High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

[Kulindahr]

Where do you think those militaries get their firearms? The United States is the world's largest exporter of firearms.

Ooh, nice way to switch in midstream, from civilian sources to the military.

That's a loose interpretation of it and of course I disagree. You can have laws regulating or limiting access to guns the same as you can have the same regulations for precision guided missiles or NBC weapons.

The Second Amendment doesn't talk about "precision guided missiles or NBC weapons".

Do you have any proof of any of this? I've not seen one piece of legislation proposed or introduced that aims to strip all weapons away from citizens.

Of course not -- they know they can't go there overnight, which is why they stir up emotions every chance they get in order to try to pass laws which have nothing much to do with the issue they're crying over but a lot to do with making it harder for law-abiding Americans to exercise their right to keep and bear arms.

 

[Kulindahr]

Every time you say that, you insult directly me, the culture I come from, and the entire continent that it's a part of. And every time I point that out, you get silent. It's really depressing

Silent? Not at all.

What's depressing is that you won't face up to being part of a culture that doesn't mind being property.

 

[Kulindahr]

What they want is irrelevant. What matters is - as buzzer said - whether the PARTICULAR steps are a good idea or not. When the idea is no longer good, it will not be supported and it will not be implemented.

Wow -- that's so far from reality Sarah Palin wouldn't even claim to be able to see it from her state.

Politicians don't care if an idea is good, only if it will jerk at some emotions so they can claim to be "doing something".

 

[Rolyo85]

Silent? Not at all.

What's depressing is that you won't face up to being part of a culture that doesn't mind being property.

Now you're calling me property? Thank you. It's always nice to know how much people respect you...

 

[Kulindahr]

And yet the generalizations continue. For one not every culture views guns the same way as this one. And if I don't support the free flow of guns doesn't mean I'm against freedom of speech or freedom of choice. That's total baloney. Stop trying to change the subject.

Not every culture views being gay the same way -- but I don't hear you cheering for the way things are in IRan or Uganda.

Rights are rights. You can't rip a discussion about a right out of that fabric and claim to be looking at it rationally. If you can dismiss the right to keep and bear arms as a cultural thing, then the Iranians and their ilk can dismiss the right of gays to live equal before the law as a cultural thing.

 

[Kulindahr]

Which news?

Probably this one:

Some cultures like the one I'm from do not view guns as part of freedom and we are very happy with our freedoms (just not our corrupt government with Rajoy taking kickbacks in prior years). Simple as that. And that desire should be respected.

You're claiming that only FOX reports violent crime? Amazing -- I could swear I heard about the Portland shooting on BBC America.

 

[Kulindahr]

Oh what a pile of condescending manure. Those cultures are not about being property. That's utterly insulting and downright disgusting characterization.

Maybe some should wrap their minds around the fact that other cultures don't revolve around guns.

Any culture that tells people they have to accept that their government doesn't want them to be defended against violent crime is telling people they're property. Their government is saying to them, "We don't consider your lives valuable enough to allow you to fight off the murderer or burglar or rapist -- just let them abuse or kill you."

 

[Rolyo85]

Not every culture views being gay the same way -- but I don't hear you cheering for the way things are in IRan or Uganda.

Rights are rights. You can't rip a discussion about a right out of that fabric and claim to be looking at it rationally. If you can dismiss the right to keep and bear arms as a cultural thing, then the Iranians and their ilk can dismiss the right of gays to live equal before the law as a cultural thing.

This is a dumb comparison. We don't claim tolerance for all different cultures on everything. We don't agree with discrimination of gay people, so we don't agree with Uganda. We don't agree with gun culture, so we don't agree with the US. Quite simple really.

 

[Kulindahr]

Now you're calling me property? Thank you. It's always nice to know how much people respect you...

No, I'm pointing out that your government considers you property. If they thought you were a person, they'd allow you to defend yourself against attackers.

 

[Kulindahr]

Bullshit comparison. Absolutely weak. And what abuot Iran and Uganda? NOBODY BROUGHT UP IRAN AND UGANDA.

This pisses me off to no end. Gay rights are not these so called "gun rights". Gay rights are something FAR DIFFERENT. Europe isn't Iran or Uganda. Thanks for the red herring.

Oh and FYI, my country has TOUGH gun control laws and GAY MARRIAGE. So that comparison is rubbished!

I wasn't born with a gun. I was born gay however. I can throw a gun in the garbage. I can't throw my sexuality in the garbage.

You were born with a life. If it's valuable, it's worth defending. The gay rights fight is about defending your life, just the same as the right to keep and bear arms.

Rights are rights. The moment you start relativizing them, you have none.

 

[Kulindahr]

Oh puh-leaze. Violent crime? So I need to go get a gun to defend myself? LOL That's not sound logic at all. I don't even care about that Dorner wacko running around. I still am NOT buying a gun.

I will not fall to fear.

