Everybody Knows You're Gay!

[Lube]

Lube's heart really is in the right place and I respect him for that, but I really wish he would acknowledge what you've just said, Travisevian.


Today, it IS still a big issue to be out at work, at school and at home. It DOES cause problems, and thousands of young gay people are depressed, alone or even suicidal because of these issues. . .which is the reason there are outreach charities, centers, telephone hot-lines and websites for GLBT Youth.

look, I'm not being Pollyanna-ish here. I'm not sweeping problems under the rug. But As I've so clearly written, things are much easier than they used to be. Sure, there are still people that need to be helped, but does that mean you should remain closeted?

There's tons of racial and religious and disability discrimination. Does that mean every Hispanic, black guy, deaf guy, or Muslim should run and hide his identity to try to fit in?

No.

So why should gay guys be given a free pass?

I have a Hispanic-sounding last name even though I'm not Hispanic. I'm sure there's been subtle discrimination throughout my life. I just have to deal with that.

I dated a Deaf guy. He had to deal with being Deaf and gay. But he does it with pride, not by being a coward, even if he does get taunted.

There are so many resources nowadays, like the Internet and the very outreach programs you mention, that didn't exist 20 or 30 years ago.

Nobody said life was easy. Cowering behind a glass closet that most people can see right through accomplishes nothing except in your own constructed reality.

 

[braex27]

No, nowadays, coming out means just being honest. When the subjects of dates or weekends or social activities come up, you honestly tell people who you've been dating or which bars you've gone to or who you find hot at the movies or on TV.

Because if you don't talk about these things, people can immediately tell you're hiding something, and just assume you're gay.

And your friends who aren't interested in who you're dating and don't reveal who they're dating? They're just as gay as you are. Now admit that you've had suspicions about them all along.

Point taken about coming out but as for the remainder, we'll have to agree to disagree, I think.

My private life will remain decidedly that: private. My policy is, if I start talking about it then its an implicit licence for other people to talk about it and frankly, I am not okay with other people talking about it. Hmm, as for my weekends - I'll say where I went, what I did... I tend to be generic about who I go out with. I find "with friends" is sufficient.

As for who I find hot in the movies, TV, on the street, at work...etc., I freely talk about this, or respond when asked but I don't think this necessarily leads to a conclusion of homosexuality. Lots of my straight friends talk about the hotness of both men and women.

As for whether people think I'm gay because I don't talk about these things - some people are bound to, regardless - and others could care less. As for me and being suspicious - I think I am too self-centred to dwell too much on my friends' private lives to work out if they're gay or not...

 

[Lube]

I don't like that comparison. ....

I didn't feel like a fool, I felt fortunate..

Whether or not you like something has nothing to do with whether it's apt or not.

People are complex. You can feel foolish and loved and respected and fortunate all at the same time.

 

[Lube]

My private life will remain decidedly that: private.

In your own mind, only. Just because you want something to be, doesn't mean it is.

My policy is, if I start talking about it then its an implicit licence for other people to talk about it and frankly, I am not okay with other people talking about it. Hmm, as for my weekends - I'll say where I went, what I did... I tend to be generic about who I go out with. I find "with friends" is sufficient.

You say "my policy" as if people are bound to obey your policy. Wake up; they're not.

If you're not OK with them talking about it, then at least admit that you haven't really accepted yourself. You're still on the road to accepting your gayness. All us out, proud guys have traveled that road. We know what you're going through.

Being "generic" about who you go out with is THE CLINCHER that tells straight people you're gay. Seriously.

As for who I find hot in the movies, TV, on the street, at work...etc., I freely talk about this, or respond when asked but I don't think this necessarily leads to a conclusion of homosexuality. Lots of my straight friends talk about the hotness of both men and women.

You mean your closeted friends. Please, skip the rant about how open-minded people are these days. Man-crushes are the surest sign of a closeted gay man. It's funny how closeted men think they're the only closeted men, and everyone else is straight. There are lots of guys like you, Braex, lots of your friends.

As for whether people think I'm gay because I don't talk about these things - some people are bound to, regardless - and others could care less. As for me and being suspicious - I think I am too self-centred to dwell too much on my friends' private lives to work out if they're gay or not...

That's exactly the excuse that closeted guys give about feigning lack of interest in their friends' sexuality: If I act disinterested in theirs, they'll be disinterested in mine. See my dog analogy in my siggie. (Also known on JUB as The Elephant in the Room.)

What kinds of friends are these (and what kind of a friend are you?!) if you're/they're not interested in one of the most important aspects of your friends' lives: relationships? I don't understand what kind of "friendship" that is. Seriously, I don't. Knowing about relationships is what distinguishes an acquaintance from a friend.

 

[Lube]

I'm not trying to pick on you, personally, Braex27.

I'm trying to poke holes in this virtual reality that you (and so many closeted gay men) construct.

