Help me to understand something about the U.S. football national anthem kneeling protests....

[nycguydowntown]

Since the players started the disrespect, they are in no position to get any.

Dump started the disrespect---a total wave of hate and disrespect---never before seen in this country. He praises Nazi's and freaks over a black guy on his knees to protest what he sees as unfair. He's a horrible small man ----Texas, Florida and Puerto Rico are devastated and he's once again pouring fuel on the race problem in this country. His priorities are those of a horrible small man.

 

[ChickenGuy]

Once again, I am NOT suggesting that they be somehow forced to their feet against their will, and I am not even necessarily suggesting Trump's idea of throwing them out.

I was trying to get a discussion about the potentially unproductive and regressive consequences of racial protests targeting the very fabric of the nation, when a majority of Americans, of all races, will always have a certain general patriotism and pride in their country.

How do they ever expect to achieve reform of policing and justice and poverty and whatever else their causes are, by indulging in anti-American posturing and agitating, shoving it forcibly in everyone's face, and then expecting solidarity and sympathy in return?

I get the distinct impression they might be putting off more Americans than they're winning over.

 

[luckynumbah7]

Those pictures are of clothing with stars and stripes on them, respecting the flag is in reference to the actual flag, not clothes bearing a facsimile.

You're mistaken.

http://www.usflag.org/flagetiquette.html

The flag should not be used as a drapery, or for covering a speakers desk, draping a platform, or for any decoration in general. Bunting of blue, white and red stripes is available for these purposes. The blue stripe of the bunting should be on the top.
The flag should never be used for any advertising purpose. It should not be embroidered, printed or otherwise impressed on such articles as cushions, handkerchiefs, napkins, boxes, or anything intended to be discarded after temporary use. Advertising signs should not be attached to the staff or halyard
The flag should not be used as part of a costume or athletic uniform, except that a flag patch may be used on the uniform of military personnel, fireman, policeman and members of patriotic organizations.
The flag should never have placed on it, or attached to it, any mark, insignia, letter, word, number, figure, or drawing of any kind.
The flag should never be used as a receptacle for receiving, holding, carrying, or delivering anything.

In my experience, quite a few people stake that patriotic claim without actually reading what it's considered rude to do with said flag.

 

[zergling]

I'm not touching this topic, not even with a 10 foot pole.

 

[Benvolio]

It would be easy to stop it. All it takes is a conspicuous banner saying; "slaves kneel".

 

[luckynumbah7]

Why is a situation being set up where a bunch of black players are effectively, through their disrespecting the flag, calling into question the cohesiveness of their race with the entire values and ethos of the country?

I saw no disrespect of the flag. The man did nothing in those lists to the flag itself. Unlike so many people carrying Ma's apple pie on the star spangled banner. Or blazed across the back of their ass.

There is one line concerning the pledge. Taking a knee, I'd think, would also be considered a sign of respectful behavior. More like mourning, seems to me.

For value and ethos, do you mean what's stated or what actually occurs? Hence, y'know, the mourning bit and calling attention to the discrepancy in treatment.

And there's an easy example right here. Pretending all the american flags on clothing and paper/plastic dinnerware means not a thing at everyone's family Bbq (and don't those flags on all the ads just look gorgeous?) while roundly decrying someone bowing their head and taking a knee during the anthem when pointing out the discrepancy in treatment between what the concept of the flag represents and what the people who say they respect it actually do.

 

[luckynumbah7]

In my experience, quite a few people stake that patriotic claim without actually reading what it's considered rude to do with said flag.

Or pondering why it would be considered rude to paste the flag across one's gut. 'Rude' rarely gets examined in the light of someone's own behavior.

All anyone really needs to do to see the level of uninvestigated 'concern' at the man taking a knee in protest/mourning at the obvious discrepancy between what people say the flag represents and what actually occurs is to take a look at 4th of July apparel or Memorial Day picnics. Oh god, or collectors plates. Or stickers, decals and emblems slapped on the back of some guy's gigantic wheeled insecurity. Symbols of that nature were/are not meant to be treated in such a trite manner. Oh! Or just walk into a clothing store and ask if they have a flag sweatshirt. They're bound to tell you when to come back later.

That's concerned me for several decades now, actually. Noticed it when I was much, much younger. A preponderance of flag apparel and kitsch with the assumption that having it or showing it means patriotism!, as opposed to the flag being a representation of stated ethics and values to be striven for.

Which is prolly one of the reasons etiquette says don't paste it across your bum. People have a nasty tendency to consider a representation of a thing the actual thing itself.

 

[gsdx]

I saw no disrespect of the flag. The man did nothing in those lists to the flag itself.

Indeed. It has been made to be about the flag when, in actuality, they are protesting during the anthem. One word comes to mind in regards to 'disrespecting the anthem': Roseanne.

