Discrimination against the older gay man

[NickCole]

That said, I do try and separate the wheat from the chaff. Some people strike me as being not interested in empathy so much as pity. There is a world of difference BTW. Just because someone feels sorry for themselves doesn't mean that everyone else is going to or should.

I haven't suggested you feel sorry for anybody. I've suggested empathy. I've suggested talking to, listening to, middle aged gay men who are sitting alone and eyeing you.

Chances are, when you hit middle-age you will be broadsided by what you discover has descended upon you, and that includes the way some 20-somethings behave towards you...

I doubt it very much. I'd say it is much more likely that by the time I'm middle aged the only 20 year olds I'll be particularly obsessed with are my children. I have this crazy notion that I have some control over my destiny...choices matter. I'm in school, not out on the party circuit. I'm in a stable long term relationship, not chasing everything in pants.

You're right that choices matter, and kudos to you for knowing that and taking responsibility for the direction of your life. I mean that. It's going to make a difference.

However, that does not give you control over your destiny.

Life does not go the way we expect.

More to the point, if for some reason in middle aged I find myself trolling bars looking to men young enough to be my children for sexual favours, I fully expect that blunt rejection will be the norm, not the exception. IMO that is as it should be.

Whether or not that's how it "should" be, my point was the way it feels on the other side of those 40 year old eyes. Your apparent disinterest in knowing about that while denigrating their interest in younger men doesn't do a lot to support your claim of empathy.

Respect, you will note, not sexual obligation. Their are currently only two surviving Canadian WWI vets. I may owe my freedom to them and possibly my very existence...It doesn't mean that I'm obliged to give them head if they want it.

I never said anybody is obligated to provide sexual favors for anybody else. Ever.

I suggested talking for a few minutes.

And you seem to totally miss that it's a compliment when anyone looks at you with interest -- and that's a nice thing. It's your interpretation and arrogance (or fear) that turns it into something unpleasant. If you're not interested, say no thanks without qualification. Is that really such a burden?

As for the AIDS crisis, it's a legacy, yes legacy, that my generation was born into and deals with every day. Not a single day goes by when we don't think about it, talk about it, read about, learn about it. Don't presume to lecture me about the cost and consequences of HIV/AIDS. I have never know a time when it didn't exist, you did.

Yes and I know what it is to tap the "Play" button of my answering machine expecting to hear my good friend Greg say, "wanna go out tonight" and hear instead, "I'm sick," then a week later stand senseless in his hospital room while the nurses unplug his machines, wondering what the hell killed a 22 year old who was healthy ten days ago. I know what it is to meet my friends at hospitals and memorial services, dead, six months after we'd met at clubs and thought we'd be friends the rest of our lives. I buried dozens of my friends. Think a minute, right now. Think of your friends. Every one of them, one by one; look through your address book. Then imagine all but two of them dead in the next few years. Think what kind of impact that might have when you reach middle age. Think what might be going through your mind as you look at 22 year olds thirty years after dozens of your friends died at that age. And you still miss them.

I don't want or need your pity or sympathy, and I don't know any middle aged gay man who does. Shit happens. We live through it. We make new friends; those of us who were lucky fell in love again. But you might have the sense to recognize that that living through that was devastating in a way you can't imagine. I'm sorry you don't know what it's like to be gay without AIDS looming over you; honestly I am because it was a wonderful time and I wish I could give you a few years of it. But it's a double edged sword. We were dancing in the middle of a party, just barely having liberated ourselves from the chains of discrimination, and without a moment's notice bombs came from all directions.

Frankly, I can't imagine being 22, having the opportunity to hear first-hand what it was like, and not asking but instead being defensive about middle aged men showing interest in me. But that's me. When I'm at a party with hot men and a Holocaust survivor, you'll find me with the old guy.

Anyway. After reading this thread and some others here the past several months, I thank God I'm not interested in going to gay bars anymore. I can only imagine how painful it is for middle aged guys to be met with attitudes like yours in this and your previous post. And it's a shame because the truth is gay men, all people, of different ages have a lot we can share with each other and we're all richer for it when we do.

 

[CagedBird]

the only older guys that I've talked to that don't get laid that often are the ones that let themselves go.... but then again that has nothing to do with their age.. because the young guys who let themelves go don't get picked up as often either...

What puka-pride says appeals to me; as truth in the real world of dating anyway.

I work to keep myself in shape. I believe it its due to this in part that I was hit on by a man 6 years younger than myself. Being positive goes a long way too for "mature" men, as it is easy to get bitter/cynical when we age.

If you believe "age is just a number", your youthful spirit will have broad appeal across the generations.

 

[tbonez]

I haven't suggested you feel sorry for anybody. I've suggested empathy. I've suggested talking to, listening to, middle aged gay men who are sitting alone and eyeing you.

I'm not sure how I can be more clear, but I'll give it one more shot:

If someone is sitting across a bar, alone and "eyeing" me it makes me uncomfortable. It's doesn't make a stick of difference if they are 60 or 16 or wearing a clown suit with a handful of balloons and candy floss. If you chose to interpret my reaction as "ageism", arrogance or a lack of empathy that is YOUR baggage, not mine.

I never said anybody is obligated to provide sexual favors for anybody else. Ever.

No you didn't. On that point we are in 100% agreement it appears. I'm glad we can agree on something.

I suggested talking for a few minutes..

And I clearly and repeated said I would and I do DESPITE my debilitating shyness. It's actually something I work very hard at.

Yes and I know what it is to tap the "Play" button of my answering machine expecting to hear my good friend Greg say, "wanna go out tonight" .... And you still miss them..

It seems ageism cuts both ways. Middle aged men don't have a monopoly on grief or loss. A little over a year ago one of my best friends hanged himself behind a house just off Church Street. As for AIDS, perhaps another day I could e-mail you some of my personal pictures from an orphanage in Soweto where half the children are HIV positive with the most dire and desperate of lives. Please don't assume that somehow because I'm in my early twenties I don't grasp the full gravity and horror of HIV/AIDS. That would be the unfairness cut of all.

Anyway. After reading this thread and some others here the past several months, I thank God I'm not interested in going to gay bars anymore. I can only imagine how painful it is for middle aged guys to be met with attitudes like yours .....

To me that speaks more to your comprehension than my callousness. You clearly know nothing of my "attitude" and I suspect you would rather wallow in your misconceptions than hear the truth as I have, to the best of my limited ability, tried to clarify it. That, and likely nothing else, does deserve my pity I suppose.

 

[screwnutty]

Wow...okay we've gotten off topic here. Let's just settle this by saying that it really does not matter. If somebody turns you down or rejects you, and your a nice person then it's there lost. One man's garbage is another man's treasure. Also it's human nature to crave what you can't have.

Who cares if you get turned down because of your looks, age, race, body smell. WHO CARES. GEE, ME...I'm overweight. I'm not the ideal looking person that you want to hook up with. Your never going to see me in a magazine or a tv show and I sure as hell will never live up to some people's standards on this site. But what do I have going for me? Well I'm HUMAN. That is I have faults just like everybody else does. My strengths are not based on my looks and I don't own fancy clothes nor do I run out and buy the $120.00 cologne so that I smell like the in thing of the month. My strengths are better then that. I have the ability to read people, to listen, to humour, to make them feel like family. To say the things they want to hear. To make you laugh. I can be a charmer when i need to be and the best is I'm an ice breaker....if there's tension in the room I can usually get rid of it.

So yeah those skills stay with me as I age. I find them more useful then looks anyday. So why are we so concerned again about young pups, old pups, age thingy again? Anybody up for a game of Euchre?