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Gay Marriage Fails In New York

This is really upsetting. I'm from Canada, but I assumed New York would be one of the more progressive states. Tis a shame! I'm so glad I live where I do...
 
stacyphierce said:
Yes, he had a hard road and lived in some shady places, and I am not saying that's the route everyone can and should take
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Good because that would be totally unreasonable.

Most people are not mature or capable enough to live independently at 15.
 
I feel so gutted right now. It is truly sickening how we can be denied our civil rights in 2009.
 
As a country, America is officially not even 240 years old, yet. In the grander scheme of things, our country is still in it's infancy.

I mention this because the puritanical Christian (and arguably hypocritical) roots upon which our society is based are still very much in place.

Many politicians are acutely aware of this. In spite of their own beliefs, and often their own sexual orientations, they will vote against anything having to do with gay rights every single time.

It keeps them well paid and in office, and that trumps *everything* else, especially something as trivial as basic human rights. It continues the two-faced hypocrisy that so much of our nation is built upon. Namely, personal gain and power at the expense of the many.

Change will be VERY slow to come, if it comes at all. I fear that it will not happen in our lifetimes.

If you haven't already, I *strongly* urge you to watch a copy of the HBO documentary, "Outrage". It explains things much better than I possibly could here...
 
New York will pass gay marriage in either 2 years or 4 years. The state assembly passed the bill by a margin of 88-51. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/03/nyregion/03marriage.html Numerous polls have shown that New Yorkers support gay marriage by a 9 or 10 point margin. That will only grow. I recently read projections that, because of large population growth in New York City and surrounding suburbs, and loss of population upstate, Democrats are expected to pick up approximately 10 seats in the Senate after the next redistricting.

Also, New Jersey may pass gay marriage before the year is out.
 
stacyphierce said:
And we come full circle as to why it is allowed.

Because people feel it necessary to play it safe and not fight for themselves.
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Completely disagree. It was allowed to happen because people developed a culture of ignorance and intolerance toward gays.

Was is the slaves' fault they were abused? Why didn't they stand up for their rights sooner? The simple fact is that they were incapable. They were held in physical bondage by a group of sick, intolerant, people who cared nothing for their wellbeing.

Many gay people today are held in a kind of intellectual bondage, which if you have any knowledge about psychology, you would recognize as just as real and just as harmful. When you've been told since you were a small child (before you were capable of thinking for yourself) that what you are is sick, evil, perverted, and wrong, it takes many people a long time to get past that. The fact that they were subjected to that kind of psychological torment is not their fault in the least.

stacyphierce said:
Safe is not always the right path. In this case it is time to see that safe is what got this ball rolling in the first place. Safe is what keeps the bigots able to do this to the community and safe should no longer be seen as that, safe.
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Safe may not always be the right path. But for some it is at least for a time. I think it's incredibly self-righteous to suggest you know it is never right for anyone.
 
elvin1 said:
I have a great solution:

If some people want to remain closeted and safe, they should continue to not be afforded any rights anyone else fights for on their behalf. :p

Does that make everyone happy? lol
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It's kind of de facto that way anyway isn't it?

Like, even if you live in a state that allows gay marriage, you can't exercise that right without applying for a marriage license, which is a public document.
 
Maybe my view on this situation is a bit biased, since I've never lived in the US but, how can anyone expect a country mainly founded by religious zealots who were forced to leave Europe due to their violent radicalism, be open to the notion of same sex marriage, when homosexuality is viewed as an aberration in the Bible?

Also, there are masses of profoundly religious, poor and functionally illiterate people in many areas, whose primary means of social interaction and safety net are provided by religious institutions. Does anyone expect these people to actually mobilize in favour of something that they are taught is against the divine will?

Regarding the civil rights struggle, we should not forget that Afro-Americans were a significant minority on the verge of initiating a revolt. However, gay people are less than 5% of the total population of any country... How can the needs of such a small (and so virulently hated) minority be seen as anything other than a circumstantial event in the political history of the US, or else as an electoral tool for political parties to consolidate their support amongst voters?
 
axioma16 said:
Maybe my view on this situation is a bit biased, since I've never lived in the US but, how can anyone expect a country mainly founded by religious zealots who were forced to leave Europe due to their violent radicalism, be open to the notion of same sex marriage, when homosexuality is viewed as an aberration in the Bible?

