I do not believe in sexual orientation.

[andy12]

There's not, but from your posts and one of the reviews on the amazon the book seems to be based on stereotypes. So I'm not interested in it.

That's a shame. It's based on the 90 pages of references in the back, mostly of studies. But hey, I'm sure your anecdotal evidence and "experience" are better than a comprehensive lit review of the last century of science concerning anything gay from an actual scientist who himself has conducted research in the field. And who himself is gay and rather pro-gay. Oh well.

 

[andy12]

You get on people for putting words in your posts, but you put words in mine. I didn't say my experiences were better or right, nor have I even said what is in this book is wrong. I just disagree with what I now know of it and don't have any interest in reading further into it.

For someone who keeps on trying to get others to read, you should learn to as well.

You sure did though. To counter my notion that anecdotal evidence alone isn't enough ("I don't base my discussions on just personal experience, but actual data" in reference to published studies) you replied with: "I base my opinions on experience because that is what is real. That to me that is 'real data'." The implication of the contrast is pretty clear.

Two simple questions as well:

1. If you think science has any merit, have you looked at any studies concerning sexuality, sexual orientation, gender, etc to influence your opinion, apart from personal experiences?

2. You don't want to read the book because "the book seems to be based on stereotypes." Why can't some stereotypes be confirmed to be true?

 

[andy12]

I was driving the point that 'actual data' to me were my experiences, since you took a jab at it. Again, my experiences aren't better or 'right'.

Okay.

1. Books, No. Various articles on studies over the years, yes I have. But there are many different opinions, studies and scientific data. Which is why I'm not taking this to be the gospel truth.

Which ones? I would suggest that if you can't really name or summarize any, you're probably a bit rusty on the topic. "Different opinions" is a bit vague and weasels out of looking at anything specific.

2. Yes, stereotypes hold truth. Stereotypes seem to be driving the point here and I don't agree with that.

Here's the important part: But if the consensus is that gays are in fact more effeminate on average, that would give credence to my argument that some men are wary of the "gay" label because they don't want to be perceived as effeminate.

That's actually a big problem I have with these studies: added up, they show that gay is inborn and effeminate but don't explicitly focus on what we call bisexuals or other masculine men who like other men. It leaves a big hole in our understanding. If you grew up "different" and never really identified easily with other men, you have a pretty good explanation for why you are who you are.

So, I get sexually aroused by women. But I don't want them. I want men because I want another me. But the men I see I don't think really are quite that and remind me of the women that I don't want (and the consensus backs me up I think). So what the hell am I?

Men like me don't have an explanation for why we are. And then to see the hatred when others simply want to explain why we don't fit in is quite frustrating. You'd think people who grew up not fitting in for the most part would understand.

 

[tonyboy]

Why have labels? Why limit our capacity to explore our sexuality? I firmly believe we live in such a sexually repressive society due to our social structure that has set limits and regulations that cause us to develop these irrational mentalities.

Some believe in a spectrum, 1 Being fully attracted to females and 10 being fully attracted to males. Somewhere each person has their own position on that spectrum. Rather then have a simplistic order of how sexual development should be defined, why must a label be placed? Why can't we just be mature enough to be attracted to THIS person or THAT person for whatever reasons? I get so annoyed when "gay" men act like they have been violated because they saw a human vagina. Grow the fuck up and stop acting like a 10 year old.

Man I cannot anwer your question about why people place labels on sexuality..
that is a long arrugment and has to to with social values, religion, and many other tihngs..
But I doubt we, in Western culture are sexually repressive, at least if you compare now days to say 50 or 100 years, or 500 years ago..
Society today at least in the Western world are far less respressive sexually than any time in our past..
Now, if you want to talk about the Muslim or Eastern world, that is a different thing.
Two sixteen year old boys were hanged in Iran two years ago cause they were found as gay guys.
In Egypt a couple of years go there were 60 older gay me on a cruse on the NIle.. they were arrested.. not sure if they are in prison or not.
Sexual devoloment.. or more precisely sexual activity should not be defined by who you have sex with (male to male, or male to female).. it should be left u to each of us as individuals to decide whom we want to to have sex with..
And furthermore.. it sex should be left up to us to decide what we figure sex is..

I've never found a guy guy thinking that seeing a vagina grosses him out.
But I do draw the line at a straight guy or a gay guy wanting to have sex with a prepubsecent child..
That is something that no society should accept..
Dude, I like some things that are not normally accepted.. Much like you I think.

