If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

[TX-Beau]

Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

We have no disagreement there.

So perhaps you could answer the question I posed to you at least once already, what descriptor would you find non offensive? I'm not sure there is one, from the tone of this discussion. I'm just trying to get people to be honest or up front about that instead of pretending this is about 1 term.

Post number 98

 

[eastofeden]

Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

Let me answer your question with a question.

Why is stereotyping yourself in one set of proscribed, community-approved ways okay, positive and self-affirming, and others are not? Do we agree on those categories?

Well...one of those definitions (SA) implies that straight people all act in a certain way...one that is different than "gay acting" people. I completely support anyone who choses to identify themselves that way...but I wonder about how they perceive me or the rest of the gay community?...and why they want to separate themselves?

If you are gay...then you are naturally "gay acting" whatever your demeanor is IMO.

 

[xbuzzerx]

Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

Well...one of those definitions (SA) implies that straight people all act in a certain way...one that is different than "gay acting" people. I completely support anyone who choses to identify themselves that way...but I wonder about how they perceive me or the rest of the gay community?...and why they want to separate themselves?

If you are gay...then you are naturally "gay acting" whatever your demeanor is IMO.

That exact misconception is why I agreed from post 1 that the term does engender misunderstanding and asked for alternates.

Tx-beau's answer to me in post 98 affirms my belief that it's simply any distinction at all between masculine and feminine that causes offense, but the fact that I'd put it on par with saying the color of my hair or what recreational activities I like or the fact that I really can't stomach a football game does not necessitate my belief that effeminate gay men are bad. It signifies only that I do not identify as an effeminate gay man... or a football fan, or a blond.

 

[TX-Beau]

Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

That exact misconception is why I agreed from post 1 that the term does engender misunderstanding and asked for alternates.

Tx-beau's answer to me in post 98 affirms my belief that it's simply any distinction at all between masculine and feminine that causes offense, but the fact that I'd put it on par with saying the color of my hair or what recreational activities I like or the fact that I really can't stomach a football game does not necessitate my belief that effeminate gay men are bad. It signifies only that I do not identify as an effeminate gay man... or a football fan, or a blond.

If you saw that you brought it yourself. I certainly didn't say it.

 

[TX-Beau]

Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

Actually you can't find anywhere in here that I said anything like that at all.

 

[xbuzzerx]

Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

If you saw that you brought it yourself. I certainly didn't say it.

I asked what descriptor would be non offensive and your answer was a non answer. It said that you should make no distinction at all.

So do you have a non offensive descriptor or shall we keep beating around the bush?

 

[G-Lexington]

Well... what term would you prefer? As I said many pages ago we all know what the term means, so as far as hook-up descriptors go it is in fact pretty perfect.

That's just it. It doesn't matter what the term is. The basic argument from the get-go is this: "the sheer fact that you felt you needed to make the distinction in the first place is what makes me feel you're not worthy of my attention".

What next, is there going to be a groundswell of support against self identifying size-queens and guys describing themselves as "hung" so as not to offend us average guys?

The problem people are having is based on the feeling that by saying "straight-acting" or "masculine", you're saying "I'm gay, but I'm not, y'know, GAY gay". Buzzer hypothetically asked "If I say I'm bookish, does that demean athletes?" And no, it doesn't. But in that example, he's not distancing himself from the group he's placed himself into. If he said "I'm bookish, but I'm no nerd", or "I'm an athlete, but I'm no jock", I think we'd be in more similar situations. It suggests there's something wrong with "nerd" or "jock".

Well on a dating site I think that's an important distinction to make.

No offense but I'm not into dating fem guys. It's just not a set of traits I'm attracted to. Now while seeing straight-acting and masculine listed are turn-offs are for me, I feel somewhat relieved when someone lists "fem" because I know that person isn't for me.

So seeing "masculine" is a turn-off, but seeing "fem" is a relief because it means you won't have to bother?

I was saying to somebody offthread that I've noticed this only runs in one direction. We've seen and heard plenty of things similar to "He said he was masculine/straight-acting, but LOOK at him! He's not like that at all!" But have we EVER seen "he said he was effeminate, but LOOK at him! He's not like that at all!" Part of that probably has to do with internal homophobia and whatnot - anybody who feels comfortable enough to call themselves effeminate probably is. But then again, it also seems like the terms "straight-acting" and "masculine" work like a magnet - they pull in the eyeballs. Maybe those eyes have cynical glasses on, but they're looking nonetheless. I talked to a guy looking to increase the number of hits on his hook-up profile. My only suggestion was to swap "pretty average" to "straight-acting". Let's just say he got a LOT more responses that way.

Lex

 

[blackbeltninja]

It's not. It's just being blown waaaaaay out of proportion because people mostly only say that on online websites with the purpose of quick hookups!!!!

Who goes up to a person and says, "Hey I'm straight-acting!" NO ONE.

Gosh, Kien. Only online, Kien.