Nobody believes in this "reality" except you. (See thread title)

Accepting that will make it much easier to accept yourself and come out.

 

[Lube]

I completely disagree with this.

~Out Gay Man

If, out of everything I've written, that's all you have a problem with, I'm totally ok with that.

For whom?

For whom isn't it?

 

[altlover85]

Lube, I can say which girls are hot, but that doesn't mean I'm planning on sleeping with them. I think in general people are more open about who they find attractive nowadays and it doesn't necessarily reflect on their sexuality.

I do agree with you about the difference between friends and acquaintances. If I can't talk to you about relationships then I don't think we're really that close as friends. But perhaps this distinction is somewhat malleable.

If braex doesn't want to talk about his relationships or hear others talk about their relationships I think that says more about him as a person and less about whether or not he is in the closet.

As far as this easier to come out or not easier to come out business, perhaps we should define easier.

I'm think one way of thinking about easier, stems from an idea of coming out as being overall an easier process because of the resources available.

Another way of thinking about it focuses on the individual coming out and how the journey can still be difficult and resources in some areas can be scarce.

 

[Lube]

Lube, I can say which girls are hot, but that doesn't mean I'm planning on sleeping with them. I think in general people are more open about who they find attractive nowadays and it doesn't necessarily reflect on their sexuality.

If you're not at all sexually attracted to someone, you cannot, by definition, have an opinion on their hotness. You can say they're pretty or handsome or sculpted or classically beautiful, but you cannot say hot. Hot is a sexual attraction term, not a beauty term.

"He's hot" = "I want to fuck him!"

"He's beautiful" = "He should be a model."

For example, even though I'm gay, Zac Efron does nothing for me. I can understand and agree with people who say he's slim, or smooth, or pretty, or pleasant, or even easy on the eyes. I mean, I don't think he's ugly or anything. But hot? No. I don't want to fuck him.

So any "straight" guys talking about the "hotness" of a guy are probably not very straight. Just sayin'.

As far as this easier to come out or not easier to come out business, perhaps we should define easier.

I'm think one way of thinking about easier, stems from an idea of coming out as being overall an easier process because of the resources available.

Another way of thinking about it focuses on the individual coming out and how the journey can still be difficult and resources in some areas can be scarce.

While we certainly live in heteronormative times, there are plenty of gay athletes, gay movie stars, gay businessmen, gay artists, gay musicians, gay politicians... hell, there are even gay clergy for god's sake.

Anyone who can access this forum certainly has all the tools they need for self-discovery and coming out. More tools and interpersonal relationships are better, of course, but as soon as you start giving people reasons not to come out, they'll insist that excuse applies to them, giving them cover for another year.

I know that coming out is a process. I went through it myself. It was quite fast. (My denial, unfortunately, lasted decades, but once I admitted to myself I was gay, I was out in a few months.)

I don't begrudge guys some time to come to accept themselves. What I'm saying is that the endless protestations of "I'll come out when I'm good and darn ready" is usually aided and abetted by the thought that no one knows I'm gay because I haven't told them, and thus I can stay in the closet as long as I like.

And that is patently false.

Because everyone knows you're gay.

And I mean, really. Look at little kids. You can tell from a very early age which ones are gonna be gay. And they're not even sexual or flamboyant or waving rainbow flags yet. They're just indescribably gay. They're different.

 

[erobert]

No, nowadays, coming out means just being honest. When the subjects of dates or weekends or social activities come up, you honestly tell people who you've been dating or which bars you've gone to or who you find hot at the movies or on TV.

Because if you don't talk about these things, people can immediately tell you're hiding something, and just assume you're gay.

And your friends who aren't interested in who you're dating and don't reveal who they're dating? They're just as gay as you are. Now admit that you've had suspicions about them all along.

*Standing ovation* Couldn't have said it better myself. Agree with everything you've written also.

As for the possibility of friends being gay or bi on some level like attracts like. At least that been my experience with many of my friends.

 

[altlover85]

Lube, here's the definition of hot off of Urban Dictionary.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=hot

There are multiple definitions, but I think the first part of the first definition best sums up how I feel. A close second would be the third definition.

 

[altlover85]

I think we're running in circles here. It is easier to be gay now than before in the general sense because you have more places you can go to be who you are. There are places were things haven't changed much, but it's not quite the same because there are more resources available for those who are questioning their sexuality. It's up to the person to use them or not.

 

[Lube]

*Standing ovation* Couldn't have said it better myself. Agree with everything you've written also.

As for the possibility of friends being gay or bi on some level like attracts like. At least that been my experience with many of my friends.

Thanks, hon!

Lube, here's the definition of hot off of Urban Dictionary.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=hot

There are multiple definitions, but I think the first part of the first definition best sums up how I feel. A close second would be the third definition.