Also, there are masses of profoundly religious, poor and functionally illiterate people in many areas, whose primary means of social interaction and safety net are provided by religious institutions. Does anyone expect these people to actually mobilize in favour of something that they are taught is against the divine will?
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Eventually, yes. But it will take a long time.

The Bible says that slavery and even slave abuse is perfectly fine. That's why it was even used by many churches in the south as a defense of slavery during the US civil war. But today, even most religious people will recognize that as wrong.

In time, persecution of homosexuals will take on the same social stigma as slavery has and people will relegate that part of their holy texts to the historical dust bin.
 
JasunStrikesBack said:
Well... not as long as all those cowards cower in the closet like little babies from their own families, anyway.

I mean... it's a lot easier to hate what you can't see.
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That seems to be your argument all the time or just a cheap shot but there are lots of people who are out and taking a stand but it's still that the majority are against gay marriage.

Maybe it will be widespread accepted but not i this lifetime.
 
stacyphierce said:
It is 2009. The laws that were in place when slavery and bigotry against women was happening are much different than the laws we have now. I am talking about today, not hundreds of years ago. I am talking about the days of this moment here.
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There's still plenty of legal problems for gay people. In my state, I can still be fired from my job just because my boss doesn't like gay people. That's disgusting.

stacyphierce said:
I am not blaming the closeted gays for making any of it happen
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Maybe I misunderstood, but that's what it sounded like to me. You said it was allowed to happen "Because people feel it necessary to play it safe and not fight for themselves".

stacyphierce said:
If you are comfortable being a second class citizen
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See, I really dislike that kind of attitude as well. It's absurd to suggest that gay people LIKE being treated poorly. Obviously they don't. But the fact that they are is NOT their fault. It's the fault of the bigots and the uneducated idiots who promote that type of treatment as acceptable.
 
What comes after marriage? The honeymoon. What's a honeymoon? Sex.

The argument that some make is that having sex, for anyone, is a choice.

Some people believe that if you're only attracted to the same-sex, you should just forego it and remain celebate your whole life.

Or, they think you're a possessed soul who needs an exorcism.

Either way, it's very convenient for them. Afterall, it's not their problem.
 
Sultan said:
That seems to be your argument all the time or just a cheap shot but there are lots of people who are out and taking a stand but it's still that the majority are against gay marriage.
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When gay marriage is put to a vote and the margin is within 2-5% points... we're making huge progress.

20 years ago those margins would have been 25-30%.

I never thought I'd live to see a day that Canada would have legal gay marriage across the board. But there I was saying "I do" at City Hall.

But it didn't come through sitting around and waiting for it to happen. Sorry if you think it's a cheap shot, but it's how I feel which is why it's my "argument all the time."
 
Well regardless, it's not going to happen in our life time but I do think it will happen over time.

Things are getting better throughout time though if you look back on history.
 
elvin1 said:
And so that's what it would take for some closet gays to come out? For there to be gay marriage? I think not.
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Well I wasn't just talking about gay marriage.

I'm saying how can you exercise a right that deals with orientation and not display that you are gay?

I didn't really get your proposal that rights not apply to closeted people. It's kind of implicitly that way anyway.
 
You can Wait 20, 40, 50, 100 years for gay marriage to be legal...its not going to happen if you don't do anything NOW.

And no, I don't think waiting for old conservatives to die off is gonna help either...they're just going to pass on their narrow mindedness to their offspring and continue the legacy of ignorance and bigotry.
 
darkcap2008 said:
Well gee.... why aren't our "liberal" buddies Obama, Reid, and Pelosi making gay marriage happen!!! They got the votes.
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You're delusional. Neither the House nor the Senate has the votes to pass a national gay marriage bill.
 
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