Thanks to johaninsc for this. It might help clear things up:

 

[luckynumbah7]

Indeed. It has been made to be about the flag when, in actuality, they are protesting during the anthem. One word comes to mind in regards to 'disrespecting the anthem': Roseanne.

I would've been fine if they'd protested during the pledge as well. What use is a symbol whose myth isn't acknowledged beyond words? And I mean that most literally, the first 27 or so of them state through context that the flag is a symbol that stands for the republic and the republic stands for the states goals that make up our constitutions - and all the amendments that continue to claim equity in treatment.

Then again, that wouldn't've opened up much in the dialogue department for anyone who was looking for salvageability. The anthem's more of a celebration, I thought, and perfectly acceptable for a protest during. Tactically sound, too.

Personally, I was never fond of the pledge. There's an irony I can never quite get over when using symbolism while pointing it out so baldly in the text that it seems most people just ....gloss on by it mentally-speaking. Perhaps through sheer repetition it's ignored. It's only a symbol and that, perhaps, people should be paying more attention to what the flag represents.

 

[Benvolio]

I saw no disrespect of the flag. The man did nothing in those lists to the flag itself. Unlike so many people carrying Ma's apple pie on the star spangled banner. Or blazed across the back of their ass.

There is one line concerning the pledge. Taking a knee, I'd think, would also be considered a sign of respectful behavior. More like mourning, seems to me.

For value and ethos, do you mean what's stated or what actually occurs? Hence, y'know, the mourning bit and calling attention to the discrepancy in treatment.

And there's an easy example right here. Pretending all the american flags on clothing and paper/plastic dinnerware means not a thing at everyone's family Bbq (and don't those flags on all the ads just look gorgeous?) while roundly decrying someone bowing their head and taking a knee during the anthem when pointing out the discrepancy in treatment between what the concept of the flag represents and what the people who say they respect it actually do.

The kneeling is intended to be disrespectful, and therefore it is.
It is not clear what they are protesting. Many, probably most were born illegitimate and their parents received various forms of welfare. Statistically it is likely that many of their fathers spent time in the pen. Notwithstanding these familial handicaps, the players are wealthy, often very wealthy. So what are they protesting?

 

[gsdx]

^ That just shows how often I watch football. I didn't even know they do the Pledge of Allegiance.

 

[luckynumbah7]

^ That just shows how often I watch football. I didn't even know they do the Pledge of Allegiance.

I doubt they do, my mind wanders. I don't watch football. Haven't in about twenty years, give or take. I never found it particularly interesting, couldn't visualize the gameplay, those images are damned tiny.

I just get irritated when people go "Respect this symbol of what our republic stands for, but don't hold us accountable to those ideals!"

 

[gsdx]

^ Maybe you were thinking of Romper Room. That's where I learned the Pledge (right along with 'Romper Bomper Stomper Boo') and that's where I thought it was something I was supposed do.

 

[luckynumbah7]

^ Maybe you were thinking of Romper Room. That's where I learned the Pledge (right along with 'Romper Bomper Stomper Boo') and that's where I thought it was something I was supposed do.

I...have no idea what that is. I learned the pledge in elementary school because it was recited daily until I graduated 12th grade.

This is one of those cultural things, isn't it.

My point was, in an admittedly roundabout way, is that the national anthem is no less a symbol than the flag. And that people seem to be pretending the symbol itself is what's more important, not what it represents.

 

[zoltanspawn]

...
The country is more than either the President or a few protesting players and the common ideas and values have to outlast them both.

You must not have a lot of confidence in those common ideas and values if you think there's something genuinely threatening about the players' protests.

In spite of Trump's threats to them, I still think they're robust enough to withstand his assault.

 

[gsdx]

I...have no idea what that is.

It was a children's morning television show back when TV was black & white. Sort of pre-school on television. Every show began with the Pledge.

 

[luckynumbah7]

It was a children's morning television show back when TV was black & white. Sort of pre-school on television. Every show began with the Pledge.

While I remember black and white was the original standard the 80's had a mix and my parents preferred the twilight zone and outer limits for their tv habits.

 

[eastofeden]

What do you need to understand?

They have a right to protest. They exercised that right.

The End.

 

[Benvolio]

I...have no idea what that is. I learned the pledge in elementary school because it was recited daily until I graduated 12th grade.

This is one of those cultural things, isn't it.

My point was, in an admittedly roundabout way, is that the national anthem is no less a symbol than the flag. And that people seem to be pretending the symbol itself is what's more important, not what it represents.

The people doing the protesting get very rich playing games. They are insulting the very people who give them the great wealth.

 

[gsdx]

The people doing the protesting get very rich playing games. They are insulting the very people who give them the great wealth.

It's sad that you think it's all about the money. Then again, I would have expected nothing less.