Yes, but apparently these now have to be inclusive and politically correct. Didn't you get the memo?

-d-

 

[Rolyo85]

I agree and acknowledge the term is bad, or at least up for incredible misinterpretation. However I think there isn't a much better one out there. I also think assigning an entire philosophy to someone based off their use of it when there isn't a widely used better one is unfair.

When I see the reactions in this thread to the term, I question if the offense is caused by the term itself or the distinction being made between masculine and effeminate gay men. Which is why I asked in the thread several times what else people would prefer, and if the distinction itself is what causes the offense.

Unfortunately we have a very poor amount of terms... we don't have an equivalent of "African American" vs. "Black American" vs. "Negro" vs. etc. for some of these things so that people have a wide range of choices to describe themselves with and avoid misunderstanding. If I feel the need to type up a paragraph to say the same thing as "straight acting" without offending people I'm not sure how to more succinctly express the same meaning in a discussion.

Thankfully, how people choose to view or describe themselves is not a matter up for your personal approval or disapproval, though it is also not something you need to emulate if you don't want to. You can describe yourself in any manner you wish and I frankly have no say about it-- nor am I in this thread telling you that you are wrong or suffering flaws for your choice in how to do so.

I have a suspicion that if the thread had been "what do people think when they see 'masc' in a personal ad", this discussion would have still almost immediately gone to a discussion of internalized homophobia and offensive terminology.

Do you think that's untrue?

That's the way language works. You can't honestly say that Tx-Beau and a total random stranger calling you a faggot carries precisely the same interpretation to you. However I think this discussion has shown the complete opposite of what you are saying. It is, as Mitchy said... fine, validated, perfectly acceptable to be a self-proclaimed queen, diva, girl, bitch or whatever else. But if someone says straight-acting, god help you.

I disagree. Mitchymo's post spoke very well. I think this forum does frequently suffer the notion of "if you were a healthy gay man, you would have evolved exactly as I have done, you'd feel exactly as I do, you'd behave as I do and you'd view yourself and your identity as I do."

That's the point at which we are saying the stereotype is equivalent to the fact of being gay, however benevolent the intent may have started out, and however much it may come from a place of people wanting to help others be self-accepting. Would you describe me, or Mitchymo, as blatant homophobes or enemies of gay rights? This thread didn't start as me or Mitchy beginning a discussion about how being an effeminate or stereotypical gay guy is bad, however it did turn into plenty of people essentially saying we're guilty of any number of social crimes by association.

1. The very need to define your level of gayness/straightness is already suspect. Straight men don't feel the need to measure how straight they are, why should GAY men measure how STRAIGHT they are?! The distinction IS partly the cause for offense. Frankly, I live in one of the top five gayest neighborhoods in the country and I have honestly not experienced any relevant degree of limp-wristed cliche-queens. Those do exist but their relevance and symbolizing of gay culture is greatly exaggerated by many other gay men so that they can justify hiding they're gay.

2. If the thread were discussing the term "masc", I'd still debate the need to explicitly state your level of masculinity, but the term itself is neutral. "Straight acting" turns "straight" into a degree of... something (a combination of masculinity and subscribing to "gay culture", it seems, as if there's only one), and this is not neutral in the least.

3. Of course words have meaning depending on context. I have called Asians "orientals" when I didn't know the term was offensive. Which is kinda my point. Using "straight-acting" shows ignorance and insensitivity to the very very pregnant subtext of what the term actually says.

4. Calling yourself a diva, girl and a bitch describes you. Calling yourself "straight acting" describes ME. You're making a general statement regarding what it means to be gay and how it relates to being straight

5. Accusing the forum of some gay elitism is unfair. Internalized homophobia is a real and very pervasive thing in the world and to have this argument at all attests to that. We HAVE to deliberately and consciously fight these terms and their usage so that WE can evolve as a minority and stop feeling inferior. Or will you argue that gays in general don't subconsciously feel inferior to straights? Because it's terms like this that do that.

6. You are way above playing victim, so I'll just pretend you didn't write the last paragraph.

 

[TX-Beau]

Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

As blackbelt noted, that its straight and masculine that are not synonymous like you first said, but straight-acting and masculine ARE.

If i then ask myself why i don't just use masculine, its because that doesn't identify someone as gay, it identifies them as male or man-like.

LOL. So call yourself a "masculine" gay man, problem solved.

 

[Rolyo85]

Are you comparing ¨straight¨ with ¨faggot¨? Because one is a word, while the other is an insult, if used directly at someone. Some of us don´t think ¨gay¨is an insult if it´s said directly at someone, so why should ¨straight¨ be?

Inaccurate comparison. "Faggot" is a one word insult. "Straight" on its own is neutral, but in the context used in the term "straight acting" we are no longer looking at the word but at the cultural significance its use here signifies.

 

[Rolyo85]

Are "trying not to appear gay" and "not intentionally trying to seem gay", to you, the same thing?

Honest question.

