Faggotty Me!

[fetaby]

What I want to end is the stereotype of Gay Men being perceived as "Feminine". That is what I am primarily after. That is the stereotype that I am most against.

And that won't happen. Straight men stick it in women. So in turn, when they reflect on gay sex,
1. They'll automatically assign gender roles. One is gonna be a man and the other the woman in their eyes.
2. It's not what they are, there is no need for them to think about this any other way. They are the majority.

As bad as this sucks, do you honestly think there is any other way around it?
The nelliest man isn't that way just to say Fuck You to straight society. It's what he's comfortable with. It's how he thinks, it's what he is. Going on the warpath against flaming queens and dragsters will do nothing but divide an already divided community.

I see you post every other sentence, reach out. Please do, reach out and accept people for who they are. And while your at it, give that nelly fag a bear hug for having the courage to challenge the notions society deems normal, in a time when doing so isn't the safest thing that can be done.

 

[NineOfClubs]

I remember when it was the most popular show on television, all the straights I worked with would talk about Will and Grace. And they absolutely loved Jack and Karen, the in-your-face, out and open characters. This seemed to me to be a sign of coming and growing acceptance by heterosexuals.

Heck, the heterosexuals are way more open to their own men being more feminine, it's a phenomenon widely discussed, and a trend that continues....

 

[Apollo]

Not really. The Cosmetics industry already knows what it is and who it primarily appeals to. It is an industry where its customers tries to disguise or beautify their true selves. However, at the same time, this is an industry that caters to women. It is not the norm for men to wear makeup. Therefore, why do Flamboyant Queens feel the need to be the exception to the rule to stand out, and draw attention to themselves?

How do you explain actors and models wearing make up?

 

[swerve]

The whole premise of this thread is what throws me off a bit...

Having met StationToStation many times, I don't think he really gives of a gay vibe...

Maybe if I ran into him while he's working -- but not "normal day" stuff...

Oh well -- most people have better gaydar than I do anyways...

 

[payit4ward]

That's absolutely correct. I don't want to be associated with them. They give Gays a negative, stereotypical image which further increases the hatred of Gays and makes it even more difficult to fit in with the public.

If the Queens out there didn't feel the need to flaunt themselves in public, chances are that we wouldn't nearly have the negative Effeminate image that are attached to so many of us ... which would undoubtedly make coming out a lot easier.

It's no wonder Gay Men are given such a negative stereotypical image. Again, we have those people to thank for making it more difficult than it really should be.

Well while your blaming all the faggoty queens in the world for other peoples issues with coming out just remember it was one of those queens that threw the first brick so that all of our gay asses have the right to be openly gay and proud of who we are!

 

[saymyname]

^^Yeah, like those drags queens who stood up to the police 40 years ago at The Stonewall and began what came to be called Gay Liberation.

Who'd want to be associated with them?

And then there are all those feminine men from Act-Up who got the government off its ass to respond to the AIDS crisis in the 80s.

Who'd want to be associated with them?

Me, that's for sure.

But apparently not you.

Well said. The guy disagreeing with you is just a sexist, oppressive fuck perpetuating gender roles and patriarchy. Fucking bigot.

 

[MystikWizard]

So to all of the posters on here who are mandating that we should be "thanking the Queens", are any of you same posters willing to go out on a limb and state that "it would not have been possible for Gays to come out behaving like regular people ... and still show society that they are proud of themselves?"

Are you telling me that the only way that this was possible was to come out dressing like the opposite sex, and carrying dildos and vibrators down the streets?

I do not accept that under any circumstance.

The only attention the Queens bring is Negative Attention.

And I see everyone likes commenting on all of my other posts except this ....

People like other people who they can relate to. Anything else is seen as "scary". That's one of the main problems that Blacks and Whites have not been able to get along for so long even after the Black Civil Rights Movement. And it's ridiculous.

However, who are most Heterosexual people, which represents some 90% of the population, more likely to relate to? Reserved Gay people who act normal and civil who just want to go about their daily lives? Or Drag Queens and Flamboyant Gays who do outlandish things to purposefully draw attention to themselves?

