If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

[Rolyo85]

I honestly think that is off the point for the purposes of self description or self conception. Many people could (and do) interpret a white identity as an anti-minority identity, as an example. But I don't think anyone would tell white people they should call themselves black or own their blackness to get away from this.

Your race is not a choice. Your terminology is a choice. Duh.

 

[LuckysRevenge]

Mary please.

You come across so defensive one can’t help but wonder which nerves he hit.

I know this terrain, I used to be you, congratulating myself how “guy,” I was, how I wasn’t’ that gay, thinking how normal and what a gift I was to gay men everywhere.

Protest that if you want. I don’t believe you. That permeates your post.

For guys who call themselves “SA” the general gay stereotype is disliked because they don’t want to be associated with it, and not because it’s not really them, because they have a problem being associated with it – and next time you feel inclined to tell your “straight” friends who’re all atwitter at how straight you appear – perhaps you might say that gay men populate a whole wonderful spectrum INSTEAD of telling them that really you’re just a straight guy who sucks cock.

Because in the end YOU ARE NOT STRIAGHT ACTING UNLESS YOU FUCK TWAT. That is the ONLY behavior common to all straight men.

Period.

“SA” is a completely queer defined stereotype used to distance the user from negative internal emotions about one’s own gay.

There it is.

Yea this is only referencing one poster right?

 

[Rolyo85]

Also along with what you're saying, I've seen a decrease over the course of my life in the negative connotation of being gay. That's a good thing, of course.

I think honestly this could boil down to: is it wrong to be (or feel) gay and masculine. Because expression of it seems to be cause for offense.

And I'll say no, it is not wrong. And in my very short experience as being out, I see this disgusting term SA less and less. Which is another case in my point really. As internalized and outside homophobia subside, so does the terminology that's based on them.

 

[xbuzzerx]

Your race is not a choice. Your terminology is a choice. Duh.

This response comes up but in between each of these are people saying that no one should make any distinction at all.

It would be a lot easier to understand the objection if people would either decide: is it 1 term that bothers you, or an entire distinction. People are going back and forth between both positions and if it's the latter, then we're wasting our time with the former.

 

[Rolyo85]

So it's only the low-brow? I suggest you get out more. Even the president must show his machismo by playing sports or having a beer.
The emphasis on masculinity is pervasive among heterosexual culture.

And yet nerds make the most money outside of a few celebrities. And pop-culture is less and less "masc". I wonder...

 

[TX-Beau]

Yea this is only referencing one poster right?

I believe that WAS addressed to ONE poster but whatever, I said that there was only one poster I CATEGORIZED, third line down, I simply don't see any other posters referenced.

English, you might try it sometime.

 

[xbuzzerx]

And I'll say no, it is not wrong.

Good. See we can reach a plane of mutual understanding somewhere.

 

[Rolyo85]

So a dislike of effeminacy is synonymous with homophobia now??? You see the homophobia in the term straight-acting because you want to, not because there is a great deal of truth in it. Maybe your dislike of straight things, exemplified by your 'breeders' usage is the bigger problem.

If straight-acting is the term they've adopted over masculine in their lifetime, then obviously they'll use it regardless.

And I'll continue to judge them accordingly.

And no, I'm not heterophobic. Disliking effeminacy is not bad. Expressing it through judgmental sweeping terminology is. You keep trying to make this about who you are and what you do but you fail. It's not. It's about how you express it.

 

[LuckysRevenge]

I believe that WAS addressed to ONE poster but whatever, I said that there was only one poster I CATEGORIZED, third line down, I simply don't see any other posters referenced.

English, you might try it sometime.

You're not referencing a poster. You simply mention anyone who uses the term SA.
"“SA” is a completely queer defined stereotype used to distance the user from negative internal emotions about one’s own gay."

Nice try.

 

[vater292]

No, they really don't. There are degrees of masculinity, true, but once out of high school whether you're an intellectual or a jock, society as a whole doesn't discriminate against you and it's generally only the really low-brow big machos that really insist on proving their machismo. Which, ironically, supports my argument as it shows insecurity.

Actually a lot of guys do compare their heteroness. If you spend much time in a production plant or on a work site then you really see this. Its a major part of interaction between guys (at least from my various jobs and with my current job where I go into various plants everyday). Its quite comical listening to them brag about their cars/trucks, or stories of crazy stuff they have done, and the guys that actually workout them bragging about what they can do while working out.

 

[Rolyo85]

The very need to say you are masculine implies that you don't want to be seen as feminine. This is the same logic you use to state that "straight-acting" assumes not only a superiority of heterosexuality but also a set of distinct traits that separate people of different sexual orientation.

Ugh. Again.

If I say I'm masculine, I say that I don't want to be feminine. It MAY mean that I dislike femininity OR that I just don't want to be feminine. Either way, it's a personal preference. I am not calling anyone less than me. Furthermore, being masculine is a subject to interpretation.

