Gay Conversion Therapists Claim Most Patients Fully Straight By The Time They Commit Suicide

[MakeDigitalLove]

Why is it hard to understand where I'm coming from?

Let me repeat. It doesn't matter whether it is a choice or not. There are lots of anecdotes about people not being able to change. It doesn't mean these anecdotes apply to everyone. And again, it doesn't matter.

There is nothing wrong or right with little Billy being gay. There is nothing wrong or right with little Billy being straight. There is nothing wrong or right with little Billy being trans.

It is hard to understand because you keep flip flopping.

And no one is even talking about whether it is wrong or right to be either gay or straight. That literally has nothing to do with the topic outside of trying to start a new argument.

What's wrong is risking inflicting psychological and physical harm on little Billy using harmful methods over reasons that are non-issues.

Let me explain to you right here why your stance is confusing.

You yourself said being gay isn't a choice and alluded to it being a choice in this thread. At the same time you said we shouldn't tell people that they can't choose. Not informing people that their sexuality can't change is what leads to people going to gay conversion therapy. Which would inflict psychological harm to someone.

Also what methods are we discussing here that would cause physical harm?

 

[sixthson]

^ Damn your brother sounds like a dick. You have been out for ages right? Why the sudden switch on his part.

The only part that is a sudden switch is telling me doesn't ever want to see me again. Other than that he has always been angry and disapproving of me and my life. I am the stupid one for not giving up sooner. It's hard for me to stop loving someone, even if they reject me. I can't just turn it off like a light switch. And I refuse to become a hater like him.

 

[zombiekiller]

It is hard to understand because you keep flip flopping.

And no one is even talking about whether it is wrong or right to be either gay or straight. That literally has nothing to do with the topic outside of trying to start a new argument.



Let me explain to you right here why your stance is confusing.

You yourself said being gay isn't a choice and alluded to it being a choice in this thread. At the same time you said we shouldn't tell people that they can't choose. Not informing people that their sexuality can't change is what leads to people going to gay conversion therapy. Which would inflict psychological harm to someone.

Also what methods are we discussing here that would cause physical harm?

No, I didn't. I said for me it's not a choice. I'm not going to pretend to speak for every gay person on Earth.

 

[zombiekiller]

The only part that is a sudden switch is telling me doesn't ever want to see me again. Other than that he has always been angry and disapproving of me and my life. I am the stupid one for not giving up sooner. It's hard for me to stop loving someone, even if they reject me. I can't just turn it off like a light switch. And I refuse to become a hater like him.

I completely understand.

I shared on this forum last year about my parents telling me not to bring my boyfriend to the family meet. There were people on here who told me to say fuck them all. I, of course, did not follow their advice. My boyfriend and I have been slowly introducing ourselves to both sides of our families. Well, my family has come around to accepting him as part of the family. This easter, for example, my parents threw another family meet. They called me and personally told me to bring my boyfriend. They even mentioned him by name. When we arrived, they were very happy. My mom shook his hands while smiling and laughing, brought him in, and seated him right next to my usual seat at the table.

I'm sorry in your case it did not work out. All we can do is keep loving them and hope that they will one day change. In my case, it paid off.

 

[zombiekiller]

It is hard to understand because you keep flip flopping.

No, I have not been flip flopping. I believe I have made myself clear on this and that you are purposefully missing what I'm saying as a debate tactic.

And no one is even talking about whether it is wrong or right to be either gay or straight. That literally has nothing to do with the topic outside of trying to start a new argument.

The reason christians are discriminating against us, parents are subjecting their gay kids through harmful therapy, and families disowning their gay children and relatives is because they believe being gay is morally wrong. This is the root of the problem. Don't even try to play dumb on this one.

Telling them little Billy's sexuality cannot be changed is just like putting bandaid on the a deep cut. There are other things christians do to hurt our community other than subjecting their children to conversion therapy. They are causing even adults to hate themselves because their core message is: It is morally wrong to be gay.

Christian groups who have gotten the message that gay conversion therapy doesn't work are now moving on to plan B: tell people to remain abstinent forever. Their core message is still the same, that being gay is wrong. While this is a little better than subjecting youths to conversion therapy, the fight for gay rights is back to square 1 because they're still teaching gay people to hate themselves.

 

[mikey3000]

You lucky bastard. My boyfriend won't let me have anyone else.

Belive me, having two partners is not easy, but very rewarding, and not just sexually. I'd bet most gay guys have way more sex than i do.

I think yours is an unusual experience Mikey. Most gay guys I talk to say they have had gay feelings since childhood, and in their heart always knew they were gay.

Unusual, but not as much as you'd think. I 5hink I was made by what was denied to me growing up.

But gay guys can sleep with women just as a straight guy can sleep with a man. That doesn't define your sexuality. What defines it is what goes on in your mind and your heart at the time

So if a gay guy sleeps with a woman, he's syill gay? And if a straight man sleeps with a dude he's in denial, right? Man I love how the rules keep changing in the gay game. Glad I'm bi. It's all choice.