In part this may be a small contributing reason why Lesbians are actually viewed in a higher regard than men, since they are generally much more low-key than the Queens.

Truth hurts. Again, people wonder why Blacks are held in higher regard than Gays, and why Lesbians are generally held in higher regard than Gay Men.

 

[saymyname]

I'm actually more of a guy's guy.I like guys and girls so I get the best of both worlds.I guess I'm lucky,well,not as lucky as guys who were born to just like girls only but still,I'm happy with myself and it's good that you are happy with yourself.

We are not UNLUCKY to be born guys who like guys! We are unlucky to be living in a fucking homophobic world! We're not the problem. Homophobia is. Some of you people just DON'T GET IT!

 

[StlKj]

You talk as though that is a fact. It isn't a fact.

Common sense here. Do you really think that those that appear freakish or outlandish in appearance like Drag Queens and Flaming Queerboys are going to help or hurt the Gay Movement? Logically speaking? Do you think that these type of Gays help reach out to the people who's votes we need for Gay Rights, or does it alienate us from those people?

The answer is pretty obvious.

No, the answer is only obvious to you because you are basing everything you say on your opinion. You have shown no facts to support your bigotry, whereas numerous people have already directed you to factual information. Research the Stonewall Riots, widely recognized as the beginning of the modern gay rights movement. The Stonewall was a Mafia owned night club frequented by drag queens, transgenders, effeminate gay boys, hustlers, etc. They were the ones who were resisting the police, and they brought many others to riot for the ill treatment they received in police raids.

Learn about Harvey Milk, someone who definitely would not pass your masculinity test, or Quentin Crisp. Hell, look at Charles Nelson Reilly, Paul Lynde, even Liberace--men who never publicly admitted their gayness, but whose queenie energies were still adored by mainstream America. Time and again, the people who could not pass, like you so desperately value, were the ones pushing the envelope.

But no, you would rather base your limited opinion on what you think is common sense instead of learn something about where we've come from. Do some reading. Learn something.

 

[NineOfClubs]

I'm just guessing here. But I really doubt that MystikWizard is out at work.

I can say that being out in my place of employment since 1986, to my neighbors, and to all my building management folk, to all I know, has only helped advance the "cause".

So, MW, are you an "out and proud" conformist, normal-acting, straight appearing gay man?

Or are you just another mostly closeted pussy?

 

[StlKj]

So to all of the posters on here who are mandating that we should be "thanking the Queens", are any of you same posters willing to go out on a limb and state that "it would not have been possible for Gays to come out behaving like regular people ... and still show society that they are proud of themselves?"

Are you telling me that the only way that this was possible was to come out dressing like the opposite sex, and carrying dildos and vibrators down the streets?

I do not accept that under any circumstance.

The only attention the Queens bring is Negative Attention.

And I see everyone likes commenting on all of my other posts except this ....



Truth hurts. Again, people wonder why Blacks are held in higher regard than Gays, and why Lesbians are generally held in higher regard than Gay Men.

You are obsessed with drag queens carrying dildos and vibrators. Do you also rail against bachelorette parties that go around sipping on penis straws? If you think pride parades are all about sex and dildos, then you have once again shown that you are basing your opinions on limited experiences.

You talk about black people as though they are comparable to us in their struggles. They are not. Most black people cannot pass for something other than being black. They have and often still do face blatant bigotry because they wear their difference on their skin. The end goals might be the same, equality, but their struggles and hardships have been far greater than your limited comparison gives them credit for.

Have you read/researched anything at all about acceptance of lesbians over gay men? It has nothing to do with how effeminate gay men often are. It has to do with the idea that lesbian sex is actually a fantasy for many men. The thought of two women having sex fits a straight guy fantasy--just check out a lot of the straight porn out there, and you'll find lesbian scenes. That's because many men want to see themselves involved in the mix.

