Faggotty Me!

[StlKj]

Words like "foul" and "disgusting" just really don't hold enough power in some circumstances.

and that's in reference to an opinion, not a personal attack. just to clarify.

 

[ljghba1]

mystik, im not gonna go as far as to say that you are a homophobe as some have called you...but you certainly have a seriously twisted view on this matter...

I use to be a lot like you...i hated queens because of what my straight friends said about them while i was in the closet. I just wanted to scream at them that not every homosexual is like that. I personally like to fuck "straight acting" bearish men but i certainly will not be angry with someone who is comfortable with the way they are i.e. queeny. but the truth of the matter is that even if all gays were "straight-acting" do you honestly think they wouldn't have anything bad to say about us? things like "pole-sucker" or "mud-sticker" and other derogatory things come to mind. They are ALWAYS going to hate and make fun of what they don't understand regardless if someone is acting effeminate or straight.

you say that these queens make it harder for gays to come out. that could not be further from reality. what makes it harder for gays to come out is that WE are different. And as history has shown, what is different, is never easily accepted.

I really don't understand when you say "because of parents who are given the misconceptions about what being Gay is and what Gay people "look like." first of all being gay means that you like to fuck other dudes, and its not about what people look like. second of all if a straight man had highlights on his hair, likes eyeliner, ect. "normal" people would still have a problem with it and would look down upon it, being gay doesn't have anything to do with it. I have a few straight friends who act effiminate because thats just who they are...but i suppose they should act like a REAL man too.

ignorant people are always going to hate and have stereotypical images of gays regardless of what people look like. it all comes down to just being different from the norm...so let people be who they are...they are not the ones effecting the gay image, its the people who are ignorant who do not think that gays come in all shapes, sizes, and demeanors.

 

[Ares]

**reference to now deleted post deleted**

I have. I never said for Blacks to suppress themselves, but I have indicated my desire to see a colorless society in which everyone essentially naturally blends in with everyone else, which also includes Gays.

So diversity of any kind is the issue here.

There are so many different kinds of people out there. Even if you don't understand them, just respect them as people and move on.

Hell, some of my straight friends do more womanly things than I do. I am one of the only ones in my circle of friends that doesn't go tanning lol. Also, there are straight men out there getting waxed, plucked, getting skin treatments, getting highlights, and wearing guyliner. So what makes a "real man" these days? A cowboy?

And I must re-iterate, for the reason I stated earlier in this thread, the actions of a certain percentage of gay men will not have an effect on young people's path out of the closet. People judge the person in front of them. Don't be womanly and people won't think of you as womanly. Not that difficult.

 

[G-Lexington]

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal."

The word there is "equal", not "the same". We're all different, we all have our strengths and weaknesses, our likes and dislikes. And I think this suggests this is something we simply deal with. That some guys might be taller or rounder or punkier or more flamboyant than the next.

And having dealt with a lot of gay and questioning teenagers, let me add this. I don't oft hear "I'm staying in the closet because I see queeny flamboyant gay guys, and I don't want to be like that." I much more often hear "I'm staying in the closet because I see how my friends/my family/society treats queeny flamboyant gay guys, and I don't want that happening to me." It isn't the existence of queeny gay guys that worries them, or their behavior. Rather, it's the reaction to homophobes that worries them.

Lex

 

[MystikWizard]

mystik, im not gonna go as far as to say that you are a homophobe as some have called you...but you certainly have a seriously twisted view on this matter...

Well, I appreciate that, as I have no problem hanging out with Gay people, in general. I do have a problem hanging out with Gay people who act overly effeminate and intentionally try to draw attention to themselves, though. Just like straight people may act towards hanging out with straight people who try to put up a certain image, or try to draw attention to themselves.

I use to be a lot like you...i hated queens because of what my straight friends said about them while i was in the closet. I just wanted to scream at them that not every homosexual is like that. I personally like to fuck "straight acting" bearish men but i certainly will not be angry with someone who is comfortable with the way they are i.e. queeny. but the truth of the matter is that even if all gays were "straight-acting" do you honestly think they wouldn't have anything bad to say about us?

No. I still know there will be straights who will have some bad things to say about Gays. However, I don't think the level of insults and misconceptions would be as bad as it is today. I think the more you can show straights that they can be related to in just about every way, except orientation ... without putting on a show, the easier the understanding process would be with them. So no, it wouldn't solve 100% of the problems, but I do feel it would be that much easier being Gay if we weren't stereotyped with that Feminine trait.

you say that these queens make it harder for gays to come out. that could not be further from reality.