Did you choose to crave male attention?

Yup, after it was denied to me most of my life.

I'm perplexed by what I'm seeing. The point of our fight isn't and has never been to convince the christian right that we can never be changed. If you've been believing this, then you've been mislead. We want to have our choice, not their choice. We want people to know that human sexuality, regardless of which way they're leaning, is morally neutral. We want christian fundamentalists to butt out and stay out of our sex lives.

Think of what you're saying. On the one hand, I have christian fundies telling me I have to change to being straight. On the other hand, I have you telling me I absolutely cannot change. You both are just 2 sides of the same coin. You both want to take my choice away from me.

Let me repeat. Human sexuality is morally neutral. It's like taking a walk in the park. Not everything has to be morally right or wrong. Wanting to stay gay or to change is also morally neutral. It's the pushing, the taking advantage of people's religious belief, the manipulation to change people's sexuality that we should be fighting against.

Also, let me repeat. I don't know if I can change. I have not tried. At this point in my life, I've no inclination to change. I'm much too happy with my boyfriend to change. That said, if some point in the future I decide to want to change, there ought to be nothing wrong with that. What part of giving people free choice don't you understand?

Bang on! How about calling it a preference?

 

[Kahaih]

. . . .

I 5hink I was made by what was denied to me growing up.

. . . .

Yup, after it was denied to me most of my life.

. . . . .

No.

You've got the wrong end of the stick.

You need to find a real therapist. < And I don't mean that in a nasty way, I mean; for your own wellbeing.

 

[zombiekiller]

Belive me, having two partners is not easy, but very rewarding, and not just sexually. I'd bet most gay guys have way more sex than i do.

I know it's not easy. Once upon a time, I did have more than 1 boyfriend. The difference between now and then is back then I was in college and we all agreed to it with no commitment. Nowadays, I think it'd be a little harder considering I'm more settled and not as adventurous as when I was younger. But it's still fun to fantasize what it would be like, though. To tell you the truth, I wouldn't know what to do if my boyfriend all of a sudden say yes I can have another boyfriend. I'd be completely lost. I'd be like one of those guys in the movie Hall Pass LOL.

 

[MrPerfectMan]

All of this makes me think of my friend, who is infuriating me to know end. I came out to him a couple years ago after making friends abnormally quickly. We were both young and more insecure back then, and I think that was part of why we connected. We were also both raised Christian. I have made peace with it, but he hasn't, although he was very supporting of me for a long time. I think it was partially because he was bi-curious himself. He once told me indirectly that "he had everything he wanted in life right here." I was the only other person in the room so I questioned him about it, kind of alarmed, and he tried to pass it off as a joke about my mom. I never bought it. A few months earlier, he had answered a craigslist ad of mine too, he thought he was anonymous but his name appeared on the second or third email before he stopped responding all together. I questioned him about it that night but he said it must've been spam. I didn't buy that either.

NOW a few years have passed, we're still friends but I've noticed a change in him. He's tried to overcome some of his insecurities, which I commend him for, but now everything is much more black and white than it used to be. He's become much more of a prude. He's made an obvious decision not to make as many decisions that would make him feel bad, and I think it's made him a little judgmental.

Last month at dinner I made mention of a guy and a girl who were attracted to me in the same sentence. He seemed to beam in pride when I mentioned the girl, and got quiet and awkward when I mentioned the guy. Things like this considering our history just infuriate me. If he's truly into guys, I really think he's bi, but it still infuriates me. Not because he's chosen to ignore his sexuality, but because of how I feel he judges me. I suppose I should talk with him about it, but that would involve me having to tell him all of this, and tell him I didn't believe him about the emails, or coming out to me, etc. He's becoming more and more rigid in his thinking (like his Dad) and I think it's so he won't feel insecurity anymore. I sympathize with that, but I've definitely had to pull away recently.

 

[MakeDigitalLove]

No, I have not been flip flopping. I believe I have made myself clear on this and that you are purposefully missing what I'm saying as a debate tactic.
.

No there isn't any "tactics" going on outside of your own where you claim you were "joking" in earlier posts.

I dont have anything else to add.

 

[mikey3000]

No.

You've got the wrong end of the stick.

You need to find a real therapist. < And I don't mean that in a nasty way, I mean; for your own wellbeing.

Really? Wow, that is balsy and stupidly arrogant. Shame on you. My therapist is brilliant and compassionate on men's issues. You could only dream to be a fraction of the man he is. Don't be such an asshole.

 

[justaguy]

So if a gay guy sleeps with a woman, he's syill gay? And if a straight man sleeps with a dude he's in denial, right? Man I love how the rules keep changing in the gay game. Glad I'm bi. It's all choice.

Yes, well aren't you 'lucky'? If only I could get an erection when with a woman, my life may have taken a different course, in terms of the angst and confusion I felt in the past.