Men are visual. It's also why many of them find gay men distasteful, because when they think about what it means to be gay, they automatically think about the acts we perform, and that freaks them out. It's a short leap from thinking about two men fucking to actually thinking about what it must be like, and hence seeing one's self engaged in it as well. As someone else pointed out in the thread, in some cultures around the world, it is accepted for a man to be the top in a gay tryst, but not the bottom, regardless of how masculine the bottom might be. That's because the one being penetrated is considered to be "the female," thereby emasculating him. He doesn't have to be effeminate at all--he takes the cock, so he gets the stereotype.

So, you can base your ignorance and your distaste on "common sense" all you like--many of us would prefer to base our opinions on history, psychology, sociology, and yes, compassion and acceptance of others.

 

[StlKj]

Saymyname, you need to seriously chill the fuck out. Just because you disagree with someone does NOT make it okay for you to accuse them of being sexist OR calling them a pig and a bitch.

While I find it unfortunate that Icarus registered just to show support for Mystik's viewpoint, I will agree with him that you need to chill out some, for your own continued presence on the forums if nothing else.

 

[MystikWizard]

No, the answer is only obvious to you because you are basing everything you say on your opinion. You have shown no facts to support your bigotry, whereas numerous people have already directed you to factual information. Research the Stonewall Riots, widely recognized as the beginning of the modern gay rights movement. The Stonewall was a Mafia owned night club frequented by drag queens, transgenders, effeminate gay boys, hustlers, etc. They were the ones who were resisting the police, and they brought many others to riot for the ill treatment they received in police raids.

Learn about Harvey Milk, someone who definitely would not pass your masculinity test, or Quentin Crisp. Hell, look at Charles Nelson Reilly, Paul Lynde, even Liberace--men who never publicly admitted their gayness, but whose queenie energies were still adored by mainstream America. Time and again, the people who could not pass, like you so desperately value, were the ones pushing the envelope.

But no, you would rather base your limited opinion on what you think is common sense instead of learn something about where we've come from. Do some reading. Learn something.

They pushed the envelope, but who attempted coming out and reaching out to society, while acting like normal men? Who? You want to make a nice little story how the only way it was possible for Gay Men to come out was because of people acting like the opposite sex and doing outrageous acts. Bull Shit. That certainly got the attention of the public ... and in an extremely negative way.

What has helped Gay Rights is, ironically enough, television as far as spreading the awareness of homosexuality. However, it's simply a shame that this medium often depicts the negative stereotypes. Many of which, however, is displayed in the News, as the news programs are always the shows that capture the drag queens and Dildo/vibrator carrying Flamers marching down the streets. Which is a shame. However, television and Hollywood is to be credited for spreading the awareness of homosexuality and attempting to preach tolerance.

Furthermore, how did Charles Nelson Reilly, Liberace, and Paul Lynde push the envelope, if they never even came out? If they would have came out in their times, that unquestionably would have been career killers for them.

And you critique me for using common sense, when perhaps you should. I want you to answer the question that I have posed several times now.

"Would heterosexuals be more likely to identify with and talk to a Gay Man who acts normal in every way, except Orientation? Or would they be more likely to sit down and talk to the Effeminate Drag Queen walking down the street with the limp wrist, carrying a Dildo?" Which one of the two are Heteros more likely to sit down with and have a conversation with?

 

[StlKj]

They pushed the envelope, but who attempted coming out and reaching out to society, while acting like normal men? Who? You want to make a nice little story how the only way it was possible for Gay Men to come out was because of people acting like the opposite sex and doing outrageous acts. Bull Shit. That certainly got the attention of the public ... and in an extremely negative way.

What has helped Gay Rights is, ironically enough, television as far as spreading the awareness of homosexuality. However, it's simply a shame that this medium often depicts the negative stereotypes. Many of which, however, is displayed in the News, as the news programs are always the shows that capture the drag queens and dildo/vibrator carrying Flamers marching down the streets. Which is a shame. However, television and Hollywood is to be credited for spreading the awareness of homosexuality and attempting to preach tolerance.

Furthermore, how did Charles Nelson Reilly, Liberace, and Paul Lynde push the envelope, if they never even came out? If they would have came out in their times, that unquestionably would have been career killers for them.

And you critique me for using common sense, when perhaps you should. I want you to answer the question that I have posed several times now.