I respectfully disagree 100%.

what makes it harder for gays to come out is that WE are different.

You're right. That is hard enough. What unfortunately makes it even more difficult is the Effeminate image Gay men are given thanks to the Queens.

I really don't understand when you say "because of parents who are given the misconceptions about what being Gay is and what Gay people "look like." first of all being gay means that you like to fuck other dudes, and its not about what people look like.

In reality, I agree. All I am saying is that we have been unfairly labeled with a certain image amongst heterosexuals. When they think of Gay people, they think of a bunch of effeminate, limp-wristed, purse carrying guys who are interested in fashion and home decorating.

second of all if a straight man had highlights on his hair, likes eyeliner, ect. "normal" people would still have a problem with it and would look down upon it, being gay doesn't have anything to do with it. I have a few straight friends who act effiminate because thats just who they are...but i suppose they should act like a REAL man too.

Well, if they are called "Fags" for doing that, at least they know it isn't true. Unfortunately, we can't say the same and have to live with the stereotypical image.

By the way, if you are referring to goths wearing makeup and eye-liner, that generally is more accepted.

ignorant people are always going to hate and have stereotypical images of gays regardless of what people look like. it all comes down to just being different from the norm...so let people be who they are...they are not the ones effecting the gay image, its the people who are ignorant who do not think that gays come in all shapes, sizes, and demeanors.

Well, the stereotypes came from somewhere and I feel very strongly that we have the Queens and Effeminate Gay Men who draw attention to themselves to thank for that image.

And I will say that I can relate with other teens struggling with their sexuality because of this image, because I struggled myself. Here I am 32 and I didn't even come out until two years ago. And a major part of this was because of the Effeminate labeling of Gays from just about everyone I knew. Friends, peers, and even to a degree my own parents. Now, that I have come out, they have seen that there are different Gays out there, other than simply the Queens who are all over the Gay Pride Parades and now they have a better understanding of Gays. However, this is no thanks to the Queens, at all.

 

[MystikWizard]

My one question to you...

What is bad...or wrong...or shameful...about being effeminate, limp-wristed, purse-carrying, and interested in fashion and home decorating?



My point is....these things are only "wrong" in that they are perceived as being wrong. There is NOTHING innately wrong about any of the above characteristics.

What is wrong, however, is failure to see the beauty and the GIFT of diversity.

What is wrong is "wrong" only in terms of context. These are not things that men traditionally do or are interested in. Rather, these are things associated with women.

I DO NOT want to be perceived as a Gay Guy with Feminine characteristics. I want to be perceived as a Gay Man with Masculine characteristics. I do not appreciate things that add to the Effeminate stereotype that are given to all Gay Men.

I really don't think many young Gay guys who are growing up in their teens, who are struggling with coming out of the closet, appreciate the Effeminate label, either.

 

[MystikWizard]

Fine. Perfectly fine. And you don't need my approval on it either.

That being said, will you let the feminine gay guys be who they want to be?

The ones that are putting on an act and are doing what they do for attention? No. Not without criticism from myself.

If you have a problem with gay men displaying traditionally feminine traits, I'm sorry love, but that is YOUR problem to deal with, not theirs.

Evidently it is my problem. And I deal with it through speaking out against it. That is my choice and right to do, as well.

And for you to ATTEMPT to speak for gay youth on this subject is a tad bit insulting.

I am not speaking for all Gay youth. But being that I was young once and had to deal with this, call it a hunch that I am not alone in my feelings.

The queens just make it that much harder for Gay men to come out.

 

[MystikWizard]

You are quite stuck on believing that femininity in men (whether gay or straight, let's be frank) is an act and cannot be a natural manifestation of who they are.

That's pretty much true. And I think because I have yet to see a Queen deny it at any point. I've seen people raise the suggestion that it may be a "natural manifestation of themselves", but I haven't seen any number of Queens come on here themselves and talk to me about it, or deny that they are putting some emphasis on acting feminine for attention, or for whatever reason.

You may not like it. It may make you uncomfortable. But it isn't going to go away. In fact, "speaking out against it" will only make the "queens," as you refer to them, defend themselves more despite your protests. This thread is pretty much a testament to that.

And that's fine. Don't expect me to stop criticizing the behavior or voicing my concerns over Queens who do so, either. So as the Queens give their big "Fuck You" to society and flaunt who the person who they wish they were in some sort of act .... that will allow homophobia to be increased even more and makes that young kid who struggles with his sexual identity, even more conflicted.