That's funny, because I looked it up after posting. The only thing that *all* 6 or 7 definitions on the first page have in common? Yup, sexual attraction.

No, as I've already mentioned, it is not necessarily easier for someone to come out today than it was many years ago, especially for the socially isolated people in rural areas. In my area, being homosexual is the only thing that is considered worse than being pregnant out of wedlock or child abuse. If it were truly easier, there wouldn't be so many men living double lives today, like the young gay man I met a few years ago who now claims to be a heterosexual born-again Christian and is married to a woman. He doesn't want to be an openly gay social pariah, like me.

Wait, why is it not easier now where you are? Are you saying people had the equivalent of the Internet back then or gay role models? Because even you in east-butt-fuck-wherever-you-are have those resources now. People may be relatively ignorant where you but they are not as ignorant as they were 30 years ago, right?

I think we're running in circles here. It is easier to be gay now than before in the general sense because you have more places you can go to be who you are. There are places were things haven't changed much, but it's not quite the same because there are more resources available for those who are questioning their sexuality. It's up to the person to use them or not.

Yes, we're starting to go in circles. That's when I usually leave JUB and come back in a few months to have the same discussion with new people, LOL. It takes time for what I'm saying to sink in.

 

[rareboy]

Seriously Jockstraps, if you throw a hissy like this over Lube's post, everyone totally knows you're an hysterical over-reacting homo.

 

[Lube]

Travis, I can virtually assure you, however bad it is now, it was probably far worse 30 years ago. You probably couldn't be out at all, or you'd be in jail. Are you in jail?

Sure, you think your life is crap, but I don't think you really understand just how much crappier it could be.

*Cue Claire from Six Feet Under*


However, let me say that you are very likely a role model for others that have yet to come out. And I think you should be very, very proud of that fact. You may think your life is crap and you have no effect on others, but I assure you that you do. You may not see it, you may not hear about it, but there's many a GLBT kid who sees you being out and has a glimmer of hope that maybe someday he can be out.

 

[Lube]

No but my mother keeps telling me that if I get arrested, she doesn't have the bail money. I think she thinks I'm like the male version of Jane Fonda. If I were a woman in 1970, I would totally have burned my bra.

Ha ha, nice!

Thank you. I really hope that I have made a difference for those kids but where's my gay role model and mentor?

Are you whining?

You're welcome. Your role models will have to be distant, I'm afraid. But at least they exist. Out people like Barney Frank, Neil Patrick Harris, Ricky Martin, Ellen DeGeneres, Michael Stipe, etc., etc., simply didn't exist 30 years ago. At least now you can say, "See, Mom, all these famous politicians, businessmen, actors, musicians, are popular and rich. I could be that way, too!". As for a mentor, well, it sounds like the Internet is your best friend here. How far away are you from even a medium-sized city?

We have a good friend who's part native American and from the deep South, and he had to hightail it out of there. His family still doesn't acknowledge him. But he's since gone on to Ivy League school and has become very, very successful.

Life is tough for the pioneers. They're the ones with the arrows in their backs.

 

[2008spike]

Yay! I love the replies! All of them. One unintentionally funny, even.

Yes, I am being at least partially tongue-in-cheek, of course. I certainly can't force anyone out of the closet.

Yes, everyone needs time to come out, but so many guys think they're fooling people while they scrounge up the courage. And my point is simply that you're not fooling them, so why don't you scrounge up the courage a little sooner?

And, really, ethnic minorities and people with disabilities don't have the luxury of hiding in a closet. They have to deal with hatred and fear and ignorance every day. So why can't gays man up and do the same thing.

Especially when you're not fooling anyone?

yr an idiot

 

[geloge]

^Not, he isn't. He is just giving some advice. Listen to him or move on, not need of insulting.

 

[Joshua_me]

"Time outs us all." -- Joshua_Me

One of the most eloquent four words I've ever seen on JUB.

Well, goodness... Thank you.

Also, I think it's important not to take our "Gaydar" for granted. I think we can spot another person's gayness more accurately than str8 folks can.

Keep in mind some of middle America was *shocked* to find out Rosie O'Donnell and Clay Aiken were gay ! They seemingly had no clue.

There are a couple of folks on this thread who have said they are still in the closet and no one suspects anything, but I have seen videos of them and I would have known in 10 seconds time. But, that's the gaydar thing again.

Yes, the closet is a dark, cold and lonely place. Coming out is the very best thing I ever did... But, you can't force it on anyone. Everyone must follow their own drummer, and all of that stuff...

 

[mydrew1]

Bush's campaign manager 2004-6 came out. Lol

 

[bendted]

Bush's campaign manager 2004-6 came out. Lol

Perfect example of someone who thought that he was "straight acting/looking" and that people "didn't know" but in reality came across as a flaming faggot, and anyone with half a brain knew his "secret."