No, you fall to fantasy. I know several people who would not be alive today if they had not been carrying -- myself almost certainly included.

So your position boils down to being happy that people get killed by criminals.

 

[Kulindahr]

This is a dumb comparison. We don't claim tolerance for all different cultures on everything. We don't agree with discrimination of gay people, so we don't agree with Uganda. We don't agree with gun culture, so we don't agree with the US. Quite simple really.

So you don't believe that people actually have rights at all, just opinions.

 

[Rolyo85]

No, I'm pointing out that your government considers you property. If they thought you were a person, they'd allow you to defend yourself against attackers.

Nope, that's just semantics. You are calling me property. Because to you that's a decision I've made - to "relinquish" something that is supposedly a part of me. My government doesn't consider me property. I can replace that government whenever I choose. The only difference is that the chance of me getting shot on the street is a 100 times smaller than here in the US.

And I still take it as a personal insult from you to me.

 

[Kulindahr]

More false rhetoric at that. Guns don't defend against anything except for the big bad man in the dark... it's all perception and it's a society of fear. And no, not property. Not in Europe and not in my home country. Don't insult my country and engage in xenophobia. And that quotation is just partisan rubbish.

My government (Spain) DOES NOT consider me property. Period.

And here you've been lying to us that you're an American.

Guns protect against actual threats -- if you disagree with that, then you're holding the position that BBC, CNN, NBC, CBS, Reuers, and all the rest are engaged in a vast conspiracy of making up stories about violence against innocent people.

 

[Kulindahr]

The only one falling to fantasy here isn't me. Thanks for the anecdotal "evidence". I've lived in some rough neighborhoods, never owned a gun and am doing fine. If I owned one likely I would be in a morgue.

Thanks for the rhetoric... keep it coming. It's definitely partisan and based on total fear.

It's based on the same thing air bags in cars are: reality.

 

[Rolyo85]

So you don't believe that people actually have rights at all, just opinions.

No, what I believe is that they have the rights that they have forged for themselves, and they are just as "right" and "inalienable" and "intrinsic" as the structure that is built to defend them. For 20 000 years of human civilization, most people did not have those rights. That tells us something important. Every right we think we have, only exist as long as the power to enforce it exists. Which means that those rights are a subject to change if the structure changes. Anything else is empty philosophy.

 

[xbuzzerx]

Leaders of the anti-gun organizations are on record that their goal is to take away all guns. Since liberals so blithely rely on those organizations for talking points, it is reasonable to assume they have the same goal.

Kul when the nation en masse is having a discussion after something like Sandy Hook about more gun control, do you really sincerely believe it's all being orchestrated under one monolithic agenda and that everyone agrees on some secret extreme home invasion and confiscation platform? Really?

I don't see how opposing all gun control attempts on the justification that you believe some PORTION of it wants total confiscation is any better than taking any other extremist position like let's kill all Muslims because of Islamist extremists.

 

[Kulindahr]

Nope, that's just semantics. You are calling me property. Because to you that's a decision I've made - to "relinquish" something that is supposedly a part of me. My government doesn't consider me property. I can replace that government whenever I choose. The only difference is that the chance of me getting shot on the street is a 100 times smaller than here in the US.

The semantics is when you take a statement of fact and make it a personal attack.

And the chance of you getting shot on the street there is little different from that in the US, as long as you're not involved in crime.

And I still take it as a personal insult from you to me.

That's your personal issue. If your government would rather let you fall prey to a criminal, without the means to make sure the criminal loses, then they are in cooperation with the criminals to make you a victim.

 

[Kulindahr]

Um, I was talking about my HOME Country... the ONE I was born. I never said anything about being an American. I do have citizenship here, but I am originally from Spain. So where is the lie?

Guns don't protect from that. People who usually own them end up in a body bag when they get pistol whipped with their own weapon. And as far as all those networks named... doesn't prove anything. Violence happens... but it doesn't justify the need to own a gun.

Please provide a source showing that tens of millions of people in the US end up in body bags each year, which is what your claim means.

Total partisan rhetoric. That's NOT reality. That's fear. And it has nothing to do with air bags. Thanks for the red herring!

Oh -- assault, rape, school shootings and such aren't reality.

Air bags are protection against an incredibly unlikely event. Carrying a firearm is the same thing.

See, illness happens... but it doesn't justify the need to have doctors. Sleep happens... but it doesn't justify the need to have beds. Ice happens... but it doesn't justify the need to have sand for the roads. Tsunamis happen... but it doesn't justify the need to have evacuation routes.

You're actually arguing HenryReardon's position, that people should be required to face all the dangers of life with no means to deal with them unless you're rich.

 

[xbuzzerx]

Air bags are protection against an incredibly unlikely event. Carrying a firearm is the same thing.

If airbags killed more people on orders of magnitude than it saved or helped in car accidents I'd say let's either redesign or get rid of them.