Faggotty Me!

[StlKj]

Nine, notice that we're the only two who are continuing to give his ridiculous arguments any energy? There is no convincing someone who bases his bigotry on his own ignorance, ignoring any kind of real knowledge to the contrary. He argues in circles and stereotypes, repeating the same tired imagery. He's terrified of some drag queen with a Dildo showing up at his door to mark him as a homosexual for all the world to see.

And he's not worth any more effort or energy.

 

[NineOfClubs]

Have you taken a look in the "Would you rather be straight" thread? You will notice that a majority of Gays that voted would still rather be straight than Gay. Again, we have the current negative Gay stereotypes associated with being Gay to thank for that.

That has made coming out so much more difficult than it really should be in this day and age.

Damn, you're something else, aren't you?

JUB attracts a lot of rural, closeted, just coming out, and repressed gays. Any poll of them would reflect this.

In the real world, gays and straights are interacting well together every day, and there isn't this "war" you are so caught up in.

There isn't also a lot of respect among straights for the closeted, pussy gay man who wants so badly to pass for straight. Or they'd all be worshipping Larry Craig.

 

[NineOfClubs]

And he's not worth any more effort or energy.

He's not worth the powder it would take to blow him to "closet queen hell", where he belongs.......

 

[71390S]

hey stationtostation, youre a make up artist? what kind? I want to be a make up artist for a little bit too ^_^

 

[Runewell]

Umm... what? The people who support their family members aren't the ones we have to worry about. They are already fine with homosexuality. And the point you made about someone coming out to them, the point is that they DIDN'T expect it. They accept it because they realize "hey, this person is just like any other person, except they just like other guys!"

For flamers, I see the heterosexual reaction being "These people are weird, I can't relate to them at all. I am going to continue thinking homosexuals are girly faggots!"

Additionally, I never said I wanted to "disown" femme gays. I simply don't like the way they perpetuate stereotypes.

Well, instead of attacking people for perpetuating stereotypes, you could be yourself and prove to people that all gays aren't the same, couldn't you?

You're still missing the point. What you and Mystik are talking about is conditional acceptance. We can't "make them feel comfortable" because to do that is to defeat the whole acceptance thing. The world needs to unconditionally accept gays, meaning the femme gays right along with the butch gays.

Not all gay guys are, to use your words, "just like other guys". There are some of us who more effeminate, and some of us who are so low-key that they'd be overlooked as being a gay person. There are a wide range of gay people, and the same is true for straights too. They are not all "masculine" and therefore "normal" as you think us gays need to conform to. You guys are just not accepting that everyone isn't the same. If you and MystikWizard aren't flamers, fine, its not you. But just because you don't understand what it's like to be one, don't claim you know others' reasons for being who they are. It might be an act for you, but its not an act for many more.

You need to understand that your thinking toward femmes is like that of a lot of homophobes toward homosexuality in general: "It doesn't make sense to me, therefore, it's wrong." The first step that we all need toward true equality is to ACCEPT EVERYONE for who they are.

 

[MystikWizard]

Well, instead of attacking people for perpetuating stereotypes, you could be yourself and prove to people that all gays aren't the same, couldn't you?

You're still missing the point. What you and Mystik are talking about is conditional acceptance. We can't "make them feel comfortable" because to do that is to defeat the whole acceptance thing. The world needs to unconditionally accept gays, meaning the femme gays right along with the butch gays.

Not all gay guys are, to use your words, "just like other guys". There are some of us who more effeminate, and some of us who are so low-key that they'd be overlooked as being a gay person. There are a wide range of gay people, and the same is true for straights too. They are not all "masculine" and therefore "normal" as you think us gays need to conform to. You guys are just not accepting that everyone isn't the same. If you and MystikWizard aren't flamers, fine, its not you. But just because you don't understand what it's like to be one, don't claim you know others' reasons for being who they are. It might be an act for you, but its not an act for many more.

You need to understand that your thinking toward femmes is like that of a lot of homophobes toward homosexuality in general: "It doesn't make sense to me, therefore, it's wrong." The first step that we all need toward true equality is to ACCEPT EVERYONE for who they are.

The problem is that you are being idealistic as opposed to realistic. Sure, it would be great to say "Can't we all just get along and accept everyone as they are".

The problem is that we don't live in that type of world. We live in the type of world where people identify with other people and reject others based on simply how they look and behave.

Once you answer the question that I have been posing for some time now ...

"Who are Straights more likely to identify with? Gays who behave like normal members of society, who are like Straights in every way except Orientation ... who simply want to go about their daily lives?