"Would heterosexuals be more likely to identify with and talk to a Gay Man who acts normal in every way, except Orientation? Or would they be more likely to sit down and talk to the Effeminate Drag Queen walking down the street with the limp wrist, carrying a dildo?" Which one of the two are Heteros more likely to sit down with and have a conversation with?

I'm not going to answer your question because it's based on a ridiculous basis of what is normal versus an obscene stereotype of what an effeminate homosexual is like. Your obsession and hatred are disturbing, and nothing can be gained by trying to discuss this any further with you.

 

[IcarusBurns]

No, the answer is only obvious to you because you are basing everything you say on your opinion. You have shown no facts to support your bigotry, whereas numerous people have already directed you to factual information. Research the Stonewall Riots, widely recognized as the beginning of the modern gay rights movement. The Stonewall was a Mafia owned night club frequented by drag queens, transgenders, effeminate gay boys, hustlers, etc. They were the ones who were resisting the police, and they brought many others to riot for the ill treatment they received in police raids

Yeah, but that has nothing to do with them being effeminate. They just rioted, even if they weren't femmes the same outcome would have still occurred. I also agree with what mystik says in terms of what will make heterosexuals more comfortable and sympathetic to our cause: being an everyday person or being a flamer?

 

[StlKj]

Yeah, but that has nothing to do with them being effeminate. They just rioted, even if they weren't femmes the same outcome would have still occurred. I also agree with what mystik says in terms of what will make heterosexuals more comfortable and sympathetic to our cause: being an everyday person or being a flamer?

And why do you think it must be mutually exclusive? Why must it be an either or? Many heterosexuals support us because they have someone in their family, or their friends, who is effeminate and always has been, while others don't know anyone like that, and only begin to accept when someone they would have never suspected comes out to them. Some people don't accept until they're slapped in the face with it; others when it sneaks up on them and hits them where they live.


So, while you two want to disown one group and throw them under the bus, it takes both kinds to make it work.

 

[IcarusBurns]

Umm... what? The people who support their family members aren't the ones we have to worry about. They are already fine with homosexuality. And the point you made about someone coming out to them, the point is that they DIDN'T expect it. They accept it because they realize "hey, this person is just like any other person, except they just like other guys!"

For flamers, I see the heterosexual reaction being "These people are weird, I can't relate to them at all. I am going to continue thinking homosexuals are girly faggots!"

Additionally, I never said I wanted to "disown" femme gays. I simply don't like the way they perpetuate stereotypes.

 

[MystikWizard]

I'm not going to answer your question because it's based on a ridiculous basis of what is normal versus an obscene stereotype of what an effeminate homosexual is like. Your obsession and hatred are disturbing, and nothing can be gained by trying to discuss this any further with you.

So you don't want to answer the question, because you already know what the answer is, and would simply rather deny it.

It isn't really rocket science here. Just know that Two Wrongs Don't Make a Right.

Acting like an obnoxious Queen in public is certainly not winning many friends or getting Straights to want to understand you better. And as pointed out, they are the votes you need for Gay Rights.

People like you who are unwilling to put yourself in other people's shoes and look through their eyes to see what they see, is what is holding back Gay Rights.

And the cross-dressing, Dildo carrying Queens in public can't understand why Straights don't want to listen to them or support Gay Marriage. Mind-blowing.

 

[NineOfClubs]

It isn't really rocket science here.

Well, MW, you've been out for two years, and you ignore all gay history. And most of what others are saying here.

No, it's not rocket science, in your case it's a simple case of internalized homophobia....

You hate these people because they are exhibiting parts of yourself you hate.

 

[MystikWizard]

Well, MW, you've been out for two years, and you ignore all gay history. And most of what others are saying here.

No, it's not rocket science, in your case it's a simple case of internalized homophobia....

You hate these people because they are exhibiting parts of yourself you hate.

Have you taken a look in the "Would you rather be straight" thread? You will notice that a majority of Gays that voted would still rather be straight than Gay. Again, we have the current negative Gay stereotypes associated with being Gay to thank for that.

That has made coming out so much more difficult than it really should be in this day and age.