I do think most people are resonable about allowing others to do sexually what thye want to do, as long as it doesn't involve kids.. I don't really care if a gay guy hate a vagina or not.. hell he doesn't have to look at one if he doesn't want to.

 

[SLOPPYSECONDS]

Man I cannot anwer your question about why people place labels on sexuality..
that is a long arrugment and has to to with social values, religion, and many other tihngs..
But I doubt we, in Western culture are sexually repressive, at least if you compare now days to say 50 or 100 years, or 500 years ago..
Society today at least in the Western world are far less respressive sexually than any time in our past..
Now, if you want to talk about the Muslim or Eastern world, that is a different thing.
Two sixteen year old boys were hanged in Iran two years ago cause they were found as gay guys.
In Egypt a couple of years go there were 60 older gay me on a cruse on the NIle.. they were arrested.. not sure if they are in prison or not.
Sexual devoloment.. or more precisely sexual activity should not be defined by who you have sex with (male to male, or male to female).. it should be left u to each of us as individuals to decide whom we want to to have sex with..
And furthermore.. it sex should be left up to us to decide what we figure sex is..

I've never found a guy guy thinking that seeing a vagina grosses him out.
But I do draw the line at a straight guy or a gay guy wanting to have sex with a prepubsecent child..
That is something that no society should accept..
Dude, I like some things that are not normally accepted.. Much like you I think.

I do think most people are resonable about allowing others to do sexually what thye want to do, as long as it doesn't involve kids.. I don't really care if a gay guy hate a vagina or not.. hell he doesn't have to look at one if he doesn't want to.

gon reds it ans me know red is not a thang ta do but

sure ya read it ya go change it

not it matter

cause da world still operate ons da 10000 year day calender

 

[Kulindahr]

What do you mean? You don't have a library?

That's likely to have that book?




Besides, if it's that solid a point as you're saying, you ought to be able to give us a link to it.

 

[Kulindahr]

Here's the important part: But if the consensus is that gays are in fact more effeminate on average, that would give credence to my argument that some men are wary of the "gay" label because they don't want to be perceived as effeminate.

That's actually a big problem I have with these studies: added up, they show that gay is inborn and effeminate but don't explicitly focus on what we call bisexuals or other masculine men who like other men. It leaves a big hole in our understanding. If you grew up "different" and never really identified easily with other men, you have a pretty good explanation for why you are who you are.

So, I get sexually aroused by women. But I don't want them. I want men because I want another me. But the men I see I don't think really are quite that and remind me of the women that I don't want (and the consensus backs me up I think). So what the hell am I?

Men like me don't have an explanation for why we are. And then to see the hatred when others simply want to explain why we don't fit in is quite frustrating. You'd think people who grew up not fitting in for the most part would understand.

Now this is plainer than what you've written before. Till now it's sounded like you're saying that if you're gay, you're effeminate, and that's what your books say. It's sounded like you were saying that the stereotypes are true, and any "masculine" gays are just fooling themselves and need to shake that off.

 

[asu1117]

So, I get sexually aroused by women. But I don't want them. I want men because I want another me.

Oh ok. You're not gay or bi. You're a Narcissist.


And that's based off of way too many of your posts, not just this one. The statement above just sums it up nicely.



Don't you have your own thread of 10+ pages dedicated to pushing your agenda? Is it really necessary to hijack another one?

 

[Kulindahr]

I felt this way about his other thread as well. He kept saying "gay men need to accept their effeminacy" as if no homosexual male (other than he) could have masculine traits. I didn't realize that he was drawing a line between "gay" and "homosexual."

It's an interesting line to draw. But if one is drawing such a line, one should make that clear.

 

[andy12]

Now this is plainer than what you've written before. Till now it's sounded like you're saying that if you're gay, you're effeminate, and that's what your books say.

Well, there is a correlation and on average gay men are more effeminate.

It's sounded like you were saying that the stereotypes are true, and any "masculine" gays are just fooling themselves and need to shake that off.

I believe that was others.

 

[andy12]

1. The emphasis on genitalia annoys me as well. When people ask "do you like dick or pussy," I generally change the topic. One of the reasons that the whole "gay/straight/bi" filters annoy me is because it fits under the obnoxious assumption that every human being fits under category of "male" or "female." Does a naturally born hermaphrodite have a sexual preference?

When I was in high school, there was a picture sent around of two transsexuals, one FTM, the other MTF, with their biological genitalia intact. So basically, all woman except a dick and all man except a pussy. The question was something like, "You must pick one." So do you admit to liking dick or essentially a man with a pussy? Yeah that "dilemma" shows the idiocy of the genitalia-based system.