Buzzer, don't make me ask you again for those mythical limited depictions of gay people in the media. We both know that ends in awkward silence
DreamDancer, may I suggest that while your heart is most definitely in the right place, you could be slightly less aggressive to perceived disagreements? The only way to have an actual discussion is if you don't treat the opposition as if they just threw a flaming bag of poop in your face
Nobody is productive in conversation when they feel aggressively attacked.
As for the topic... I am not sure what to add. I saw a lot of valid points, and a lot of bullshit, frankly on both sides - as much as we can talk of sides here - and my impression is that the issue we are having is mostly one of unclear terminology rather than the problems discussed (though those are also real of course).
First of all, there is no ONE type of femme behavior. I can list a few off the top of my head:
- Guys who have some feminine traits, like voice or body language. Frankly, I don't even consider that "feminine", I consider it "gay". Because to be gay in my mind means to not be shackled by heteronormative stereotypes of how "a real man" behaves. Those guys don't
imitate women or something, their natural setup is just less butch, freer, more sensual maybe... you name it. There are many ways to describe this type of behavior, mannerisms and talk without ever using a gender word. By the way, I just spent an evening, a night and a morning with a guy like that - who is also a totally regular dude, not a bar scene boi, not bitchy, catty or anything of the sort - and it was the best evening AND the best sex I've had in a while. Just saying.
- Young guys who are simply strongly effeminate both physically and in terms of mannerisms. Often they are the first type I described, who had to turn this behavior into a shield against a homophobic environment - school, family, whatever - and it became second nature, and then first. They could be much more feminine than the first type, because it started as some form of statement, but they are no more "faking" it at this point, than a man is faking having a dick.
- The continuation of the previous type, introduced to the bar scene. I hasten to add, this is no longer simply behavior, it is now a
culture as well! A culture that comes with its own rules of behavior and social interaction, and one that's pretty exclusive. It could be all fabulosity, or bitchiness, or any type of behavior that mashes well with extrovert femininity. To think they would ALL be bitchy is demented. True, the process that leads many boys to that type of culture often includes some sort of psychological damage through bullying and oppression, and many people lash out. I find it both understandable, and forgivable. But to put even all the guys in that sub-type as ONE group is made of dumb.
- Drag Queens, though often coming from similar types of behavior as the previous groups, are not necessarily tied to any of them. A drag persona is a fictional character. Drag is performing art. Often the drag persona is the absolute opposite of the guy behind it, and in those cases it tells you nothing about who they are. Drag is also a culture, tied to the bar scene, and it includes a lot of cattiness, its own terminology, backstabbing and all that jazz, but those are at least partially part of the performance.
And I'm sure I could come up with others too.
Femmephobia also isn't a single issue:
- There are the closeted and the not-quite-comfortable-being-out, for whom this type of behavior is simply put, scary. It reminds them of their own sexuality, their own
difference from the heteronormativity that they are still either pretending to be a part of, or strongly tied to, even after coming out. And of course this reminder becomes hateful.
- There are people who are not attracted to feminine traits as they see them, and who are not classy enough to keep that sentiment to themselves on the hook-up/dating sites and apps, which creates this annoying tag of "no femmes". Often, those don't hate femininity, and though they
might be part of the first type, they could also just be pretentious fucks who also don't like "fatties" or "Asians", and are too callous to realize that it's not ok to put that on a profile, because it creates a sense of discrimination. You can be bothered to just politely decline the interest of a femme guy when he contacts you, instead of throwing it in his face by default. Or you can be a douche.
- There are the ignorant people - often sharing similar qualities with the first two types - who just don't really know all that much about gay culture or the bar scene, and who equate the unpleasant and loudest parts of it with femininity, since femme guys are the most visible ones. As somebody already pointed out, assholes at the bar are not necessarily femme, and frankly, at least in Chicago, my experience is that the biggest assholes are ALWAYS the jock types, and NEVER the femme boys, but that's irrelevant. What matters is that ignorance and lack of actual interest to learn what's up can cause this misplaced femmephobia by wrong association.
- Then there are the ultra unpleasant activists who are so thirsty for breeder approval, that they are ready to cut anything out of themselves to fit with the heteronormative crowd. To them everything that the straights don't like is undesirable, and what's more anti-heteronormative than a guy acting "like a girl"?
So yeah, in the end, this is not a single issue. It's multiple issues deceptively covered by the same two terms - "femme" and "femmephobia" - but they are actually very diverse, caused by different things and not really subject to a sweeping statement solution.
