide and just stare at my parents) after I told them about our culture?

Again, I can't prove that they intentionally want to annoy my parents. But take it for what it's worth.

Goddamn it, the system has taken 30 minutes already to scan my submitted program. Hurry the hell up so I can get off work!

 

[luckynumbah7]

Re: Bradley Manning, convicted of WikiLeaks disclosures, announces desire for gender reassignment

To the best of my knowledge no one is saying that you can't say whatever the hell you want. What we're saying is it's generally rude and inconsiderate at best to say whatever you want. And I'm saying that if someones' feelings are hurt by what you said you can't just claim that it doesn't matter what pronouns you use because it's an 'objective opinion'.

 

[Telstra]

Re: Bradley Manning, convicted of WikiLeaks disclosures, announces desire for gender reassignment

Dejavu has the habit of annoying me way over the top.
I nearly use the block button for the first time

 

[eastofeden]

Re: Bradley Manning, convicted of WikiLeaks disclosures, announces desire for gender reassignment

Yes, I've told them several times.

Let me ask you this. When you look someone in the eyes as a sign of respect, do you open up your eyes really wide? Why is it that they started doing this (opening their eyes really wide and just stare at my parents) after I told them about our culture?

Again, I can't prove that they intentionally want to annoy my parents. But take it for what it's worth.

I don't know if my eyes are wide or not because this comes to me naturally and I don't really think about it....but I do listen intently to other people if I like them and I enjoy direct eye contact.

If someone explained to me about the cultural difference.... and if I thought they were being straight up with me versus some bizarre need to control other people as some people really like to compulsively dictate to others how to behave...then yes...I would respect it the best I could. I would probably limit my my contact though with short and polite interaction versus meaningful conversation because anything more than a few minutes of pleasantries would be contrary to what it natural and comfortable for me.

 

[G-Lexington]

Re: Bradley Manning, convicted of WikiLeaks disclosures, announces desire for gender reassignment

You also seemed to infer that I implied your parents and friends were dicks to make mistakes, when it was plain in my post that the intent of your sister-in-law was the dickish reference.

It still gets down to the PC policing that LGBT courts, trying to compel people beyond respect and into some sort of slavish obedience to prescribed terminology and language.

In reference to the first bit, precisely so. My parents might occasionally call me by my birth name out of habit, and I don't consider that dickish behavior. I made that clear not to suggest you considered my parents dickish, but to establish clearly that I'm fine with people slipping up occasionally, especially if it was done simply out of habit. And most transgendered people are aware, especially during the process, that they will be misidentied. That they will seem more mannish or effeminate than they would wish. And in doing so, when they're called "sir" or "ma'am", they usually don't take it as an attack. It can be worrisome, like perhaps when we hear "do you have a girlfriend?", and perhaps they'll let it slde instead of correcting the speaker, just as we might.

The difference seems to be that if I say "Actually, I prefer to be called Lex", you seem fine with that. You don't seem to feel that I'm steamrolling over your rights to call me what you wish, and that I'm insisting via some PC thought-police action to force you to conform to my world view. You just think "Oh, OK, he'd like to be called Lex - I can do that." Whereas if you called someone "sir", and she responded "Actually, I identify as female - please call me Jenny"...you DO seem to think of it that way.

A FtM Facebook-friend was at a Mammoth game recently, and I saw her at the bar after the game. I called her over, and introduced her to my other friends at the table. "This is Sarah - she's a Facebook friend of mine." We chatted a bit, and then she went on her way. One of my friends at the tablewas a bit confused, and said, "What did you say his name was?" "Sarah," I said. "She's transitioning to female." "Oh, OK." That was it. And when Sarah stopped by at the next game, my friend called her "Sarah" and "her". No big deal.

Lex

 

[luckynumbah7]

Re: Bradley Manning, convicted of WikiLeaks disclosures, announces desire for gender reassignment

I honestly don't know what the intent of this thread is. But my opinion on Manning is

(1) Manning did break the law
(2) Manning's sentence is too damn harsh
(3) Manning's sentence should be dishonorably discharge and probation


In this case, the system failed Manning. I'm sorry she has to go through this.

Agreed. Although I am curious what files, exactly, she leaked. I know some of them were abuses (and I'm very, very glad they came to light) but I'd like to know what the rest contained overall. In other words, I wonder why not-abuse files were leaked if they had no connection. At least that's what I heard, I haven't researched it in depth. Depending on what other files were leaked, I'd give an honorable discharge. The letter of the law was broken, but the intent to uphold the law could be intact - again, depending on what other files were leaked.

 

[zombiekiller]

Re: Bradley Manning, convicted of WikiLeaks disclosures, announces desire for gender reassignment

I don't know if my eyes are wide or not because this comes to me naturally and I don't really think about it....but I do listen intently to other people if I like them and I enjoy direct eye contact.

If someone explained to me about the cultural difference.... and if I thought they were being straight up with me versus some bizarre need to control other people as some people really like to compulsively dictate to others how to behave...then yes...I would respect it the best I could. I would probably limit my my contact though with short and polite interaction versus meaningful conversation because anything more than a few minutes of pleasantries would be contrary to what it natural and comfortable for me.

You don't understand. They never did this before I told them about the cultural differences. Before I told them, they would just look at us and talk regularly. But after I told the, they started purposefully open up their eyes wide and just stare at my parents.