Or ... are Heteros more likely to identify with people who demonstrate characteristics of the opposite sex, who go out of their way to attract attention to themselves?"

Sure, you can easily be idealistic. But, are you being realistic?

I may be part of the "Gay Community" in terms of sharing the same Orientation ... but make no mistake about it .... I will not necessarily support everything the Gay Community may do or how some in the Community conducts themselves in public.

 

[NineOfClubs]

I may be part of the "Gay Community" in terms of sharing the same Orientation...

No. You know, I think you're not. You're not part of the Gay Community (as you call it).

You still have much to learn before most of us will claim you....

 

[Runewell]

The problem is that you are being idealistic as opposed to realistic. Sure, it would be great to say "Can't we all just get along and accept everyone as they are".

The problem is that we don't live in that type of world. We live in the type of world where people identify with other people and reject others based on simply how they look and behave.

Once you answer the question that I have been posing for some time now ...

"Who are Straights more likely to identify with? Gays who behave like normal members of society, who are like Straights in every way except Orientation ... who simply want to go about their daily lives?

Or ... are Heteros more likely to identify with people who demonstrate characteristics of the opposite sex, who go out of their way to attract attention to themselves?"

Sure, you can easily be idealistic. But, are you being realistic?

I may be part of the "Gay Community" in terms of sharing the same Orientation ... but make no mistake about it .... I will not necessarily support everything the Gay Community may do or how some in the Community conducts themselves in public.

K...As for your question...sure, straights identify more with "straight-acting, masculine" guys. What then? They're still hating on those of us who don't act like you. And they will continue to use the same argument you're using, which is, "I don't understand it." It's too bad! We don't all need to understand each other. We just need to accept. It IS. Nothing else.

Besides, I could say the same for your scenario too. A world where all gays act like straight guys? That's nowhere near happening, ever.

No matter how much you complain and make a stink about people being effeminate, us fags are still going to be here. The quicker you, and other people like you (meaning gays who hate on other gays) learn to accept us all, convincing straights that its no big deal will be no problem

 

[71390S]

If a feminine gay guy annoys me, I won't blame it on his gayness- he's probably just an annoying individual. I don't see a problem with being different. It's the same as being anti-gay and saying "people are supposed to be THIS way." Telling people who they should be only oppresses and feeds homophobia/sexism against men.

 

[Runewell]

It's the same as being anti-gay and saying "people are supposed to be THIS way."

That's what I'm saying. The entire point of fighting homophobia is moot if we don't accept ALL ways of being gay. If we are only accepted because "we're the same" then we've lost. The point is to be accepted despite our differences, however great they may be.

And as they say, "it starts with you." So just because you're gay, and not effeminate, doesn't mean you get to hate on guys who are. You might not see it, but it's still doing yourself a disservice to think like that.

 

[fetaby]

The problem is that you are being idealistic as opposed to realistic. Sure, it would be great to say "Can't we all just get along and accept everyone as they are".

The problem is that we don't live in that type of world. We live in the type of world where people identify with other people and reject others based on simply how they look and behave.

Once you answer the question that I have been posing for some time now ...

"Who are Straights more likely to identify with? Gays who behave like normal members of society, who are like Straights in every way except Orientation ... who simply want to go about their daily lives?

Or ... are Heteros more likely to identify with people who demonstrate characteristics of the opposite sex, who go out of their way to attract attention to themselves?"

Sure, you can easily be idealistic. But, are you being realistic?

I may be part of the "Gay Community" in terms of sharing the same Orientation ... but make no mistake about it .... I will not necessarily support everything the Gay Community may do or how some in the Community conducts themselves in public.

Alright I'll answer your damn question again.

Who will the straights identify more with? Neither.

The straight acting gay is not to be identified with by the straights for one simple fact. They're gay. If a straight is even thinking about all this, it's that particular difference that sets up the road block.

If we want straights thinking about us there is only one way to go, exposure.
And who gets more exposure than the flaming queens.

So all the straights go eewww! That's when it's up to you to step up and be known to all the straights as the "mostly normal" gay.

If you really have so much disdain for the flamers, it should be your life mission to step up right behind them and say I'm gay and I'm not like that.

I'm an idealist, largely optimistic. Bringing that aspect of myself into the daily lives of others makes it realistic to me. Call me deluded if you want, but I bet I can change more minds being positve.

And if all this ranting and raving is for acceptance, I find it really hypocritical of you to place so much hate and blame on other gays. A house divided.