If I say I am SA, I am saying that I act not like what I am, which is gay. I can't not be gay, yet I act as the opposite of what I am. There's already a serious conflict here. Then I actually mean "masculine", which generalizes the entire gay minority as the opposite. And since I am so in conflict with being who I am that I chose a term describing the opposite of it, clearly it's very bad.

I'm doing a logic line here, not saying that's what goes in people's heads.

 

[LuckysRevenge]

And yet nerds make the most money outside of a few celebrities. And pop-culture is less and less "masc". I wonder...

If pop culture was the reference point for society then gays would have no problem being out and fabulous.
In most of the country and the world, this is not the case.
Masculinity is a measuring stick for heterosexual men and any interaction with such men makes this painfully obvious outside certain niche or privileged circles.

 

[TX-Beau]

You're not referencing a poster. You simply mention anyone who uses the term SA.
"“SA” is a completely queer defined stereotype used to distance the user from negative internal emotions about one’s own gay."

Nice try.

Try? I believe the poster I was responding to was clearly identified. We even had an argument about go look. Did you omit that part on purpose - come on, you can tell me.

Reading Comprehension - you might want to try it sometime.

 

[LuckysRevenge]

Ugh. Again.

If I say I'm masculine, I say that I don't want to be feminine. It MAY mean that I dislike femininity OR that I just don't want to be feminine. Either way, it's a personal preference. I am not calling anyone less than me. Furthermore, being masculine is a subject to interpretation.

If I say I am SA, I am saying that I act not like what I am, which is gay. I can't not be gay, yet I act as the opposite of what I am. There's already a serious conflict here. Then I actually mean "masculine", which generalizes the entire gay minority as the opposite. And since I am so in conflict with being who I am that I chose a term describing the opposite of it, clearly it's very bad.

I'm doing a logic line here, not saying that's what goes in people's heads.

The conflict is who I am and who society perceives me as. That is what you're not getting.

 

[TX-Beau]

If pop culture was the reference point for society then gays would have no problem being out and fabulous.
In most of the country and the world, this is not the case.
Masculinity is a measuring stick for heterosexual men and any interaction with such men makes this painfully obvious outside certain niche or privileged circles.

No, you are simply wrong, and that's a FACT! Now DON't say it again!

 

[Rolyo85]

I think if we acknowledge that some gay men feel comfortable and self-empowered viewing themselves in a feminine lens, even including using feminine pronouns for themselves, is a good and positive thing we should accept and celebrate, then the community should also respect people who do not do so. And when we celebrate the former openly it is dishonest to say there's utterly no need for any distinction of any kind or that insecure people only make up that there is ever any call for distinction.

Again - the two aren't the same. Celebrating the feminine side of a man is a statement and it celebrates diversity. The opposite is what straight culture already expects. There's nothing to celebrate there. There's nothing to be ashamed of either, but there should be, when the term used spits on this same diversity.

 

[xbuzzerx]

Masculinity is a measuring stick for heterosexual men and any interaction with such men makes this painfully obvious outside certain niche or privileged circles.

What? Maybe I misunderstood, but did you just obliterate all masculinity from any gay men here?

 

[bankside]

Re: If you ever say you are "straight acting" that is a copout

Thankfully, how people choose to view or describe themselves is not a matter up for your personal approval or disapproval, though it is also not something you need to emulate if you don't want to. You can describe yourself in any manner you wish and I frankly have no say about it-- nor am I in this thread telling you that you are wrong or suffering flaws for your choice in how to do so.

No, people don't get to "define themselves." Words have meanings independent of people's random utterances of them. Guys who regularly enjoy sucking dick do not get to label themselves as straight, because that is not what the word "straight" means. Similarly the concepts of masculinity and heterosexuality and straight-acting actually do mean something. How people "choose to view themselves" may have nothing to do with it. In which case, it's not a question of "honouring their self-concept" or whatever modern anti-positivist mumbo jumbo" but of educating them as to the meaning of these words.

Words like "masculinity" and "heterosexuality" and "homosexuality" are interesting because the academic history behind them is relatively shallow compared to other sociopolitical concepts like "power" or "authority" or "will." But that means there is just more need of education. Not more need of random people using the words in inconsistent and contradictory ways.

 

[Rolyo85]

Something potential to be learned here. Attitude is also a choice. If you're gonna kick up a fuss over trivial things like what other gay guys label themselves as....

Yeah, many white men still think it's also "trivial" to call black people niggers.

 

[xbuzzerx]

Again - the two aren't the same. Celebrating the feminine side of a man is a statement and it celebrates diversity. The opposite is what straight culture already expects. There's nothing to celebrate there. There's nothing to be ashamed of either, but there should be, when the term used spits on this same diversity.

Rolyo this reads dangerously closely to "if you are masculine, and acknowledge and affirm it, you're aiding the enemy." Which should be a ridiculous statement if as has been posited all over this thread, straight men don't have a monopoly on masculinity or femininity.