And as I said earlier. If it gives parents a false impression of how all Gays really act, and it pushes Gay children to the point of committing suicide ... then so be it. As long as the Queens can flaunt that femininity and try to be who they wish they were, that's all that matters.

So, fight all you want. It's ultimately a practice in futility.

And you do the same.

People--at the end of the day--are going to be who they are. And your disdain for it will matter not.

My disdain doesn't matter in the big scheme of things. However, what does matter to you is how heterosexuals perceive Gays. And being that heterosexuals represent 90% or more of the population out there ... and makes laws for you ... and has the power to grant or take away Gay Marriage ..... being that I am seeing this through their eyes, maybe it would be wise to see things a little differently, instead of prolonging the Gay Rights movement.

 

[spencer]

Sorry, I skimmed through most of it, but I will say this. It's going to be harder and harder to put the word male and "normal" together with your perception. Many straight men these days are more and more put together, some even wear makeup and don't forget the rock punks that have pink hair, yup all straight.

I do, on this board, defend gays that live life in the closet. I think gays give them a bad rap and consider them sub-human.

However, freedom of expression is very important. If anything, I think promiscuity and/or drug abuse (mainly from a health and mental health aspect) is a bigger concern in my book.

 

[IcarusBurns]

So now we know you read most of the posts taking Mystik to task, but did you really bother to think about any of them? To let them sink in?

Yes.

I would like you to point out ONE PERSON in this thread who said that a gay man is OBLIGATED to act a certain way.

I never wanted to point any fingers when I made that statement, but if I must...

gdude30: Unfortunately you are one of those who can fall victim to the "I'm going to live my life like a straight man"
What you are doing pleases heterosexuals and people who want to change us because you know why?
By doing that you are giving into them and being exactly like them and EXACTLY like they want us to be. You are giving them the control and power. They don't deserve it.

treanir: It all goes wrong when you're trying to be something you're not. I've seen straight-acting guys. You can see the femininity just begging to come out.

Pretty much Transpogue's entire post (#25)

Alt-colorfulguy: In some way I have pity with MystikWizard. Always trying to do his best to be like a "normal" heterosexual man, without ever finding himself. Everything in order to get the feeling to be accepted.

Sorry to single people out, but hopefully this will make things more clear. By naming names I don't want to make any enemies, just give examples. If I have misunderstood what anyone quoted has said, no one's fault but mine.

I would also like to add that before I knew I was gay, back when I was 8 or 9 or so, I was very homophobic. Not because of guys liking eachother. I didn't care about that. What I didn't like was people like the OP. Very flamboyant and going out of their way to show off their gayness. Now that I am older and wiser, obviously I don't care. I like camping it up myself occasionally, but coming from a former, errr.... "homophobe", the reason most homophobes don't like gays is that they think in stereotypes. How many times have you heard people say "Yeah, I don't mind gay people, as long as they don't rub it in my face." Just my two cents.

 

[undisclosed1234]

You're gonna be an unpopular minority here, Icarus.

Right as fuck but unpopular.

 

[Ares]

Personally, I have great respect for anyone who is true to themselves no matter what is thrown at them. They can be used as scapegoats for the problems of many, yet they continue to let their true self shine through.

Re: suicidal teens. Who's to say your uber masculinity isn't causing the fem teens to commit suicide because they know they can't live up to the man's man image you expect out of them?

 

[bankside]

Mystik, you have to decide if people's ideas of male behaviour are based in how men really are, or if it is just tradition. Fuck tradition. And if it is based on how men really are, then men are not all clones of each other so not only should you tolerate some diversity, you should demand it.

It is so unimportant whether a man lives up to your idea, or his own idea, or "tradition's" idea of what masculinity is supposed to be that I can't even believe I have to spell it out.

Anything you do with a penis growing somewhere on your body is masculine. From rugby to hairdressing. From paint shopping to arm wrestling. If you want to crochet doilies on the subway while listening to opera on your ghetto blaster, you're still a guy. And you're not to blame if some moronic homophobe decides that is the reason he's not voting for equal marriage. He would have found any excuse anyway.

 

[StlKj]

Yes.



I never wanted to point any fingers when I made that statement, but if I must...

gdude30: Unfortunately you are one of those who can fall victim to the "I'm going to live my life like a straight man"
What you are doing pleases heterosexuals and people who want to change us because you know why?
By doing that you are giving into them and being exactly like them and EXACTLY like they want us to be. You are giving them the control and power. They don't deserve it.

treanir: It all goes wrong when you're trying to be something you're not. I've seen straight-acting guys. You can see the femininity just begging to come out.