Whether a straight guy sleeping with another guy is in denial or not, I don't know, without knowing him. It depends a lot on his feelings at the time. Same as with a gay guy sleeping with a woman.

A patient says to his doctor :

Doctor, there is something wrong with me. I can't get a ... you know ... and erection when sleeping with my fiance. I secretly have thoughts about men, and you know, I masturbate about it and get a ... you know ... an erection when with a man I know. This is really getting me down because I want to get married and have a family.

What is the doctors correct response?

1) Here, take this prescription for viagra and come back and see me in 3 months.

2) There's a baptist church down the road who conduct conversion therapies and help people with these impure thoughts. Would you like me to talk to them and see if they can help you?

3) It's probably just a phase you're going through. Pretty soon you'll snap out of it.

4) Don't worry too much. It's your choice to get erections only to men. Why don't you just choose to be turned on by your fiance and your problem will be solved. Have you thought about dropping her and finding another woman?

5) There is nothing wrong with you. I suspect that you might be gay. It's part of who you are and not something you can change. I know a therapist who can help you with this issue. I would like you to see him.

 

[peeonme]

[QUOTE=zombiekiller;9885798]What I've said is in my case the issue hasn't come up yet. I jokingly said once or twice that I am convinced I can change. As to whether people can change their sexuality or not, I don't know.

My argument is and has always been it doesn't matter. The question of whether human sexuality is a choice or not should be a non-issue. I reserve the right to change if ever I should decide to.

So, say next year scientists discovers the on-off switch to homosexuality as a sexual orientation, I reserve the right to walk into a clinic and have them flip the switch in my brain. Why? Because it's neither right nor wrong to be gay or straight. It's morally neutral.[/QUOTE]

This is a joke? Really?
In a perfect world, number1. Assholes would not have to be dealt with.
2. People would not have to come up with a reason for why they have blue eyes, are left handed or gay.

This ain't a perfect world, I know, that's because you don't run it, that's a joke! ha ha ha ha
We are all part of nature, some gay, some straight, some bi, some assholes, hey, you fit two categories!
The fact that 95% of people are straight puts gays in a place where, like it or not, people wonder why we like cock instead of pussy.
It's not just those evils fundys, it's family , employers, friends, congressmen etc.
To put out the message that we just like them are part of nature is hardly an apology, it is an explanation. Both to little Billy, so he knows he is not a freak and to his parents, because the fucking world is not perfect and they want an answer.

 

[justaguy]

The issue with the whole born this way thing is that it feels like an apology for who we are.

I don't see it that way at all. Why be afraid of the truth, rather than bend it to suit a libertarian argument.

There are several advantages to the born this way argument. Not least of which is to argue against the very thing this thread is about. If we say it is a choice, then it gives legitimacy to the argument, that those who want to be 'saved' can be 'saved' through conversion therapy, does it not? It also gives credence to those in rogue countries fighting persecution for their gay 'choice', like Iran and other countries in the Middle East.

 

[justaguy]

My boyfriend just gave me a morning kiss and I got an erection from that. So, I'm assuming I'm still gay.

Yes, and it all happened naturally, and not by choice

 

[MakeDigitalLove]

So if a gay guy sleeps with a woman, he's syill gay? And if a straight man sleeps with a dude he's in denial, right? Man I love how the rules keep changing in the gay game. Glad I'm bi. It's all choice.

These aren't rules, it is called sexuality. If this gay man is only attracted to men, yes he is gay. Although I have no idea why an actual gay man would do so outside of being in deep denial.

The straight man is not straight if he is attracted to males, or females and males.

Sexuality is not a choice. You don't choose what gender makes your dick hard, if you do please explain to me how that actually works.

 

[mikey3000]

What of the "gay" man who still sleeps with occasional women? We know there are a few on here.

Why is the concept of nature AND nurture so hard to grasp? Not everyone is the same. Man, talk about brain washed. Nothing in life is carved in stone. Not even attraction. People change every day, on many areas, no conversion therapy required.

 

[IamNoah]

I think human sexuality is malleable and capable of spontaneous mutations in any number of directions over the course of a life. I find really committed/total heterosexuality and homosexuality somewhat confusing.

 

[justaguy]

What of the "gay" man who still sleeps with occasional women? We know there are a few on here.

What of it? He's lucky. Just like you are I suppose. You're lucky in the sense that you are in a position to be able to choose. Hooray for you

 

[JohnnyAnger]

I finally managed to dig up an article I read a while back that started me down the path to how I think on the subject. I think the anthropological angle ('gay' has no universal meaning with other cultures viewing it differently) is quite interesting and reminds me of Foucault and the idea that no one was gay until we invented it in the latter half of the 19th cent. Before that their sexuality was something else, and we now put them in our modern category of gay.

http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/06/whats-wrong-with-choosing-to-be-gay/371551/