There's a difference between making eye contact and listen intently and just open up your eyes really wide and stare.

I knew you wouldn't believe me. And I knew if I bring this up most people would try to make excuses for these folks. This is why micro-aggression is hard to prove.

Next time when you interact with someone, try to strain your eyes open as wide as you can and just stare at them. I think even white people would start feeling uncomfortable with you after a while.

 

[luckynumbah7]

Re: Bradley Manning, convicted of WikiLeaks disclosures, announces desire for gender reassignment

And most transgendered people are aware, especially during the process, that they will be misidentied. That they will seem more mannish or effeminate than they would wish. And in doing so, when they're called "sir" or "ma'am", they usually don't take it as an attack. It can be worrisome, like perhaps when we hear "do you have a girlfriend?", and perhaps they'll let it slde instead of correcting the speaker, just as we might.

Yes, thank you. We expect slips and people who aren't aware to misgender. We know they're not doing it out of malice. Usually trans people let it slide, unless we plan on returning to a particular place often or if we're going to have some ongoing relationship with a person - doctor, barista that serves you coffee every morning that you get to know, D&D gaming, et cetera and so forth. After someone is informed of pronoun preference, we still expect slips, because it's human nature. Hell, trans people slip with each other, but we know damn well that it's not malicious. Pronouns can be tricksy little buggers - I hear cis people slip with other cis people often enough, and no one else seems to notice because the pronoun occasionally used is not what someone expects to hear. But there's a difference between someone slipping and someone who doesn't give a damn and it's usually pretty easy to tell which is which.

 

[eastofeden]

Re: Bradley Manning, convicted of WikiLeaks disclosures, announces desire for gender reassignment

You don't understand. They never did this before I told them about the cultural differences. Before I told them, they would just look at us and talk regularly. But after I told the, they started purposefully open up their eyes wide and just stare at my parents.

There's a difference between making eye contact and listen intently and just open up your eyes really wide and stare.

I knew you wouldn't believe me. And I knew if I bring this up most people would try to make excuses for these folks. This is why micro-aggression is hard to prove.

Next time when you interact with someone, try to strain your eyes open as wide as you can and just stare at them. I think even white people would start feeling uncomfortable with you after a while.

You are correct...I don't understand now why you would have anything to do with them.

 

[luckynumbah7]

Re: Bradley Manning, convicted of WikiLeaks disclosures, announces desire for gender reassignment

I knew you wouldn't believe me. And I knew if I bring this up most people would try to make excuses for these folks. This is why micro-aggression is hard to prove.

Next time when you interact with someone, try to strain your eyes open as wide as you can and just stare at them. I think even white people would start feeling uncomfortable with you after a while.

You don't even have to open your eyes wide and stare - just wear a pair of sunglasses out. The smartass remarks and snarky aggression you can get is truly astounding, particularly if you're not in a city. For some reason once you put on sunglasses everyone thinks you're staring at them and they really don't like it. Particularly white people. I currently live in a mostly black neighborhood in the city, and they don't seem to care nearly as much as white people out of the city. I hate micro aggression, most of my current roommates excel in it. Goes right along with their passive aggressiveness.

If your parents want to make them uncomfortable enough to leave without being seen as rude, just put on a pair of dark sunglasses in their presence, preferably inside a house. Claim eyestrain or optical migrain, after a few visits the racist dicks should mellow out and knock it off.

 

[eastofeden]

Re: Bradley Manning, convicted of WikiLeaks disclosures, announces desire for gender reassignment

You don't even have to open your eyes wide and stare - just wear a pair of sunglasses out. The smartass remarks and snarky aggression you can get is truly astounding, particularly if you're not in a city. For some reason once you put on sunglasses everyone thinks you're staring at them and they really don't like it. Particularly white people. I currently live in a mostly black neighborhood in the city, and they don't seem to care nearly as much as white people out of the city. I hate micro aggression, most of my current roommates excel in it. Goes right along with their passive aggressiveness.

If your parents want to make them uncomfortable enough to leave without being seen as rude, just put on a pair of dark sunglasses in their presence, preferably inside a house. Claim eyestrain or optical migrain, after a few visits the racist dicks should mellow out and knock it off.

LMAO...too much. So..."white people" don't like it when you wear sunglasses? ...and you are worrying about other people's use of pronouns?

 

[luckynumbah7]

Re: Bradley Manning, convicted of WikiLeaks disclosures, announces desire for gender reassignment

Listen very closely, I'm only going to say this once, in a manner of speaking.

Yes.

White people hate it when you wear sunglasses indoors. I'm not so blind that I can't (usually) tell the color of someone's skin (although it depends on lighting for me), although I make no promises on any facial features as my vision fluctuates from horrid to nonexistent. Most white people have apologized for their behavior about wearing sunglasses to me after they see my cane - which is white with a red bottom. In other words, I use a cane for the blind because of low vision. Black people (at least so far, knock on wood) have not been dicks about my sunglasses. I also specified white people that aren't in the city, because most white people in the city, surprise surprise, keep to themselves. Just like everyone else in the city.

When I said people assume you're staring at them when you wear sunglasses indoors, I meant it. You wear them 24/7 everywhere for a year or two and compile the reactions you get. There's a noticeable trend there.

And yes, I worry about pronouns. I worry about pronouns because I'm trans. Any more questions?