 

[MystikWizard]

No. You know, I think you're not. You're not part of the Gay Community (as you call it).

You still have much to learn before most of us will claim you....

For a long time now, I have preached individualism, as far as I don't like seeing people placed in groups. To be frank, I don't want to be lumped into a Community. I have stated my desire in wanting Blacks not to be lumped into a Community, either.

When I make references to "Community", I mean only so far as sharing a similar quality. I have no desire, as stated, to be lumped into an actual Community.

However, let's not kid ourselves. It's not like you personally make decisions on behalf of an entire Community, as far as "who's in and who's out, anyway". So, you know where you can stick your little make believe authority you think you possess.

Alright I'll answer your damn question again.

Who will the straights identify more with? Neither.

The straight acting gay is not to be identified with by the straights for one simple fact. They're gay. If a straight is even thinking about all this, it's that particular difference that sets up the road block.

Wrong Answer.

A straight is much more likely to sit down with someone who acts more normal, as opposed to the flaming Drag Queen.

Case and point with myself and my homophobic friends I have been friends with for years before coming out. Now, they are perfectly fine with me after I sat down like a rationale person and talked to them about homosexuality.

 

[NineOfClubs]

^MW, you've also lacked the balls up to this point to tell us if you're out, yourself, at work and to your neighbors.

Guessing you're not.

 

[Runewell]

Wrong Answer.

You still have yet to convince me that YOUR method will work, MW. How is what you propose any better?

You called what I said idealistic. I think I am being realistic in saying that everyone should accept all gays. Understanding doesn't preclude acceptance necessarily. Understanding is great, but lets face it; you're never going to know what it feels like to be an effeminate guy. But you CAN accept someone else who is. And so can straight people learn to accept this, just as they can accept homosexuality, something they'll never "understand" or "identify with".

The reason what YOU say is unrealistic is because you are asking us to be something we are not, just because you aren't what we are. Do you see us asking you to be a flaming queen? No. What everyone here is saying is that you need to accept everyone before you can get acceptance yourself. People might be comfortable with you because you're "straight-acting" but you're still gay. If one gay person is hated, we're all hated. Sorry, but that's just the way it works.

Oh...ARE you even out? If you're not, then your entire argument crumbles...I was operating on the premise that you were out in your life. So are you? I hope you are, 'cuz your reasoning is losing more and more force by the second.

 

[MystikWizard]

^MW, you've also lacked the balls up to this point to tell us if you're out, yourself, at work and to your neighbors.

Guessing you're not.

Actually, I am not working at the moment, so it would be impossible to answer your question. The last time I was in an office environment was before I was actually Out.

So, let's move on ...

 

[Runewell]

You're still not addressing what I said, MystikWizard. I'm waiting...

 

[fetaby]

And you missed it. Interacting with, and identifying with are two very different things.

Your friends may have entertained your notions of what being gay is, but do you think they have pictured themselves having sex with a member of the same sex? I can bet they didn't.

So sure, a straight may more willingly talk to someone they feel is like them. But that is where all the pressure is isn't it. While your sitting there talking you know that your not that same and never will be the same as them. So how can you, in turn, expect them to just drop all preconceived notions and sterotypes and walk a mile in your shoes. You can't. The best you can do is say that what they may have seen on tv, or witnessed in the parade is not what your all about. And if they don't punch you in the face you have your acceptance. So be sure to thank the flaming queers for bringing the subject up, and don't forget to let your friends know how rough they have it, what with other gays hating on them and all.

So my next question is. You stated a case in point involving your friends. Have you ever had this conversation with someone that wasn't your friend. A co-worker, a casual acquiantance? A random stranger exhibiting homophobic tendencies?


And please don't dwell on the fact that a person you have more in common with is more willing to talk to you. That point really is moot. It is not the root of all this. Like I said, it's not identifying, it's interacting.

 

[MystikWizard]

You're still not addressing what I said, MystikWizard. I'm waiting...

Well you can wait a little while longer until tomorrow. It's 4:00 in the morning, and I am off to bed. I've done enough posts in this thread for one evening. We'll continue the discussion tomorrow and I will make sure to give you the attention you are looking for by responding.

Good night.

 

[fetaby]

So runewell, what do you think about it?

 

[Runewell]

Well, I'm not so much looking for your attention MystikWizard, but that was a nice try at a final stab before you went to bed. I think I've made my point, so I'm not necessarily going to come back. When you get your thoughts together in a constructive manner, feel free to unleash, whether I'm here or not.