People who just don't seem gay wouldn't go out of their way to describe themselves as "straight acting" in my experience. I know I never have, and people don't usually peg me for a homersekshul.

 

[TX-Beau]

Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

I asked what descriptor would be non offensive and your answer was a non answer. It said that you should make no distinction at all.

So do you have a non offensive descriptor or shall we keep beating around the bush?

The answer was implicit, I am as I am make your own judgment - it won't change me. I challenge the need for "descriptor."

 

[umjreon88]

I find the term "straight-acting" to be the most hypocritical, digusting, insulting thing a guy can call himself or label someone else. Just because a guy is more in tuned with his "masculine" side doesn't mean that he is "straight-acting", it just means that he doesn't have the stereotypical "camp" and "feminine" behaviours and attitudes that society perpetuated!

 

[eastofeden]

Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

That exact misconception is why I agreed from post 1 that the term does engender misunderstanding and asked for alternates.

Tx-beau's answer to me in post 98 affirms my belief that it's simply any distinction at all between masculine and feminine that causes offense, but the fact that I'd put it on par with saying the color of my hair or what recreational activities I like or the fact that I really can't stomach a football game does not necessitate my belief that effeminate gay men are bad. It signifies only that I do not identify as an effeminate gay man... or a football fan, or a blond.

In that case...the answer is simple. For those of use who wish to describe ourselves as masculine...use the word masculine versus "straight acting". Of course...the term masculine is subjective....

 

[TX-Beau]

Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

I would if it was linguistically preferential. 'I'm a masculine gay' is 5 syllables 'i'm straight-acting' is 4.

Liar liar pants on fire.

 

[blackbeltninja]

That's just it. It doesn't matter what the term is. The basic argument from the get-go is this: "the sheer fact that you felt you needed to make the distinction in the first place is what makes me feel you're not worthy of my attention".

It does matter, though. You get like 50 words to play with on these online sites. You could write an essay, or you could write "straight-acting" and we'd all know what you mean, and you'd still have 48 other words to bait your profile with. To me it's a simple transfer of theoretically unambiguous information, not a distinction of us vs them.

On that note, I don't think my being straight acting makes me better than you.

I also don't think that your being gay acting makes you better than me.

The problem people are having is based on the feeling that by saying "straight-acting" or "masculine", you're saying "I'm gay, but I'm not, y'know, GAY gay". Buzzer hypothetically asked "If I say I'm bookish, does that demean athletes?" And no, it doesn't. But in that example, he's not distancing himself from the group he's placed himself into. If he said "I'm bookish, but I'm no nerd", or "I'm an athlete, but I'm no jock", I think we'd be in more similar situations. It suggests there's something wrong with "nerd" or "jock".

Is that any different from being a bigger guy but not identifying and playing the role of a bear or cub? I may be new to the whole homo thing, but I'm under the impression that "bear" is an entire sub-culture of gay. But it doesn't have the same negative connotations attached to it as straight-acting does, even though if someone says "I'm a bear" we all know exactly what he means. So if a guy says "I'm big, but I'm not into the bear thing" are we going to write him off as self-loathing/deluded/smug/your epithet here?

-d-

 

[Rolyo85]

The homophobic terms are entirely dependent. My problem with your position is that you far too often (imo) choose to take the literal words and ignore the context entirely. And many more do the same. You only have to look at the beginnings of this thread to see people confusing the contextual and literal meaning of the word 'acting'. I have not considered any baggage that may be associated with the term straight-acting BECAUSE there is no baggage intended. Its the like of you have applied baggage by insinuating that it is harming other gays or is a sign of repression and shame.

Secondly, i am being defensive yes, too right i am. This post has attacked a percentage of gay guys, albeit a small percentage, but to which i include myself. The OP made me angry. I won't remain silent whilst people try to impose their own explanations of who and what i am. You did this in your post to, claiming that i'm like you used to be. Its rubbish. I don't see myself as being 'not one of them' or being god's gift to men by virtue of my absence of effeminacy.

1. No, I'm sorry but there IS baggage. To claim otherwise is to ignore decades of straight-gay interaction, homophobic perceptions and internalized homophobia-related shame of being gay and/or gay culture. Just because YOU don't mean anything by using it doesn't negate that, and returns us to my example of niggers, faggots and mongoloids.

2. I reiterate - whether you choose to dig deeper into analyzing why you choose a term that equates your "level of being gay" to that of a straight man or not, nobody here (except for TX, and that - in response to your frankly VERY defensive sounding rant) is trying to tell you either how you are or how you should be. What the thread is about, is the terminology and what feelings it brings in other members of your own community. "I don't do the bar scene and I'm on the masculine side of the spectrum" might be longer but it's infinitely more accurate and doesn't offend or describe (see one of my points in response to buzzer above) anyone else.

 

[LuckysRevenge]

LOL. So call yourself a "masculine" gay man, problem solved.

But that has the same harmful effect as straight-acting.

 

[TX-Beau]

No it doesn't.