Pretty much Transpogue's entire post (#25)

Alt-colorfulguy: In some way I have pity with MystikWizard. Always trying to do his best to be like a "normal" heterosexual man, without ever finding himself. Everything in order to get the feeling to be accepted.

Sorry to single people out, but hopefully this will make things more clear. By naming names I don't want to make any enemies, just give examples. If I have misunderstood what anyone quoted has said, no one's fault but mine.

I would also like to add that before I knew I was gay, back when I was 8 or 9 or so, I was very homophobic. Not because of guys liking eachother. I didn't care about that. What I didn't like was people like the OP. Very flamboyant and going out of their way to show off their gayness. Now that I am older and wiser, obviously I don't care. I like camping it up myself occasionally, but coming from a former, errr.... "homophobe", the reason most homophobes don't like gays is that they think in stereotypes. How many times have you heard people say "Yeah, I don't mind gay people, as long as they don't rub it in my face." Just my two cents.

Do you know what they mean by "rub it in my face?" Most of them are not talking about being effeminate. Most of the ones who say this mean they don't want to see us gazing into our loved one's eyes, holding hands, hugging, kissing, talking about who we love, keeping their pictures on our desks, etc. In other words, they don't want to see ANY signs of our gayness. They want us to keep it in the bedroom--in the closet. What happens when you, a masculine gay man, want to put your arm around the man you love? Will you avoid doing that altogether for fear of upsetting the heterosexuals around you?

Again, the people who hate us the most don't care about what we do with limp wrists, but instead what we do with hard dicks. They don't like how we fuck.

Where do you want to draw the line on how we behave? I'm not an effeminate man. I wasn't an effeminate child. I didn't swish and sashay. I didn't speak with a lisp. But I lived in the country with few other kids and a father who didn't watch sports much, so I didn't know how to play most of the sports my classmates did. Those I could play, I didn't play very well. I was well-liked, but I still took a fair amount of shit from the jock kids because they could sense something was different about me. I was a little more sensitive than the other boys. Girls liked me more and wanted to be my friend in a time when the genders mostly didn't like each other. I liked it when we got to sing in music. I enjoyed reading. I liked drawing superheroes and playing board games at recess instead of playing violent games.

And I still took shit from people, even though they generally liked me. I still got called a "fag" from time to time. I did nothing to draw attention to myself. I made sure I didn't "act" gay once I figured out what that meant. I closeted myself even further, even though I wasn't that different from any of them.

So what do you want? What do you and Mystik want everyone to do? Hide everything about ourselves that might give us away? Stop enjoying musicals? Never cry at movies? Grab our dicks and spit in a manly way? How far should we all go to make sure you two never have to worry about being confused with anything that might appear different? Should Transpogue start wearing more make-up and sundresses, while cutting her hair in a cute bob? Should the OP take up football and chewing tobacco, and start talking about "nailing pussy" so that he fits in? Or maybe you just want us to pretend to be straight, and not ever dare loving someone of the same sex, just so you can claim acceptance into a group you don't truly belong?

Tell us, Icarus. What sorts of gays do we need to be to make YOUR lives easier?

 

[undisclosed1234]

Re: suicidal teens. Who's to say your uber masculinity isn't causing the fem teens to commit suicide because they know they can't live up to the man's man image you expect out of them?

Who's to say that the perceived, almost standardized, shallowness and femininity of homosexuality isn't causing gay 'unfem' kids to commit suicide because of the alienation they feel from both heterosexual and that 'homosexual standard'?

 

[G-Lexington]

^ Me. Of course, I'm only one guy, and I've probably spoken to just under a hundred gay/questioning teens who have expressed their fears and worries with me. But none of them ever expressed anything near what you mention, whereas I've had quite a few mention being afraid of the hatred they've seen aimed at femmy guys.

Lex

 

[Ares]

Who's to say that the perceived, almost standardized, shallowness and femininity of homosexuality isn't causing gay 'unfem' kids to commit suicide because of the alienation they feel from both heterosexual and that 'homosexual standard'?

Yeah, MW already said that.

And as I said earlier. If it gives parents a false impression of how all Gays really act, and it pushes Gay children to the point of committing suicide ... then so be it. As long as the Queens can flaunt that femininity and try to be who they wish they were, that's all that matters.

 

[StationToStation]

Not to trivialize the subject. But when "My So-Called Life" was on TV, I was a teenager. I was gravitated to an openly out youth on the show, his name was Ricky. He was Ray Ann's best friend, Angela's friend, and struggling with issues of physical abuse and his sexuality awhile in high school. He wore eyeliner, colorful clothes and danced with a straight chick that nobody wanted to dance with at prom.

I was so into identifying with him, he made my coming out process seem more plausible. I was a gay youth, he was a gay youth, both of us latino, and cute to boot.

Having a vulnerable, yet progress gay youth on network TV was a total shot in the arm for me. I knew other people existed like me. I'm secure enough for other gay guys to lead their lives the way they want. I'm just saying me and Ricky, shared a path.

 

[IcarusBurns]

Do you know what they mean by "rub it in my face?" Most of them are not talking about being effeminate. Most of the ones who say this mean they don't want to see us gazing into our loved one's eyes, holding hands, hugging, kissing, talking about who we love, keeping their pictures on our desks, etc. In other words, they don't want to see ANY signs of our gayness. They want us to keep it in the bedroom--in the closet. What happens when you, a masculine gay man, want to put your arm around the man you love? Will you avoid doing that altogether for fear of upsetting the heterosexuals around you?

Again, the people who hate us the most don't care about what we do with limp wrists, but instead what we do with hard dicks. They don't like how we fuck.

Where do you want to draw the line on how we behave? I'm not an effeminate man. I wasn't an effeminate child. I didn't swish and sashay. I didn't speak with a lisp. But I lived in the country with few other kids and a father who didn't watch sports much, so I didn't know how to play most of the sports my classmates did. Those I could play, I didn't play very well. I was well-liked, but I still took a fair amount of shit from the jock kids because they could sense something was different about me. I was a little more sensitive than the other boys. Girls liked me more and wanted to be my friend in a time when the genders mostly didn't like each other. I liked it when we got to sing in music. I enjoyed reading. I liked drawing superheroes and playing board games at recess instead of playing violent games.

And I still took shit from people, even though they generally liked me. I still got called a "fag" from time to time. I did nothing to draw attention to myself. I made sure I didn't "act" gay once I figured out what that meant. I closeted myself even further, even though I wasn't that different from any of them.

So what do you want? What do you and Mystik want everyone to do? Hide everything about ourselves that might give us away? Stop enjoying musicals? Never cry at movies? Grab our dicks and spit in a manly way? How far should we all go to make sure you two never have to worry about being confused with anything that might appear different? Should Transpogue start wearing more make-up and sundresses, while cutting her hair in a cute bob? Should the OP take up football and chewing tobacco, and start talking about "nailing pussy" so that he fits in? Or maybe you just want us to pretend to be straight, and not ever dare loving someone of the same sex, just so you can claim acceptance into a group you don't truly belong?

Tell us, Icarus. What sorts of gays do we need to be to make YOUR lives easier?

Wow. Please stop putting words in my mouth. First of all, it is obvious that we have different opinions on why homophobes don't like gays, so I think addressing that any further than simply saying "I think you are wrong" would be a waste of time.

Secondly, I NEVER said that I don't want gay guys to act femm. What I wrote in my post was basically:

* Homophobes don't like gays because they feel uncomfortable when men don't adhere to standard gender roles

* A lot of people here seem to be saying that for a gay guy to NOT be femme means we are repressing our inner emotions, which is not true at all.

Frankly, I don't care how campy or faggoty the OP or anyone else is. I'm just saying people like that are worse for the gay rights movement than people who aren't. I've even heard this from straight men myself. In some of the comments on an article about Bruno on digg (look it up if you don't know what it is, great website) someone replied to one of my comments with the following:

"Just curious, how do you feel about the outrageous flamboyant antics at the pride parades? Don't you think that these could also intensify hatred toward gays by people that don't understand it's satire? How is the movie any different?"

I couldn't agree more with that comment.

 

[StlKj]

So none of the facts of our history mean anything to you? None of what has been posted here about how it was drag queens, and dykes, and flaming queerboys who got us greater distances in the move for rights means anything to you? It was the very outsiders you claim to hurt the cause who started the cause, because they DIDN'T fit in; they couldn't fit in if they tried.

So, I guess thank you to them, fuck them very much, their efforts were great to start us out, but now we just wish they'd all sit down and stop making it harder for everyone to prove how normal we all are.

Well, fuck that.